How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[somehiker]

Hi Paul:
The material is just a collection of copies(of copies) of "documents" pertaining,for the most part,to the region of central and southern Arizona,
provided by a grad student who has access to librarys and collections that I do not.It's a good collection,with comments and observations by various people included as an addendum.I have no idea whether or not all of this material has been authenticated,but it must have been considered worthwhile for so many faculty to have reviewed these papers and added their own annotations to them as well,where they are indicated as being "internal copy".I've only just started reading all of this and it's probably going to take a while,but most of the material was sourced from the "languages" departments or divisions of various facilities.

Regards:SH

 

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[Cubfan64]

Hi Paul:
The material is just a collection of copies(of copies) of "documents" pertaining,for the most part,to the region of central and southern Arizona,
provided by a grad student who has access to librarys and collections that I do not.It's a good collection,with comments and observations by various people included as an addendum.I have no idea whether or not all of this material has been authenticated,but it must have been considered worthwhile for so many faculty to have reviewed these papers and added their own annotations to them as well,where they are indicated as being "internal copy".I've only just started reading all of this and it's probably going to take a while,but most of the material was sourced from the "languages" departments or divisions of various facilities.

Regards:SH

Excellent! Great job getting access to what sounds like some very interesting history!

 

[cactusjumper]

SH,

It's always great to read the stories from regular folks. Lucky you!!!

Enjoy,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

For All:
Just a couple of things out there that can now be found on google earth....near some really old routes.
The numbers are 42' top to bottom.
The radial ruin is 68' across.
They are within a short walk of another dispersed set of ruins.
They are on higher ground than the other ruins.
The numbers are probably modern era......
I have not seen or photographed them,but I have visited some of the other ruins.
-----------------any ideas?---------------

Regards:SH

 

[somehiker]

SH,

It's always great to read the stories from regular folks. Lucky you!!!

Enjoy,

Joe

Hi Joe:
Sometimes one can learn more from the "unpublished works" of those who simply reported what they observed and were told,in real time(give or take a day or two),without equating all to their inherited views.
As a side note,it would be interesting if it were possible to file a FOI request to the Treasury dept. requesting inventory reports of seizures and voluntary submissions of "antiquities and funerary artifacts" and relevant sources and locations of origin,which may be listed on the inventories anyway.Robert may be able to advise on the practicality of such a maneuver.Could be an eye opener.
Remember this?


Regards:SH

 

[Cubfan64]

Hi again SH - as usual, it's getting more and more interesting

I've always been a firm believer that unpublished accounts (like journals, diaries, notes, etc...) likely contain the "MEAT" of treasure stories as well as history itself. Sounds like you've come across some very interesting information.

I believe I see what you refer to as the "radial ruins," but I'm not clear on what the first photo is of. From your description it sounds like a mound/tower of some kind, but without being in 3D, it's hard to make anything out on the photo.

Keepin' me on the edge of my seat at least

 

[somehiker]

Hi Paul:
It's about a quarter of a mile to the N/W ,above the place that we were looking for arrow points.
If you happen to be in that old neighbourhood, you can get a good 3D view by hiking up there.
Looks to be situated near the crest with a higher point of rock against the eastern side that is casting a short shadow on the right side.A circle,within a half circle,with radial "lines" connecting the two.Like a smaller version of circlestone.From there you will have a good view of several ways in and out of the area.
Regards:SH

ps.....will send the other info later tnite or tomorrow morning....gotta swap the scanner over to my laptop due to a power source failure on my desktop today.

 

[somehiker]

An interesting bit of info on the culture of Spanish miners(castilian):
From Castilian days by by John Hay 1903

"There is often a bitterness of opposition to evident improvement which is hard to explain. In the last century, when the eminent naturalist Bowles went down to the Almaden silver-mines, by appointment of the government, to see what was the cause of their exhaustion, he found that they had been worked entirely in perpendicular shafts instead of following the direction of the veins. He perfected a plan for working them in this simple and reasonable way, and no earthly power could make the Spanish miners obey his orders. There was no precedent for this new process, and they would not touch it. They preferred starvation rather than offend the memory of their fathers by a change. At last they had to be dismissed and a full force imported from Germany, under whose hands the mines became instantly enormously productive."

Regards:SH

 

[Ellie Baba]

Cactusjumper wrote

He just writes em, he don't explains em

Well I had HOPED he had some kind of historical record that would back up this claim, which he has said a couple of times now. I do not have my refs handy but am pretty sure that our own US Army built the Military Trail during the Apache wars, and never looked into this particular point any further as I have never before heard any other claim to the origins. Mr Fork is the first one I ever heard say that it was first built by the Spanish, so I thought perhaps he would explain why he says this. Since he has not responded, I will classify that statement as unsubstantiated.
Oroblanco


PS This question is for EVERYONE reading our discussion.

Can anyone here show me a DOCUMENTED historical report of ANY Spanish expedition that ventured into and/or through the Superstition Mountains, referring to that portion which we call by that name today <the Wilderness area to be specific> and not the considerably larger area that they called El Sierra Espuma. So a Spanish party passing by Picket Post or Four Peaks would not qualify, as these are not within what we now commonly call the Superstitions. Thank you in advance.

Have any of you seen the Templar Knight located on the north end of the Superstitions. The viewing corridor includes the Village Inn, the intersection of Idaho Rd and the Apache trail or Cortes Road and Broadway. Look towards the north end of the main range close to sunset. You will see a his diamond shield, his head, shoulders and a sword in his left hand pointed towards the ground. He is about 500 feet in total height. This guy is a three dimensional shadow creation that can only be seen from within the viewing corridor as described in the last few posts concerning the Pearalta Stone Maps.

Now for the crescent moon; located on the mountains north and parallel to the Lost Dutchman Road just west of the Bulldog Monument. Take Idaho Road north to the Lost Dutchman and turn right heading east. Proceed to the speed limit sign and park. This crescent moon was created in three different parts. If you drive in either direction east or west you will see the crescent start to come apart. If you look to the north and scan the closest hills/mountains around 1;00 PM till 4:00 PM depending on the location of the sun you will see a large waning crescent moon and it is very large.

Both images ONLY appear at certain times of the year. Watch these areas very closely and you will see them as they come and go. Please read my post found in the Peralta Stone Maps Forum and read the Geological Report found on those pages concerning the 3 hearts and the horse and arrow. Oh yeah, start with page 3 on the bottom of the post.

Does anyone need more proof? Seeing is believing, although some will still deny these facts. I would post some pics but, I spent years solving this part of the puzzle and waited patiently until these shadow monuments appeared. Some of you will see them (those patient enough) some of you will not. To my knowledge there are only 7 people who know of these monuments existence. If you know of these monuments or of others let me know. Yes, there are more of these, many more.

EB

 

[cactusjumper]

EB,

Are you saying that you believe the Knights Templar, or the Jesuits, created a 500' tall shadow marker that shows an accurate depiction of a Templar Knight?

Is there a photo that shows this marker?

I have seen a shadow on the south side of Weaver's Needle that is a close match for the Stone Map priest. Just about everyone has seen the one (1) on the west side of the Needle. There are many strange shadow objects in the Superstitions, just as everywhere else in the world. Sit in one place long enough and you will see something that looks man made.

To date, including the heart I found in Little Boulder, I believe all that I have seen were natural phenomena. There is also a large cross shadow facing south in Little Boulder Canyon. Many of these natural "markers" have been used in creating treasure maps.

In 1999 we were looking for the circle in a circle depicted on the Stone Map Trail. That trail led us to this spot, which I had marked on my topo over 40 years ago:

My assumption is that it was a coincidence.

This looked, kind of, familiar:

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

Hi Joe:
I certainly agree with your observation that most of the markers are signposts created by nature and used by man.
Geometric shapes,such as circles or circles within circles or triangles or squares etc. may have been man made,and it's usually not too difficult to tell,as with the many "teepee rings" found throughout the plains states.In rocky areas of the mountain ranges it's still possible to come across native burial grounds where rock piles mark the location of the corner poles of the burial scaffolds used by several tribes.They may appear as "symbols" on maps to lost treasure in those states as well.Features like that shown in your photo of the "castellated" boulder which,by the way,illustrates your point much more clearly than an out of focus shot of a lumpy outcrop(but lack of focus is what we have come to expect from both "Knights Templar" and "Bigfoot" boosters),could very well appear on a map,be it paper or stone,indicating a waypoint on the trail.
EB:
I will have to go back and read your report .I seemed to have missed the part about the third heart and the horse as well.I too would love to see a photo of the giant knight.Surely you did not spend so much time solving this mystery,that the LDM really is in the Superstitions,only to offer one fuzzy photo as proof that "seeing is believing".

Regards:SH

 

[Ellie Baba]

O ye of little faith! How many years have you guys (and gals) spent in the Superstitions? Are you telling me that no one living in AJ (or the southwest for that matter) has ever seen shadow writing or shadow monuments? Dobie spoke about them and he also described them. Give me some time to get the two photos set up so as I can get them posted here for your enjoyment.

I only have the right to tease the people who live in Apache Junction and other areas where shadow monuments exist. You guys in Europe, yup, you've got them too.

EB

 

[Ellie Baba]

I had to find an image re-sizer in order to get this photo posted. Attached is the Knight. I will attach the Crescent Moon some time tomorrow when I can find the time. This is the best picture that I can presently find. The Knight is located on the far left side of the Superstition Range then go to the right just a little bit. Look for the diamond shield and the rest will come to light. Sometimes if you step back from the photo a few feet you will be able to see the image better. Remember that these Shadow Monuments are meant to be seen from a great distance. When you get closer to them they will actually become distorted, just like looking at a newspaper photograph with a magnifying glass. It may take you a few minutes for your eyes to recognize the image. Usually the wife or kids will pick up the image right away. Any questions let me know. Anyone in AZ or ? that wants a personal tour of what can be found on the Supers let me know.

EB

 

[Ellie Baba]

This didn't turn out the way I wanted it to. The image copied twice and they are located on the far left of the post. What gives? Someone may want to explain what happened here as I do not have a clue. I am learning more about computers than I wanted to. At least I would like to make a professional presentation and get the job done right. Such is life and I really do hope that you all can see this awesome Knight. Seeing him in real time is so cool.

EB

 

[cactusjumper]

EB,

Is this the shadow that you are talking about and do you believe it was created, in some way, by man?

I assume we are talking about the smaller shadow on the left side of the picture.

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

"He is about 500 feet in total height"
Must be a typo, i could buy a 5 foot version! 500' would be on the scale of Egyptian monuments and wouldnt have gone unnoticed (during constuction if you are saying it was man made) by the local care takers.

There are plenty of shadow images in the terrain all over these mountains.

 

[Ellie Baba]

The Knight is standing on the left side of your photograph and he is casting a shadow also. If you were to cut the photo in half throw the right side away.

The monument was enhanced by the architect or art creator. All of the shadow monuments were basically natural in nature. The artist then enhanced the natural to reveal an actual image that was designed for this monument. I will go into this subject in more detail as there are so many of these
shadow monuments on the face of the Superstitions. On the right side of the photo you will find a curved arrow pointing south and there are a number of hash marks above and to the left of the shaft.
An Indian head is looking at the end of the shaft, his head is tilted.

Later,

EB

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

Maybe this?

 

[somehiker]

EB:
Sometimes the camera can't quite capture what can be seen by the naked eye,as processed by our brain cells.It may have helped not to have had a dirty window in front of the lens as well.Now that you have provided the photo in question,it adds some degree of understanding to your observation.I have cropped,enlarged,and sharpened the shot,as well as converted it to b/w,and it appears that indeed you have captured an interesting natural phenomenon.I also would estimate the total height at about 500 ft.
The location is interesting as well,as it relates to at least one pre-classic Tanque Verde or Tucson Phase Hohokam rite,as related to a small party of visiting travellers by the Pima.The Don's wall of fire may not have been the first such spectacle viewed by those gathered below.

Regards:SH

 

[Cubfan64]

Ellie Baba,

I was becoming quite interested in your first few posts - especially when taken in context with those from other people I know. I sincerely applaud the fact that you stand behind your comments with actual photographs as that hasn't always been the case for folks with theories.

With all due respect however, when the "images" go from being rock carvings, stone monuments, caves, tunnels, etc... to immense shadow figures 500' tall and other such similar things, I just don't buy it.

Do I believe that people long ago (no matter who they were) left monuments, markings, etc... - yes of course I do. I believe most were meant for spiritual reasons, to mark paths (to whatever) or for teaching. What I just can't accept is that around every corner in the Superstitions (or any other mountain range) are untold numbers of markings leading to treasures.

I could come up with 3-4 published books off the top of my head regarding just the Superstitions that has page after page of "so called" treasure symbols and huge markings signifying Montezuma's treasure, Geronimo's treasure cave, Jesuit treasure, etc... The vast majority of the photos appear to be nothing more than nature's handiwork.

Call me one of the "naysayers" if you will, but I have a pretty open mind about the Superstitions - probably more open than most even. I just don't buy the fact that so many people took so much of their valuable time while exploring, mining, etc... to carve rocks and leave markers everywhere to be found. Again, not that I don't believe there ARE markers out there - I just don't believe they are behind every rock.

Please don't discontinue your discussion on account of just my opinion - one naysayer shouldn't sway one from sharing their opinions just as I shared mine.