Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[azdave35]

I don't know anything about Death Valley Scotty.

I used to be ambivalent, even doubtful about the Pegleg story, but changed my opinion when I found out that a number of other searchers have found black-stained gold nuggets in the same general vicinity of Pegleg's apparent discovery. This indicated to me that the unusual nuggets are real and sporadically dispersed in that desert. This fact adds much credence to Smith's story - enough for me to consider it "probable". Also, an excellent book, Golden Mirages, by Philip A. Bailey, provided much verifiable history about Smith and that desert country. If that part of the world was accessible to me, it'd be a possibility for an interesting winter project.

the reason for the black coating on peglegs gold is a manganese coating...matter of fact there is a source for some black coated nuggets locally. i have seen one of them...the old guy had them since the 50's and the coating started to wear through in places....another guy has found some magnetic nuggets not far from morristown ...10 miles southeast of wickenburg...the gold has just enough iron alloyed with it to make it stick to a magnet but you wouldn't know it to look at the gold

 

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[Azquester]

the reason for the black coating on peglegs gold is a manganese coating...matter of fact there is a source for some black coated nuggets locally. i have seen one of them...the old guy had them since the 50's and the coating started to wear through in places....another guy has found some magnetic nuggets not far from morristown ...10 miles southeast of wickenburg...the gold has just enough iron alloyed with it to make it stick to a magnet but you wouldn't know it to look at the gold

Now that's funny, I have a nugget of that very gold I won in a raffle!

I was fooling around with a magnet one day and it jumped up on it!

I still have it...I told the club they needed to screen their nuggets a little better...manganese coating was cleaned off...looked just like a gold nugget.

 

[Carl995]

200 Ounces of Gold is a lot for a cigar box under a death bed! Must have been some of those Giant exploding cigars!
Jewelry grade nuggets maybe, but, 200 ounces seems far fetched to the normal observer.

I'm heading for the Pit Mine right now and will lose service soon. It's going to be 123 degrees today so I got to get in there and out quickly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You might download the bar code scanner app on your phone.
That way you can scan the gold bars into your account, save yourself from carrying all that gold......just say'in

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I have never claimed that the Pit Mine is the LDM, nor have I claimed that the two holes that were found were Jacobs caches. On the other hand, it's possible.

Take care,

Joe

When you had posted this, I remembered reading a post by you at some time earlier, in which you had indeed stated that it was your belief that the Pit mine is the LDM. Here is that quote:

As you know, I am one of those who have speculated where the LDM is. Never having searched for it, that may put me at a disadvantage, but I believe the LDM is what is being called the Silver Chief today. Without ore, it still has a great deal of "evidence" that fits. That's no guarantee, but it's a start. Jesse Feldman and David Leach have also stated their belief that it's the LDM. My guess is that Jack SanFelice also believes it, although I don't think he has voiced that

I can send you the link for that quote if you wish, but it was on 'another channel' as they say back in 2009. So you did at one time state that it was your belief that the Pit, frequently being referred to as the Silver Chief, is or was the LDM. If you have changed your views you are certainly entitled to that, or if you simply forgot etc; just had the impression from that previous post that it was your own personal belief about the LDM being the Pit/Silver Chief.

I did not go hunting for that quote, ran across it as that thread recently got a new post suggesting to re-read it. Still don't know why a certain person decided to try to stir things up on that 'other channel' with the assay cover sheet thing, unless that person thought he could fool everyone?

I hope all is well with you Joe, and hope you are keeping the AC going full bore. Have got a little dose of the heat here too, 107 yesterday so brought home an AC today. I guess we are getting older after all, finally caved in to get an air conditioner! (haha)
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geeze Oro, ya mean that like me, he's not perfect ? Air conditioner ?? sheesh even with it is 90 F in fornt of the computer, the way the room is laid out, the split mini doesn't cover the computer section.

 

[Azquester]

I'm sorry about the Heat in the Supers thread. It's my fault for putting and "Apostrophe" in the title at the end of the word "Superstition's".

The heat was so bad up there I never made it all the way again. I had to turn around when I had sucked down half my water. I was right about the heavy almost impassable brush. I could track the deer right through it as if it wasn't there. I won't be doing that again anytime soon!

I was researching deaths by heat in those mountains and it's a long term problem. I think we should take those water tanks no longer needed by the Illegals as they just simply walk across now and put them in the Superstition trail systems as more people are dying in there than ever happened along the southwest border. Oh wait, it's only white people dying I guess that doesn't count! The Sherriff says the same thing every time someone needs a rescue or dies he goes off on the same old talking points lecturing hikers on going out when it's to hot and getting his SARS Rescue Team involved putting then at risk. Yet he does nothing about it but gripe.

It's amazing how many have perished in there over the years. Jacob would've been proud of his legacy. Luring so many to their untimely deaths! So many souls to help him guard his Mine!
I think he was an old Warlock using his power after his death for collecting souls for slaves in the afterlife. An army of the dead. I'd hate to run into that late one moonless night.

Jacob's army of the Lost Dutchman!

 

[Azquester]

200 Ounces of Gold is a lot for a cigar box under a death bed! Must have been some of those Giant exploding cigars!
Jewelry grade nuggets maybe, but, 200 ounces seems far fetched to the normal observer.

I'm heading for the Pit Mine right now and will lose service soon. It's going to be 123 degrees today so I got to get in there and out quickly.
----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------

You might download the bar code scanner app on your phone.
That way you can scan the gold bars into your account, save yourself from carrying all that gold......just say'in

Gold Bar Scanner? A great Idea! I think a particle matrix ore sampler would do! I have an account at Fort Knox! I don't want it in my Well's Fargo account they'd just say it was from a stagecoach robbery and keep it! But you have a good idea there, what about a water source app? Or a rescue beacon? Why aren't they allowed to use a copter for search and rescue? By the time they get there in almost every instance those in trouble are dead.

 

[EarnieP]

"...I was right about the heavy almost impassable brush. I could track the deer right through it as if it wasn't there. I won't be doing that again anytime soon!..."

Take a Silky with you next time Bill, cut your own path into the mine, should only take a year or two. Of course that makes it very easy for the 'La Leyenda Negra' Rangers to track you down. Remember, it's a separate fine for each bush and tree you cut down, but the gov't can then use the money to build new trials.
Kind of reverse Catch-22 type thing, you get fined for building new trail, they use the fine-money to build new trail.

 

[cactusjumper]

When you had posted this, I remembered reading a post by you at some time earlier, in which you had indeed stated that it was your belief that the Pit mine is the LDM. Here is that quote:



I can send you the link for that quote if you wish, but it was on 'another channel' as they say back in 2009. So you did at one time state that it was your belief that the Pit, frequently being referred to as the Silver Chief, is or was the LDM. If you have changed your views you are certainly entitled to that, or if you simply forgot etc; just had the impression from that previous post that it was your own personal belief about the LDM being the Pit/Silver Chief.

I did not go hunting for that quote, ran across it as that thread recently got a new post suggesting to re-read it. Still don't know why a certain person decided to try to stir things up on that 'other channel' with the assay cover sheet thing, unless that person thought he could fool everyone?

I hope all is well with you Joe, and hope you are keeping the AC going full bore. Have got a little dose of the heat here too, 107 yesterday so brought home an AC today. I guess we are getting older after all, finally caved in to get an air conditioner! (haha)
Roy

Hi Roy,

Hope all is well with you and you are recovering rapidly.

I have said many times that I believe the Pit Mine is the LDM. That, in my mind, is totally different than saying/claiming it is the LDM. I have also made other statements about any number of subject where I only state what I believe. On occasion, I am proven wrong in those beliefs. When that happens I admit I was wrong in what I believed. It just doesn't seem that big of a deal. Happens to all of us, except for Don Jose, of course.

The fact is, I'm not alone in that belief. A number of well respected Dutch Hunter's have said the same thing. Most here, know who those people are, so I won't be naming them here.

Just so you know, when it hits 107 here, we start looking for our sweaters.

Thank you for the post. I appreciate it when folks question what I write. Shows they are paying attention to me. As I have mentioned before, I question everyone, including myself. I used to believe what I was told, but someone I considered a good friend lied to me for years. Cured me of that little habit.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe, ya got it perfectly -- When that happens I admit I was wrong in what I believed. It just doesn't seem that big of a deal. Happens to all of us, except for Don Jose, of course.



I always leave plentyof squirm room, since I have been shown to be , errr shall we say , misinterpreted or miss quoted or whatever join me in Coffee? Roy is springing for it

 

[azdave35]

When you had posted this, I remembered reading a post by you at some time earlier, in which you had indeed stated that it was your belief that the Pit mine is the LDM. Here is that quote:



I can send you the link for that quote if you wish, but it was on 'another channel' as they say back in 2009. So you did at one time state that it was your belief that the Pit, frequently being referred to as the Silver Chief, is or was the LDM. If you have changed your views you are certainly entitled to that, or if you simply forgot etc; just had the impression from that previous post that it was your own personal belief about the LDM being the Pit/Silver Chief.

I did not go hunting for that quote, ran across it as that thread recently got a new post suggesting to re-read it. Still don't know why a certain person decided to try to stir things up on that 'other channel' with the assay cover sheet thing, unless that person thought he could fool everyone?

I hope all is well with you Joe, and hope you are keeping the AC going full bore. Have got a little dose of the heat here too, 107 yesterday so brought home an AC today. I guess we are getting older after all, finally caved in to get an air conditioner! (haha)
Roy

roy...you would be surprised at the number of people around here that believe the pit is the ldm...

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Roy,

Hope all is well with you and you are recovering rapidly.

I have said many times that I believe the Pit Mine is the LDM. That, in my mind, is totally different than saying/claiming it is the LDM. I have also made other statements about any number of subject where I only state what I believe. On occasion, I am proven wrong in those beliefs. When that happens I admit I was wrong in what I believed. It just doesn't seem that big of a deal. Happens to all of us, except for Don Jose, of course.

The fact is, I'm not alone in that belief. A number of well respected Dutch Hunter's have said the same thing. Most here, know who those people are, so I won't be naming them here.

Just so you know, when it hits 107 here, we start looking for our sweaters.

Thank you for the post. I appreciate it when folks question what I write. Shows they are paying attention to me. As I have mentioned before, I question everyone, including myself. I used to believe what I was told, but someone I considered a good friend lied to me for years. Cured me of that little habit.

I agree there is a distinction between saying I believe, versus stating as a fact. So I conclude that your opinion or belief remains the same?

　
Also have to agree that there are pathological liars out there, that can lead people to trust them. Some are practically expert at it, and IMHO the person you refer to falls in that category. He certainly had most people fooled for quite some time.

AZDave35 wrote

roy...you would be surprised at the number of people around here that believe the pit is the ldm...

No I wouldn't.


　
　
　
　

 

[azdave35]

[/FONT]
I agree there is a distinction between saying I believe, versus stating as a fact. So I conclude that your opinion or belief remains the same?

　
Also have to agree that there are pathological liars out there, that can lead people to trust them. Some are practically expert at it, and IMHO the person you refer to falls in that category. He certainly had most people fooled for quite some time.

AZDave35 wrote


No I wouldn't.


　
　
　
　

you might even be convinced yourself if you talk to the right people next time you come down

 

[EarnieP]

you might even be convinced yourself if you talk to the right people next time you come down

Will that talk include visual aids?

 

[Rick4570]

if Jacob Waltz was to have covered the mine opening with iron wood what areas in the superstitions contains that wood? i would think it would have had to be close to the mine. that"s the areas that i would be looking at. i have only been in the superstitions only once and that was back in 1972. and at that time the major area of search was the area around Black Top Mesa. but now after reading these post it"s a good possiablity that the pit mine might be where waltz was getting some gold or it is close by.
Rick

 

[cactusjumper]

Rick,

I have serious doubts that Waltz or the Apache used any of the trees, sometimes, classified as "ironwood". It does make for an interesting story though.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

I was told by the man who first found the Pit Mine, in modern times, that it was sealed or covered. I mentioned, that gives some credence to the Holmes story. He replied "yes", but I didn't pursue the details of how it was sealed........Don't know why, just getting to old for this I suppose.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Carl995]

if Jacob Waltz was to have covered the mine opening with iron wood what areas in the superstitions contains that wood? i would think it would have had to be close to the mine. that"s the areas that i would be looking at. i have only been in the superstitions only once and that was back in 1972. and at that time the major area of search was the area around Black Top Mesa. but now after reading these post it"s a good possiablity that the pit mine might be where waltz was getting some gold or it is close by.
Rick

There was a perfect circle of trees on top of the coyote claim that these trees originated from Mexico, my dad showed me.
I can't remember the name of the trees. Might be in my dads paperwork.

 

[Oroblanco]

AZDave35 wrote

you might even be convinced yourself if you talk to the right people next time you come down

Don't place any bets on that idea. I don't judge things by what someone says, on the other hand rocks do not lie. Do you think that I have not talked to "the right people" Dave?

EarnieP wrote

Will that talk include visual aids?

We can only hope!

　
Rick4570 wrote

if Jacob Waltz was to have covered the mine opening with iron wood what areas in the superstitions contains that wood? i would think it would have had to be close to the mine. that"s the areas that i would be looking at. i have only been in the superstitions only once and that was back in 1972. and at that time the major area of search was the area around Black Top Mesa. but now after reading these post it"s a good possiablity that the pit mine might be where waltz was getting some gold or it is close by.
Rick

I have to respectfully disagree with what our mutual friend Cactusjumper posted, as it makes perfect sense for Waltz to have covered up his mine, and ironwood is notoriously rot-resistant. It is also quite difficult to cut, but not impossible either. The amount of 'logs' required is a big question, for we have two very different descriptions of Waltz's mine. One description has it as a huge funnel shaped pit, which would require a LOT of logs, and the other description states it has an opening no larger than a barrel. That would not require many logs to make a platform. In fact you could load all the needed logs on one mule. Your point about the area where desert ironwood is found is a good one too, as it is very frost tender so only grows in certain limited areas. Unfortunately Waltz may well have obtained the logs from some distance away from his mine, and just packed them to it.
　

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, I have two different carvings in iron wood done by the Seri Indians as a token of our friendship.. One of a hawk, about 18 " tall. the other of a sittig duck scaning the heavens about 12 inches all. Both are of ironwood, and are very heavy. I can immagine that iron wood logs must weigh in excess of 200 lbs, can't find any of that size anymore.., if you could origionally.