Indian massacre of miners working in 1823

[Old Silver]

Don't confuse gold mining/refining with silver mining/refining.....two entirely different beast. It is the silver that would have presented the most problem and it is also the silver that makes up the largest portion of the weight offered in the pamphlet. This same problem with silver was still being experienced well into the 1850's and even later.

And when this is proved, then it will be the Jewels, right? Always something to doubt.
Look, I'm not saying this was where Beale and crew mined gold, I'm just saying it's not impossible, as has been stated. I have proof of it's possibility.

 

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[bigscoop]

You're still talking about processing. I'm talking about mines so rich that chunks broken off from the rocks were believed to be pure gold. I have statements to show this. And Beale never even said his gold was pure. This was not processed gold. The ORE was essayed at $100,000 per ton, and I think I have some essays even higher than that. One paper says they were taking out one MILLION dollars worth per week. Now when you compare that to the amount (ponds) that 30+ men took out in the time they were there, it's believable.

"SILVER!" This is at issue, NOT GOLD! Very-very different animals, indeed. Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, there were a number of mines that shut down operations not because they couldn't access the silver, but because they couldn't refine it with any efficiency, the cost of getting it actually being higher then the gross amount of refined silver attained. This is all written about and documented in great length, some of these mines still having this same problem well into the 1860's. "FORGET THE GOLD" and research all of this early silver mining and it's problems. The bulk of the alleged Beale amounts/weights were SILVER, not gold.

 

[bigscoop]

And when this is proved, then it will be the Jewels, right? Always something to doubt.
Look, I'm not saying this was where Beale and crew mined gold, I'm just saying it's not impossible, as has been stated. I have proof of it's possibility.

Just do your research on the mining of silver from the region in question and then you'll understand the real issues. It's not even a matter of doubt, it is FACT!

 

[Old Silver]

"SILVER!" This is at issue, NOT GOLD! Very-very different animals, indeed. Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, there were a number of mines that shut down operations not because they couldn't access the silver, but because they couldn't refine it with any efficiency, the cost of getting it actually being higher then the gross amount of refined silver attained. This is all written about and documented in great length, some of these mines still having this same problem well into the 1860's. "FORGET THE GOLD" and research all of this early silver mining and it's problems. The bulk of the alleged Beale amounts/weights were SILVER, not gold.

Before now it wasn't just about silver. What changed?
A pile of gold ore is a pile of gold. A pile of silver ore is a pile of silver.
Why are we hung up on the dollar amount of the treasure? Beale never gave a dollar amount, he only gave weight. So what if the treasure (if true) is worth far less than originally thought. Actually, that would bode well for the story, because if each of the 31 men ended up with almost $50,000 each (1.5 million total), in 1820 value, then why would they risk their lives to go back for more? On the other hand, if each man received only 12-15,000, while that would still be a lot of money for that time, it would be more of a reason to go back.

 

[Old Silver]

Just do your research on the mining of silver from the region in question and then you'll understand the real issues. It's not even a matter of doubt, it is FACT!

I did research, I found proof against what you were originally saying about the impossibility of the mines. Now, suddenly it's all about silver only. And again, I'm only saying the POSSIBILITY is proven.

 

[bigscoop]

I did research, I found proof against what you were originally saying about the impossibility of the mines. Now, suddenly it's all about silver only. And again, I'm only saying the POSSIBILITY is proven.

No, it isn't. "SILVER" has always been the issue...."NOT GOLD!" A huge-huge difference here. The alleged letters say that the gold and silver came from the same mining operation, do they not? So, yes, what that alleged letter details was quite impossible given the amount of time detailed in the region detailed due to the complications in refining THE SILVER, not the gold. There is a mountain of historical documented information on this very subject and problem. And you can not compare later accounts to the actual period of 1817-1822.

 

[Old Silver]

No, it isn't. "SILVER" has always been the issue...."NOT GOLD!" A huge-huge difference here. The alleged letters say that the gold and silver came from the same mining operation, do they not? So, yes, what that alleged letter details was quite impossible given the amount of time detailed in the region detailed due to the complications in refining THE SILVER, not the gold. There is a mountain of historical documented information on this very subject and problem. And you can not compare later accounts to the actual period of 1817-1822.

Highland recorder., February 02, 1894

 

[Old Silver]

And you can not compare later accounts to the actual period of 1817-1822.

Sure you can, because gold prices of this later date were almost identical to that of 1820. And it's the amount of material taken out, IN ONE DAY, that's significant, not the dollar amount.

 

[bigscoop]

Sure you can, because gold prices of this later date were almost identical to that of 1820. And it's the amount of material taken out, IN ONE DAY, that's significant, not the dollar amount.

No, you're confusing the issues. In these later accounts, "the mining and refining processes have been improved upon!" For these reasons you cannot compare what was mined and refined many years later with what was allegedly mined many years prior. Two entirely different periods in mining history. Forget price, it tells you nothing in terms of what may or may not have actually been mined in these prior years. "Process" is what's important and what is most important are those processes in which SILVER could be mined and refined during the effected period. Forget price, forget gold, focus on the documented history of SILVER mining during the effected period, or as close to them as you can get, within the regions described. This will tell you the real circumstances.

 

[Old Silver]

Under this arrangement the work progressed favorably for eighteen months or more, and a great deal of gold had accumulated in my hands, as well as silver, which had likewise been found. Everything necessary for our purposes and for the prosecution of the work had been obtained from Santa Fé, and no trouble was experienced in procuring assistance from the Indians in our labors.

Eighteen months or more to take out just over 1000 ponds of gold ore and almost 4000 pounds of silver ore.

...no trouble was experienced in procuring assistance from the Indians in our labors. You not only had Beale and his men, but also "the Indians." This could have been any number of Indians, so the removal of about 5000 ponds of ore in a year and a half or more is not at all unbelievable, especially considering the amounts that were later taken out IN A SINGLE DAY.

 

[Old Silver]

No, you're confusing the issues. In these later accounts, "the mining and refining processes have been improved upon!" For these reasons you cannot compare what was mined and refined many years later with what was allegedly mined many years prior. Two entirely different periods in mining history. Forget price, it tells you nothing in terms of what may or may not have actually been mined in these prior years. "Process" is what's important and what is most important are those processes in which SILVER could be mined and refined during the effected period. Forget price, forget gold, focus on the documented history of SILVER mining during the effected period, or as close to them as you can get, within the regions described. This will tell you the real circumstances.

You're still looking through the glass of refined gold and silver. The price of PURE gold was nearly the same in the 1890s as it was in 1820. How much different could there have been in ore prices? But this doesn't even matter, because it'[s not the dollar amount that so important, except to show the AMOUNT taken out in a certain time period. Look at what was mined in one single day, and yes, SILVER. Stop thinking in dollar amount and look at AMOUNT OF MATERIAL taken out.

 

[bigscoop]

You're still looking through the glass of refined gold and silver. The price of PURE gold was nearly the same in the 1890s as it was in 1820. How much different could there have been in ore prices? But this doesn't even matter, because it'[s not the dollar amount that so important, except to show the AMOUNT taken out in a certain time period. Look at what was mined in one single day, and yes, SILVER. Stop thinking in dollar amount and look at AMOUNT OF MATERIAL taken out.

And there you go...."the amount taken out." Stop and think about what you just said as it relates to "processes" which then effects your price theory. If there wasn't a process to refine the SILVER beyond "dore bars" during the effected period then nothing else matters as this earlier mining would have required substantially "more labor and time" then those later periods you are quoting from to achieve the same amount of, "SILVER DORE" or "ORE." But of ABSOLUTE conclusion is that the SILVER could not have been even close to pure if it had been mined from the region in question during the period described. "PERIOD!" "This is all historical FACT."

So unless you are willing to accept that the gold and silver detailed in the Beale papers is of very low grade then there is no possible way in which it could have been mined from the region in question during the time period described.

 

[Old Silver]

And there you go...."the amount taken out." Stop and think about what you just said as it relates to "processes" which then effects your price theory. If there wasn't a process to refine the SILVER beyond "dore bars" during the effected period then nothing else matters as this earlier mining would have required substantially "more labor and time" then those later periods you are quoting from to achieve the same amount of, "SILVER DORE" or "ORE." But of ABSOLUTE conclusion is that the SILVER could not have been even close to pure if it had been mined from the region in question during the period described. "PERIOD!" "This is all historical FACT."

You are confusing the issue. Look at the amount of material taken out in one single day. Nothing but that.
Now look at the same for the Beale story. The amounts, considering the time it took, for Beale would have been a minute fraction compares to the later amounts taken out and in that time frame. You seem to be hung up on the refining process, when we're talking about ore.

 

[Old Silver]

So unless you are willing to accept that the gold and silver detailed in the Beale papers is of very low grade then there is no possible way in which it could have been mined from the region in question during the time period described.

We have no way of knowing how pure the ore was. We do have accounts of latter essays on the gold ore, and it was so rich that chunks of it were called pure gold. I don't know about the sliver's purity, but I don't think it matters, as Beale only tells us there was a certain amount in weight.

 

[bigscoop]

We have no way of knowing how pure the ore was. We do have accounts of latter essays on the gold ore, and it was so rich that chunks of it were called pure gold. I don't know about the sliver's purity, but I don't think it matters, as Beale only tells us there was a certain amount in weight.

First, let us remember that these are only "alleged letters" and that no such letters have ever been proven to have existed. Also let us not forget that there is more then enough evidence to question the origin of those alleged letters. So all of that mining and adventure stuff should be taken with a grain of salt and not so close to the vest.

 

[Old Silver]

First, let us remember that these are only "alleged letters" and that no such letters have ever been proven to have existed. Also let us not forget that there is more then enough evidence to question the origin of those alleged letters. So all of that mining and adventure stuff should be taken with a grain of salt and not so close to the vest.

All that is a given. I don't always put a disclaimer on statements, but any/all things to do with the Beale story is an "IF TRUE."
But if we're not at least considering the possibilities, then what are we doing here?

I have shown the gold and silver of the Beale story to be POSSIBLE, where it was being called impossible. That doesn't mean any of it happened as told by the story, it just means that the possibility has been shown.

 

[bigscoop]

All that is a given. I don't always put a disclaimer on statements, but any/all things to do with the Beale story is an "IF TRUE."
But if we're not at least considering the possibilities, then what are we doing here?

I have shown the gold and silver of the Beale story to be POSSIBLE, where it was being called impossible. That doesn't mean any of it happened as told by the story, it just means that the possibility has been shown.

Look, believe whatever you want, but the SILVER if pure, or even close to pure, was simply out of the question. Historical documents and records leave absolutely no doubt of this during the effected period and beyond. At best you would be looking at weights in low grade "dore bars", or completely unknown "ores."

 

[Old Silver]

Look, believe whatever you want, but the SILVER if pure, or even close to pure, was simply out of the question. Historical documents and records leave absolutely no doubt of this during the effected period and beyond. At best you would be looking at weights in low grade "dore bars", or completely unknown "ores."

Who said it was pure? Beale didn't say that. Neither did I.

The above newspaper clipping shows what you said about silver to be wrong. They were taking out silver in great abundance, just as they were for gold.

 

[bigscoop]

Who said it was pure? Beale didn't say that. Neither did I.

The above newspaper clipping shows what you said about silver to be wrong. They were taking out silver in great abundance, just as they were for gold.

What clipping? Is that clipping from the period in question and from the region in question? Or is from a different period and a different region?

 

[TN_Guest1523]

What clipping? Is that clipping from the period in question and from the region in question? Or is from a different period and a different region?

You seriously need to read the post you are arguing against, sometimes you look rather moronic . Denver Colorado is what the area was Big Guy !