Indian massacre of miners working in 1823

[ECS]

I don't think a Medium to be a creditable source, but I do hear Darwin used one for his work !

You do have a fixation on Darwin. Is he mentioned in your "solved" Beale ciphers?

 

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[ECS]

Maybe those Native Americans were proving Darwin's survival of the fittest on those intruding miners who were unable to adapt and overcome a new environment.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Scotter please post by our rules, no insulting of other members and post politics only in our politics forum...

 

[releventchair]

The Arikara's were fired up at the time. News travels , some-one beaks a deal, a rule , or breaches etiquette and repercussions could and did happen.
Still ,definitive proof of a party Beale was associated having a falling out or outright attacked remains sketchy.
Ashley's band had quite a battle in 83 on May 30th. They were in the natives opinion cutting into their fur profits.
A theme that was basically nationwide at times.
https://books.google.com/books?id=P...J#v=onepage&q=1823 indians on warpath&f=false

 

[Old Silver]

Matters went on thus until the summer of 1819, when the question of transferring our wealth to some secure place was frequently discussed. It was not considered advisable to retain so large an amount in so wild and dangerous a locality, where its very possession might endanger our lives ; and to conceal it here would avail nothing, as we might at any time be forced to reveal its place of concealment. We were in a dilemma. Some advised one plan, some another. One recommended Santa Fé as the safest place to deposit it, while others objected, and advocated its shipment at once to the States, where it was ultimately bound to go, and where alone it would be safe. The idea seemed to prevail, and it was doubtless correct. that when outside parties ascertained, as they would do, that we kept nothing on hand to tempt their cupidity, our lives would be more secure than at present.

Beale says that greedy outsiders were something the party was trying to avoid, because such people would put their lives in danger, but he says here that outside parties DID find out about the gold. Sounds like he though it was a perilous enterprise.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

I must say I have seen a lot of Indian attacks on white people at the time of the Beale Letters .

 

[ECS]

Don't forget that Ward's great uncle, John Pickrell Risqué, was massacred by native Americans at Gold Gulch, Arizona while inspecting gold and silver mines in 1882, three years before the publication of the 1885 Beale Papers.

 

[bigscoop]

Don't forget that even the partially efficient processes to separate the silver and gold from the matrix hadn't even been developed yet. Given this, you're talking about an absolutely HUGE operation even at a high essay in order to attain the amount of gold and silver in such a short amount of time as detailed in the Beale papers.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Don't forget that even the partially efficient processes to separate the silver and gold from the matrix hadn't even been developed yet. Given this, you're talking about an absolutely HUGE operation even at a high essay in order to attain the amount of gold and silver in such a short amount of time as detailed in the Beale papers.

1824

 

[bigscoop]

1824

View attachment 1301138

.....you really need to do more research. I didn't say that there wasn't any processes. First you have to locate the region, then research those individual regions. From one state, or region, to the next was often like night and day. But even applying the process you just posted I don't think you're aware of the amount of material involved even in an extremely high essay if that process was employed. In the region in question the silver presented the problem.

What you are describing in the above post is "a basic process" that in many regions produced, "a very low efficiency."

 

[ECS]

.....you really need to do more research. I didn't say that there wasn't any processes. First you have to locate the region, then research those individual regions. From one state, or region, to the next was often like night and day. But even applying the process you just posted I don't think you're aware of the amount of material involved even in an extremely high essay if that process was employed. In the region in question the silver presented the problem.

What you are describing in the above post is "a basic process" that in many regions produced, "a very low efficiency."

Lets not forget the effects of mercury poison on the workers doing this process, including dementia.

 

[bigscoop]

Lets not forget the effects of mercury poison on the workers doing this process, including dementia.

Hu..? What...?

 

[Old Silver]

Don't forget that even the partially efficient processes to separate the silver and gold from the matrix hadn't even been developed yet. Given this, you're talking about an absolutely HUGE operation even at a high essay in order to attain the amount of gold and silver in such a short amount of time as detailed in the Beale papers.

You have to remember, Beale never said anything about the worth of the gold and silver. He put a dollar amount on Jewels for which they had traded, but for the rest he only tells us how much it weighed. It would have been no problem for Beale and his men to mine 4 tons or so of gold and silver ORE in the time given.

As for dollar amount, I can show (old newspapers) where an essay of gold from that area was pronounced to be worth $100,000 per ton. And another paper says they took out $1,000,000 worth in one week. There are several of these newspaper articles, and they all agree that this area was unbelievably rich.

 

[bigscoop]

You have to remember, Beale never said anything about the worth of the gold and silver. He put a dollar amount on Jewels for which they had traded, but for the rest he only tells us how much it weighed. It would have been no problem for Beale and his men to mine 4 tons or so of gold and silver ORE in the time given.

As for dollar amount, I can show (old newspapers) where an essay of gold from that area was pronounced to be worth $100,000 per ton. And another paper says they took out $1,000,000 worth in one week. There are several of these newspaper articles, and they all agree that this area was unbelievably rich.

First, I seriously doubt that you are going to find any "dollar amounts" from the region in question during the period in question - 1817-1822.
Second, yes, it could have been "ore" but if so then it could just as easily be of very low value and not even worth the chase? But one would think that an educated man would have recognized this HUGE difference between "ore" and "gold" & "silver" in his statements. So here again it would all come down to an essay which is completely absent.

 

[bigscoop]

A doré bar is a semi-pure alloy of gold and silver, usually created at the site of a mine. It is then transported to a refinery for further purification. The proportions of silver and gold can vary widely. Doré bars weigh as much as 25 kg.

These dore bars could be as low as 60-70 waste materials back in the day using the basic processes.

 

[Old Silver]

First, I seriously doubt that you are going to find any "dollar amounts" from the region in question during the period in question - 1817-1822.
Second, yes, it could have been "ore" but if so then it could just as easily be of very low value and not even worth the chase? But one would think that an educated man would have recognized this HUGE difference between "ore" and "gold" & "silver" in his statements. So here again it would all come down to an essay which is completely absent.

But I have plenty of them from a later date, a time when gold prices was almost identical to what they were in 1820. I have records to show that.
But essays from that area, when gold prices were about the same, are NOT absent. It means we have no proof of the impossibility of what the Beale story says. In fact, we have proof of it's possibility.

Question: If you broke off a chunk of what appeared to be pure gold from the rocks, would it actually be pure, or would it have to go through a refining process before it could be called pure?

 

[Old Silver]

A doré bar is a semi-pure alloy of gold and silver, usually created at the site of a mine. It is then transported to a refinery for further purification. The proportions of silver and gold can vary widely. Doré bars weigh as much as 25 kg.

These dore bars could be as low as 60-70 waste materials back in the day using the basic processes.

I think you're referring to a more conventional mining operation. I doubt Beale and his men would have taken the time to do that. According to actual stories in the later part of that century, in that area, people held chunks of what they called pure gold from the rocks. I'm not saying it was actually pure, just that it was so rich that some thought it was pure gold. I can't doubt the possibility that such was what Beale and crew mined, in the same area.

 

[bigscoop]

But I have plenty of them from a later date,

Question: If you broke off a chunk of what appeared to be pure gold from the rocks, would it actually be pure, or would it have to go through a refining process before it could be called pure?

Sure, from later dates when better and more efficient processes had been developed. This is the nudge in all of this mining notion, it's not that it couldn't have been mined, but it is that it couldn't have been refined without at least a 40-50% loss, and very possibly even higher. I just posted information regarding "dore bars" as these were very common back in the day and with good reason, they were also very common from the region in question for all of the same reasons, "highly mineralized ground."

as to your question, the only way that could be answered is with an essay.

 

[bigscoop]

I think you're referring to a more conventional mining operation. I doubt Beale and his men would have taken the time to do that. According to actual stories in the later part of that century, in that area, people held chunks of what they called pure gold from the rocks. I'm not saying it was actually pure, just that it was so rich that some thought it was pure gold. I can't doubt the possibility that such was what Beale and crew mined, in the same area.

Don't confuse gold mining/refining with silver mining/refining.....two entirely different beast. It is the silver that would have presented the most problem and it is also the silver that makes up the largest portion of the weight offered in the pamphlet. This same problem with silver was still being experienced well into the 1850's and even later.

 

[Old Silver]

Sure, from later dates when better and more efficient processes had been developed. This is the nudge in all of this mining notion, it's not that it couldn't have been mined, but it is that it couldn't have been refined without at least a 40-50% loss, and very possibly even higher. I just posted information regarding "dore bars" as these were very common back in the day and with good reason, they were also very common from the region in question for all of the same reasons, "highly mineralized ground."

as to your question, the only way that could be answered is with an essay.

You're still talking about processing. I'm talking about mines so rich that chunks broken off from the rocks were believed to be pure gold. I have statements to show this. And Beale never even said his gold was pure. This was not processed gold. The ORE was essayed at $100,000 per ton, and I think I have some essays even higher than that. One paper says they were taking out one MILLION dollars worth per week. Now when you compare that to the amount (pounds) that 30+ men took out in the time they were there, it's believable.