Indian massacre of miners working in 1823

[TN_Guest1523]

Highland recorder., February 02, 1894
View attachment 1301250

This clipping BS !

 

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[Old Silver]

What clipping? Is that clipping from the period in question and from the region in question? Or is from a different period and a different region?

It doesn't matter if it was Fred Flintstone or George Jetson, the AMOUNT OF MATERIAL is what's important here, and the fact that it was taken out in one single day. Beale and crew spent a total of about 3 years mining with at least 30 some men, and maybe significantly more. You were saying that miners weren't able to take out such quantities of silver and even have trouble with it to this day. Well, you forgot to tell the people at the mines that they couldn't do that.

Yes, it was the same region.

 

[bigscoop]

It doesn't matter if it was Fred Flintstone or George Jetson, the AMOUNT OF MATERIAL is what's important here, and the fact that it was taken out in one single day. Beale and crew spent a total of about 3 years mining with at least 30 some men, and maybe significantly more. You were saying that miners weren't able to take out such quantities of silver and even have trouble with it to this day. Well, you forgot to tell the people at the mines that they couldn't do that.

Yes, it was the same region.

No, today it can be easily handled.
"WHAT YEAR ARE YOU QUOTING FROM?"
"HOW LARGE OF AN OPERATION ARE YOU COMPARING AGAINST?"
This is what's escaping you, the huge advances that took place from the described period and the period you are trying to compare to. Not all that many years ago you couldn't get on the internet because, well, there wasn't one. Many years ago dial up was the big thing, but extremely slow, and now? You just can't compare apples and oranges like that and call it the same because it clearly isn't/wasn't.

Look, go into the mining forums here at Tnet and ask those same questions regarding the old time processes back in the day and their inefficiencies in the regions in question. Many of those guys have studied it their entire lives and they will tell you the same thing as I have, just as they told me. They even turned me onto to some top notch research materials on the very subject.

 

[Old Silver]

No, today it can be easily handled.
"WHAT YEAR ARE YOU QUOTING FROM?"
"HOW LARGE OF AN OPERATION ARE YOU COMPARING AGAINST?"
This is what's escaping you, the huge advances that took place from the described period and the period you are trying to compare to. Not all that many years ago you couldn't get on the internet because, well, there wasn't one. Many years ago dial up was the big thing, but extremely slow, and now? You just can't compare apples and oranges like that and call it the same because it clearly isn't/wasn't.

Look, go into the mining forums here at Tnet and ask those same questions regarding the old time processes back in the day and their inefficiencies in the regions in question. Many of those guys have studied it their entire lives and they will tell you the same thing as I have, just as they told me. They even turned me onto to some top notch research materials on the very subject.

The only thing escaping me is how you can argue over such a plain and simple thing. Yes there were advances from 1820 to 1890's, but notice how long it took them to take out a HUGE amount of silver. ONE DAY. I have another clip saying they took out a large amount in ONE HOUR. Now are you telling me that 30-40 men (maybe more) couldn't at least match that amount in a 3 YEAR period? That's 1,100 days. So you think they were able in the 1890's to take out more than a thousand times what they did in 1820? I don't think so.

P.S. The internet connections were just as good in 1820 as they were in the 1890's.

If those experts say different than what I have found recorded, who am I going to believe?

 

[bigscoop]

The only thing escaping me is how you can argue over such a plain and simple thing. Yes there were advances from 1820 to 1890's, but notice how long it took them to take out a HUGE amount of silver. ONE DAY. I have another clip saying they took out a large amount in ONE HOUR. Now are you telling me that 30-40 men (maybe more) couldn't at least match that amount in a 3 YEAR period? That's 1,100 days. So you think they were able in the 1890's to take out more than a thousand times what they did in 1820? I don't think so.

P.S. The internet connections were just as good in 1820 as they were in the 1890's.

If those experts say different than what I have found recorded, who am I going to believe?

Again, ....."research the processes of silver mining and refining in the region in question from 1820 to 1891", a period of 70 years of advancements.
Also, compare the sizes of these "greatly advanced operations" to what your 30 men had to work with. Heck, just do the research from the 1850's to 1891 and it's like night and day.
But you believe whatever you wish....me....I'll stick to the recorded and documented mining histories for the regions in question.

And no, that's not 1'100 days, not even close. Half of the party came back east for an extended period of time plus travel time to and from, and the other half allegedly stayed and froze their butts off in neck deep snows.

 

[Old Silver]

Again, ....."research the processes of silver mining and refining in the region in question from 1820 to 1891", a period of 70 years of advancements.
Also, compare the sizes of these "greatly advanced operations" to what your 30 men had to work with. Heck, just do the research from the 1850's to 1891 and it's like night and day.
But you believe whatever you wish....me....I'll stick to the recorded and documented mining histories for the regions in question.

And no, that's not 1'100 days, not even close. Half of the party came back east for an extended period of time plus travel time to and from, and the other half allegedly stayed and froze their butts off in neck deep snows.

I have researched it. And if you stick to the recorded and documented mining histories for the regions in question, you'll take what I've said as true, because it comes from factual documents.

Actually, all but ten returned to the work when Beale went on to Virginia. Not half.
No matter how you slice it, that many men working for only one year could have amassed a great hoard of ore, though they worked a lot longer than just a year. And as far as that, we don't know how many Indians helped. It could have been a hundred for all we know. But I say even 30 men could have amassed that much ore in 2-3 years time. I think the more you think about that, the more you should realize the sense in it.

 

[Old Silver]

Also, compare the sizes of these "greatly advanced operations" to what your 30 men had to work with. Heck, just do the research from the 1850's to 1891 and it's like night and day.

And what I've been trying to get across is, compare the mere 4+ tons mined by Beale's men with the amount that was mined in 2+ years in the 1890's. Yes, it's night and day, and that goes to my point. The amount Beale gathered was minuscule in comparison to the amount of 1890's for the same amount of time. Minuscule.

 

[bigscoop]

The Robert E. Lee mine was a HUGE operation with modern technology and advances of the day. It employed a boat load of experienced miners, engineers, etc., to go along with all of these advancements and process improvements. It's like comparing GM to a guy who is designing and building a car from scratch in his garage. GM builds them in a day, the guy in the garage takes years just to make one.

 

[bigscoop]

What you're suggesting is that the Beale party maintained advances some 50 years ahead of their time and that they were able to employ hundreds of experienced, friendly, labor hungry Indians to risk life and limb in a cold dark hole under the earth so that their good friends, the white man, could reap the rewards of their land. This is what you're suggesting when you compare the operations of a huge 1880-90 mining operation like the Robert E. Lee to a tiny 1817-1822 mining operation such as the alleged Beale party.



The Robert E. Lee mine was in operation for “several years” prior to 1891, tons and tons and tons of earth having already been removed several times over. It was not a simple or single hole in the earth, far from it.

 

[Old Silver]

The Robert E. Lee mine was a HUGE operation with modern technology and advances of the day. It employed a boat load of experienced miners, engineers, etc., to go along with all of these advancements and process improvements. It's like comparing GM to a guy who is designing and building a car from scratch in his garage. GM builds them in a day, the guy in the garage takes years just to make one.

That's a near perfect example. YEARS. That's how long the large Beale party had (about 3 years, minus winter slowdown). SMALL AMOUNT. That's how much this large party mined, relative to the amounts mined in later years. Again, compare 3 years to one day. When you do this comparison, you'll see that your example above is a good one.

 

[Old Silver]

What you're suggesting is that the Beale party maintained advances some 50 years ahead of their time and that they were able to employ hundreds of experienced, friendly, labor hungry Indians to risk life and limb in a cold dark hole under the earth so that their good friends, the white man, could reap the rewards of their land. This is what you're suggesting when you compare the operations of a huge 1880-90 mining operation like the Robert E. Lee to a tiny 1817-1822 mining operation such as the alleged Beale party.



The Robert E. Lee mine was in operation for “several years” prior to 1891, tons and tons and tons of earth having already been removed several times over. It was not a simple or single hole in the earth, far from it.

I'm not suggesting anything. I have shown that what has been suggested by the Beale papers is possible. Not saying it happened, but it's possible. All the other things you are talking about might be another story, but as far as the ability to mine the amounts given by Beale, in the time frame given, was possible at that time and place.

I didn't say anything about a simple hole in the ground. The Beale story claims to have found gold in the rocks.

I have another article that will further make my point. I might post it later.

 

[bigscoop]

Look, believe whatever you wish and I'll just make this recommendation one more time. In order to understand why what you're proposing was impossible during the period described and in the region described you MUST first fully understand the factual limitations with mining and refining SILVER during the period and in those locations. We're talking various sciences here and physical limitations, sciences and physical limitations that were drastically improved upon after the 1860's and beyond.

At best you are talking 6 months of full crew mining a year with no means to separate/refine the gold and SILVER mined from the complex matrix of those regions without suffering substantial loss. A horse drawn crushing process that had to be built, pick axes and cast iron pots, a mercury process that was extremely dangerous and used in high volume with an extremely high rate of loss, etc., etc. At best these men might have ended up with very low grade dore bars but certainly not 8800 pounds of pure silver and a few thousand pounds of pure gold. The strike they claim they had discovered was in a ledge, it wasn't in nugget form, this means that they had to hard rock mine and follow the vein/veins.

You can find all of the later information you like but it is simply comparing GM to a garage car mechanic who has enlisted the help of a few friends who lack the tools and process. But I guess on these issues we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Old Silver]

Look, believe whatever you wish and I'll just make this recommendation one more time. In order to understand why what you're proposing was impossible during the period described and in the region described you MUST first fully understand the factual limitations with mining and refining SILVER during the period and in those locations. We're talking various sciences here and physical limitations, sciences and physical limitations that were drastically improved upon after the 1860's and beyond.

At best you are talking 6 months of full crew mining a year with no means to separate/refine the gold and SILVER mined from the complex matrix of those regions without suffering substantial loss. A horse drawn crushing process that had to be built, pick axes and cast iron pots, a mercury process that was extremely dangerous and used in high volume with an extremely high rate of loss, etc., etc. At best these men might have ended up with very low grade dore bars but certainly not 8800 pounds of pure silver and a few thousand pounds of pure gold. The strike they claim they had discovered was in a ledge, it wasn't in nugget form, this means that they had to hard rock mine and follow the vein/veins.

You can find all of the later information you like but it is simply comparing GM to a garage car mechanic who has enlisted the help of a few friends who lack the tools and process. But I guess on these issues we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Well, since you obviously don't hear what I'm saying, maybe someone else can post what I've been saying - W'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT REFINING, OR PURE GOLD/SILVER. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ORE. Maybe you'll hear it if someone else posts it.

Again, this is indeed akin to a garage car mechanic, compared to a GM factory. Any thinking person who compares the two mining operations will see that, I think. Evidently you don't realize just how rich those mines were at that time.

 

[bigscoop]

Well, since you obviously don't hear what I'm saying, maybe someone else can post what I've been saying - W'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT REFINING, OR PURE GOLD/SILVER. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ORE. Maybe you'll hear it if someone else posts it.

Again, this is indeed akin to a garage car mechanic, compared to a GM factory. Any thinking person who compares the two mining operations will see that, I think. Evidently you don't realize just how rich those mines were at that time.

I fully realize just how rich those mines and those regions were/are. In fact, I spent a great deal of time researching all of it in detail as I was scheduled to be out there last year doing just what we're talking about, among other things. If not for the heart attack this is exactly what I would be doing, and more, in places like Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and California. So I spent a full year researching al of this, in detail, in preparation for those various adventures.

Let me ask you this, just how deep was all that pure gold and silver in your article when it was discovered? On the surface? 100 feet? 300 feet? 500 feet? More? These are the little details you have to investigate before you can draw upon certain conclusions.

 

[Old Silver]

Highland recorder., February 16, 1894. Notice this says this was done by ONE MAN, and in ONE HOUR, and it was taken out IN CHUNKS. Not the great machines you refer to, but ONE MAN...ONE HOUR...IN CHUNKS.

 

[Old Silver]

This article tells of a man who had taken out over $1,000,000 in gold before the Civil War, and he didn't use any modern machinery. And this was in Virginia, which mines were far less rich than those in the west.

 

[Old Silver]

This article tells of a man who had taken out over $1,000,000 in gold before the Civil War, and he didn't use any modern machinery. And this was in Virginia, which mines were far less rich than those in the west.
View attachment 1301855

And I might add, this gold essayed at $30.00 per ton. Compare that to the western mines, essaying at $100,000 per ton.

 

[bigscoop]

Apples and oranges......"Silver VS Gold."
But don't take my word for it, it can all be easily researched through credible sources. Not much else I can say about it that I've not already said so believe whatever you wish to believe.

 

[Old Silver]

Apples and oranges......"Silver VS Gold."
But don't take my word for it, it can all be easily researched through credible sources. Not much else I can say about it that I've not already said so believe whatever you wish to believe.

Why would I take anyone's word for it when I have documented facts right before my eyes?

 

[bigscoop]

Why would I take anyone's word for it when I have documented facts right before my eyes?

Because you don't have documented proof before your eyes because you fail to realize the stark differences being explained to you. Also, how much silver (weight) would it have taken to trade for $13'000 in jewels? And how in the world could such a trade be facilitated with ore or low grade dore bars? (The lower the grade the more bars/ore/weight required.) Hence, the trade could only have been facilitated with pure grade silver which due to "lack of efficient process" wasn't possible from the region in question during the period detailed in the time allotted. In other words, if that trade took place then it had to have taken place with refined SILVER!!!!!!!!!!!