Rather than quote and reply which makes the post very long, I will try to keep this one brief, or at least shorter than usual.
Yes it would be GREAT if we had the assays, sales receipts, shipping receipts, and every other piece of documentation you can think of, that would "prove" the LDM existed. We do not, and you should not expect to see any of that kind of documentation. That some of it did exist, and may still today is doubtless, yet any of these documents that exist will almost certainly never be revealed to the public. So you are certainly free and welcome to demand, insist, etc for more "solid" evidence all you like, but you are not going to get it. What evidence there is, is quite THIN. I think I have pointed this out before, no?
As to Dick Holmes, now who or whom is going to say exactly how much time he spent looking, versus trying to keep the bills paid and family fed and clothed. That is the story of most treasure hunters. It is a fact that he continued to search for his entire life. I do not believe that he got an accurate set of directions from Waltz on his deathbed. He certainly did not follow those directions as we learn from the Holmes manuscript. Yet Holmes, Julia, Reiney, and then Brownie, Clay Wurst, Reiney's brother and father all went in search of the mine. Actions speak louder than words, I would say that their actions, indicates that all of these people certainly believed that Waltz had a rich gold mine somewhere in the Superstitions.
As to whether Waltz had such a mine, you are certainly free and welcome to disbelieve it. There was gold ore in the candle box (and thank you for correctly pointing out that it was a candle box and not a cigar box, and would hold more than a cigar box) as attested by both Holmes and Julia. This ore had to come from a mine. And conversely, we have a number of witnesses that stated Waltz was seen off prospecting in the Superstitions for years, prior to his death, and occasionally selling off small amounts of gold. Every indicator then points to Waltz actually having a secret gold mine somewhere either in or near the Superstition mountains. Why we should then start assuming that he did not, or that it was stolen from some other mine, and other alternative theories simply does not make any sense when we have eyewitnesses from his own time period stating that he certainly did have a gold mine. As one interviewee put it, "it was no big secret" in Florence, in the 1870s. Only in Phoenix, where a rather different set of people lived (read the newspapers of the day - loads of crime) did Waltz keep quiet about his mining activities.
Otherwise we are left with multiple issues, like where did that gold ore found in the candle box come from, if not from Waltz's mine? Where did the gold ore come from that Waltz sold to help Julia save her business? Where did the gold ore seen being sold in Tucson by Waltz for $800 come from? Stealing it from the Vulture perhaps? Waltz never worked for the Vulture mine so that would have been difficult. If Waltz was simply making up a story, then again where did that gold ore come from? A mine, correct?
It may be more comforting to think of the LDM as pure fiction, so one does not have to give it a further thought. If that is your position more power to you. Or perhaps if you prefer to think it was found and all cleaned out, that is also great for you - heck quite a few different people have claimed to have found it and cleaned it out, surely there can't be any gold left by now, from Milton Rose to our latest claimants whom do not come forward in person. Sorry if I don't buy these claims, and want to see verification via the ore itself. The fact that no public ore comparison is forthcoming, is telling in itself. If you had found the Lost Dutchman mine, why would you not want to confirm it in a public and scientific way? Especially after the time limits of the Statute has expired, so no risk of prosecution entails.
So good luck and good hunting to you all, no sale on the Pit mine being the LDM for me, sorry if that upsets anyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
i'm sure julia never told everything waltz told her...and i know for sure herman only told a couple close friends what he knew..so most of the info out there is not as good as you think....herman had a spewl he told people that visited him..but the truth he pretty much kept to himselfReally is right. How many people do you suppose would sell gold in Phoenix, if they knew it would be broadcast to the world as you just described? Isn't that rather counterproductive? And to your point, yes indeed, people WERE anxious to have a piece of that ore, when it became known that it had been Jacob Waltz's. Hence the matchbox and jewelry which are still very hot items today. However the owners do not go about broadcasting it, and we might surmise that it is not being published for one possible reason to avoid thieves.
SDCFIA also wrote
One man claimed he had seen the mine, and been to it, Phipps. Unfortunately he is now deceased so we can't ask him questions about it, but he was afraid to go to the mine while Waltz was alive, because he had nearly been caught at it.
Then we also have Weiser, or do you also discount that, and Dr John Walker as well?
Your wish to see documents is understandable and also quite unrealistic. No one has made such documents public in over 100 years. Why would you expect to see any now? Even with NOT lost mines, the mine owners do not go around making the production records, assay test results, drill cores etc public, unless they are looking for investors or looking to sell the mine. You should know that better than most. Really it appears that your demands are being made, knowing it to be impossible, simply to bolster your argument to doubt the LDM.
As Dave just posted - we know there was a man named Jacob Waltz. He was a known prospector and had found and sold other mines before coming to Phoenix. He sold off gold to help out Julia, and had some left after his death. While he was alive, and working out of Florence, it was not considered a great secret that he had a rich gold mine, but in Phoenix he was more secretive about it. More than one person attempted to trail him to his mine. Several witnesses saw Waltz sell gold ore in Tucson. Now you are certainly welcome to try to theorize some alternate explanation to all this, but the obvious conclusion is that Waltz had in fact found a gold mine, took out enough to make him feel safe financially for the remainder of his days, and left it at that. Before his death he did try to tell his friends how to find the mine, and the one remaining cache of ore which is near it, and unfortunately they did not listen (read Bicknell after his interview with Julia) or were confusing other lost mine tales which were currently in circulation in the Phoenix area when Waltz died as being one and the same.
As you yourself have posted more than once, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.....! These alternate theories are just that - attempts to try to explain the LDM away or dismiss it as some small pocket that has long since been all cleaned out. Yet no one seems to be willing to back up such claims of having found it. Now if you could show us evidence that Waltz was really no prospector, had no experience in finding gold, never sold any, (witnesses notwithstanding) that he was a known baldfaced liar, that he had worked at the Vulture or Bulldog or another similar mine and perhaps got fired for stealing ore, then we would be justified in looking at alternative theories to explain the LDM legend. Otherwise we have all the 'legs' that certainly fit with the "theory" that Waltz had a secret gold mine somewhere, and remember he did point to the Superstitions and told his friends that is where his mine is located.
As to the expected argument that if he had a mine, why then did he not file a claim? Look at the record, Dick Holmes, Poston and others attempted to trail him to the mine, with the obvious goal of either murdering him for it or claimjumping. To file the claim would make the location public knowledge and the task of these drygulchers far easier. Waltz had been in the mining game long enough to know that some people are not to be trusted, even though in many mining camps the 'brotherhood' thing is well known for the honesty and helping each other, even to defend each others mines. Phoenix was NO mining camp - heck one of the main 'founding fathers' - Jack Swilling, was widely suspected of murders!
Apologies for yet another long winded post, to sum it up here is my point - if we are to theorize about Waltz NOT having a secret gold mine, please provide some grounds and evidence to back that up. Like what explanation do you have, for the men who saw Waltz sell a mule load of gold ore in Tucson? Was that all lies? Do you see my point?
I have to agree with Dave too, that if only Julia had paid more attention, and NOT given up so quickly after such a short time, she probably had the best chance of actually finding the mine. Bicknell wrote that Julia seemed "confused" about which canyon to look for, as one example. Perhaps she was only feigning the confusion and did not wish to give away the actual information to some newspaper man. We will never know.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
no doubt all the lost mine stories of the supers have been run together and that is where most of the newbies get led astray....any of the more experienced dutch hunters figured that out and dont pay attention to most of these clues floating around nowadays..the holmes clan (dick and brownie) spent their lives looking for a rock shaped like a man..but they had no idea where that rock was and thats why they bounced all over the mountain and had no real search area...there is probably only one man around that knows what brownie and dick knew...and it will probably go to his grave with him...and there is one man that i know of that knows what herman knew...and he isn't sharing...the main reason why waltz's source of gold hasn't been found (although some think it has) is because of all those bogus clues people have been reading about in books for a hundred years ..and it has gotten a million times worse because of the internet...That is what I have been saying right along Dave. I am convinced that the LDM legend as it is popular today, is a MIX of several different, unrelated lost mines. The Ludy/Peralta story got confused with Waltz/Weiser, many statements made by Joe Deering are today thought to be Waltz like the "trick in the trail" as an example, even Apache Jack's ledge and Wagoner's rose quartz gold get mixed up with Waltz. IMHO most, underline that MOST of the information available on the LDM is not just wrong it does not even really belong to be associated with it. I have NO doubt that Julia, Reiney, Hermann, Holmes, heck even Sims Ely and Jim Bark did not tell everything they had in the way of information. This is in the nature of treasure hunters, and would be most unwise to share every piece of information.
SDCFIA your reply is studded with "maybe", "if" and "but". Maybe Waltz did not have a mine, maybe this, maybe that, maybe he never had any gold at all and the whole thing is a conspiracy to get more tourist dollars. Yet you ignore that with most legends at the root is a truth. These stories of lost mines did not grow out of the air. There was a reason why the people that knew Waltz closest, in his last days, all went looking for his mine. And I must disagree with your ideas about what documents are available, it is a RARITY when we have ANY documents on a lost mine. NOT common at all. Or can you provide some documentation for the Breyfogle, the lost Adams, Pegleg, the Shoemaker, Black Maverick, Six Shooter, (we know there was an assay done on that one after all) and we could list hundreds more. People are secretive about any kind of details like this when it comes to a lost mine, especially when it is a well known one. If you wish to limit your searching to ONLY a well-documented lost mine, great, good for you, and of course then you will have dang few to look for. On the other hand, I still have not seen any grounds to start theorizing that the LDM legend is not based on a fact.
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
PS to illustrate, we have some examples in other lost mine legends. Death Valley Scotty was widely known for his tall tales, and when he 'struck it rich' many were filled with doubt. Another example would be Pegleg Smith, also known for heavy drinking and telling tall tales, cast a shadow of doubt on his story of the black crusted gold nuggets he once found and never could relocate. With Jacob Waltz we do not have the same kind of questionable character. He did not seek out publicity, did not make it known about his gold mine while he lived in Phoenix, at least in Phoenix, and when he did tell someone it was only his closest friends. Rather different than Death Valley Scotty or Pegleg Smith, would you not agree?
