How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[arizonaames]

I am surprised that some think there is a mine and that this was a mystery. Waltz was a night foreman at the Vulture mine in Wickenburg for a time. Gold has it's own properties from whence it is found. Waltz's gold was identical to the gold from the Vulture mine. Can you say h-i-g-h g-r-a-d-i-n-g......

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

I believe you are incorrect. It was not the same as that which came from the Vulture Mine.

Also, everything considered, the Vulture Mine is 12 miles or so southwest of Wickenburg. Hardly a couple of days trip from where old Jacob lived. He hiked in the wrong direction every time, if he was going to the Vulture.

Add to that fact, is that if Waltz was highgrading from the Vulture, since Waltz WAS known - I doubt that the officials from the Vulture Mine would have let him go on and continue doing it without prosecution or retribution.

There are many other reasons for, what I believe is an incorrect statement on your part, but, these 3 facts, in themselves, is enough proof.

B

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA arizonaames,

arizonaames wrote

Waltz was a night foreman at the Vulture mine in Wickenburg for a time.

Greetings Arizonaames, do you have some kind of documentary proof that Jacob Waltz ever worked at the Vulture mine? I was never able to find ANY evidence that he ever worked there. Helen Corbin stated that a complete search of the Vulture's records contradicts the stories of Waltz working there, though he did buy ore from the mine to mill out the gold.

arizonaames also wrote

Gold has it's own properties from whence it is found. Waltz's gold was identical to the gold from the Vulture mine. Can you say h-i-g-h g-r-a-d-i-n-g......

I am partial agreement with you, and must respectfully disagree with you in part. I do agree that all natural gold has specific properties which makes it possible to identify the origin/source of any gold found in nature. Waltz's gold however was NOT identical, (similar yes) to ore from the Vulture, in fact it is UNIQUE and unlike the ore from any KNOWN source. Waltz's ore assayed out at $110,000 to the ton in the late 1800's when gold was priced at $20.67 per ounce, it would be worth well over a million per ton today.

The gold ore from Waltz's mine is of a type known as "hypothermal" that is a type of ore formed at great depth in the rock, where most Arizona gold ores are of epithermal types, formed near the surface and often green to greenish yellow in color, with fine grains and tiny gold particles. Mesothermal ores, can be white quartz but more often colored variously (green, orange, black) has medium sized grains and small to medium sized gold particles. Epithermal gold deposits most often do not run to any depth in the rock, so are quickly played out (though often making the miner wealthy in the process) Mesothermal deposits tend to run deeper but often pinch out at depth, Hypothermal types run to great depths (over a mile is not unusual) but can be rather "small" in cross-section so may not show a large intrusion at the surface. Jacob Waltz's ore ran 55 to 70 percent gold with a small amount of silver - 1.3 percent, while the Vulture ore ran 0.35 oz gold and 0.25 oz silver per ton - nearly two ounces of silver for every three ounces of gold. The Vulture mine is of epigenic (near surface) mesothermal to epithermal type, not the same as Waltz's ore. The huge difference in gold to silver ratios is proof as well as rock grain sizes.

(Good article on Vulture mine is online at: http://www.azgs.state.az.us/Mineral Scans/Geology of Vulture Gold Mine.pdf

This ore of Waltz is really the key point that proves it does exist, and that very few have ever actually found it - as far as I know, only one person in the last forty years had found ore that matched Waltz's exactly, and he died in the Superstitions before showing anyone where he had found it. (Gassler)

It is always easy and tempting to just dismiss legends like the Lost Dutchman mine, for what intelligent person could believe in such things as a fabulously rich gold mine that no one can find in our modern, high-tech society, but these stories are founded on reality and perhaps some day someone will yet find the infamous Lost Dutchman mine. I hope so.

Good luck and good hunting arizonaames, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

A.A.,

Don't have much to add to the last two posts, but there are people out here who have spent many decades researching Jacob Waltz and his mine. Even though I have never searched for the mine, I have spent one hell of a lot of money and time researching the facts.

You are mistaken in your conclusions, but the charge that Waltz "high-graded" ore from the Vulture Mine has persisted for many years. I would suggest that you purchase and read "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz" by Thomas Glover, PhD. Pay special attention to Chapter 21, "Does the Mine Exist? The Gold, the Ore, the Geology and the People".

No one has written a better book on the history and facts behind the LDM.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Twisted Fork]

Wiser and his being wounded may be a strong lead in picking up the trail. Seems I read he died and that Waltz was never the same again, but didn't they get to some sort of medical attention first?

 

[ghostdog]

Hi All,According to Barry Storm,Waltz met Wiser while working at the Vulture mine, they both were fired for high gradeing.They then started searching the Supers together ,when they came upon 2 miners who were working a rich vein.They killed the miners,then Waltz killed Wiser,and this is the Gold Vein Waltz worked until his dying day. Storm also theroizes that Waltz may have killed other searchers who got to close to his gold vein.Waltz told everyone that Wiser was killed by Indians,but few believed that story.

 

[cactusjumper]

GD,

Can you tell me which of Barry Storms books contains that information?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[ghostdog]

Hi Joe, The book title is {Thunder God"s Gold, B.Storm}, my edition has goldish color covers, right now its in a storage locker,I think the publish date is 1945, as the inset mentions something like reduction in paper use due to war regulations. Their are many older b/w photos and maps in the book than the publish date,their is no mention of 1st or second editions etc. I dont recall the publisher"s name,but Storm does put a few poems in the book. Their is a very unusual and detailed bibliography section..Hope this helps you locate a copy.
gd

 

[Twisted Fork]

Lost mine archives, Old Phoenix public library. Legend has it that Waltz avoided the mine site for next to 10 years and finally went back for a cache left behind. The story said that he was mentally disturbed after loosing his only true friend in the world. I don't recall the book but it seems Wiser was buried in a sand bar so as the winter run off would carry him away. Waltz was worried that someone would find the mine and then locate a grave and use it to frame him.

 

[cactusjumper]

GD,

Many thanks. I have a signed first edition of that book. It's #176 of 5,000.

I seldom pick up Storm's books anymore, because they have little to do with what really took place. You have Storm's quote a little mixed up, as he states that only Waltz was fired from the Vulture, and he later met Wieser down on the Mexican border. Page 51. As far as I know, there is no evidence that Waltz ever worked at the Vulture.

Storm's reputation is a bit faded in Arizona, and especially in Dutch Hunting circles. On the other hand, he was a fun read.

Thanks again,

Joe

 

[Twisted Fork]

Another version I remember reading was that Waltz and Wiser were acquainted growing up in Germany, but came over here on different ships.

 

[ghostdog]

Back in those days miners often just signed their name useing a X. Its also possible Waltz used a alias at the Vulture,especially if he went to work their to with the intention of higradeing ore. However I dont believe he higraded ore to latter hide it in the Superstitions mts. Its my thoughts that he probably was working a rich vien,that was and is still only accessible through a rock crevice or small rock tunnel leading to a enclosed area where the vien is located, which is hidden from view.
Its gotta be their somewhere,but at what section in the military trail is the stopping point ?.

 

[Twisted Fork]

His mine is on a slope, it faces December's West sunset wherein it becomes lit. The military trail was first Spanish and goes to at least Apache Junction and on to Santa Fe along the Black river. It has to be near U.S. Forestry Topo Mine symbols where I'm sure numerous white men found decoy tunnels intentionally left behind by the Spanish, so as to cause them to waste their life away digging there instead of looking for the concealed Mother lode nearby. Myself, I would look along the Salt on the common path of the Thunder Heads that frequents the area striking the rocks with lighting. Lots of iron there.

 

[Oroblanco]

Twisted Fork wrote

The military trail was first Spanish

May I ask why you say that the military trail was first built and/or used by the Spanish? Thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

He just writes em, he don't explains em........

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

He just writes em, he don't explains em

Well I had HOPED he had some kind of historical record that would back up this claim, which he has said a couple of times now. I do not have my refs handy but am pretty sure that our own US Army built the Military Trail during the Apache wars, and never looked into this particular point any further as I have never before heard any other claim to the origins. Mr Fork is the first one I ever heard say that it was first built by the Spanish, so I thought perhaps he would explain why he says this. Since he has not responded, I will classify that statement as un-substantiated.
Oroblanco


PS This question is for EVERYONE reading our discussion.

Can anyone here show me a DOCUMENTED historical report of ANY Spanish expedition that ventured into and/or through the Superstition Mountains, referring to that portion which we call by that name today <the Wilderness area to be specific> and not the considerably larger area that they called El Sierra Espuma. So a Spanish party passing by Picket Post or Four Peaks would not qualify, as these are not within what we now commonly call the Superstitions. Thank you in advance.

 

[somehiker]

Hi Oro:

What,exactly,would you consider a "Documented historical report"?
Is anything else,written and illustrated but not published from a time prior to Kino,even Coronado worth posting?
Have you ever heard of the "Cocomaricopas" or "Stuc Cabitic" or a large ruin called "Castillo Blanca",12 legua N buy way of a four vara wide trail,of an illustrated four story ruin,or even "Arte de la lengua castellana".
I had not,before last evening.

Regards:SH

 

[ghostdog]

Hi all, just adding a little imfo that I have, the Cocomaricopas and the Opas lived close to each other on the Rio Azul near the Gila. The Casa Grande was shown to Kino and he decribes it a 4 story building and as large as a castle. These tribes told Kino the ancesters of Montazuma deseretd the ruins and left for other Casa Grandes of Chihuahua, and from there they traveled to Mexico,where they set up their great court. Kino states he has seen several other large Casa Grandes in his travels. A Fray Marcos de Niza is a good source for more documented imfo,from my notes.

 

[Springfield]

.... PS This question is for EVERYONE reading our discussion.

Can anyone here show me a DOCUMENTED historical report of ANY Spanish expedition that ventured into and/or through the Superstition Mountains, referring to that portion which we call by that name today <the Wilderness area to be specific> and not the considerably larger area that they called El Sierra Espuma. So a Spanish party passing by Picket Post or Four Peaks would not qualify, as these are not within what we now commonly call the Superstitions. Thank you in advance.

In other words, an expedition that occurred prior to 1821. Any activities after Mexican Independance are 'Mexican', not 'Spanish'. Actually, from my personal perspective, I like to terminate the 'Spanish' period with the establishment of Santa Fe in 1610, or possibly with the Pueblo Revolt of 1680, since this seems to be the far tail end of the 'Conquistador' period, where the explorers were essentially European born. Everything after that up to 1821 was technically 'Spanish', but effectively 'Mexican'. Semantics, I guess, but that's just me.

 

[Cubfan64]

Hi Oro:

What,exactly,would you consider a "Documented historical report"?
Is anything else,written and illustrated but not published from a time prior to Kino,even Coronado worth posting?
Have you ever heard of the "Cocomaricopas" or "Stuc Cabitic" or a large ruin called "Castillo Blanca",12 legua N buy way of a four vara wide trail,of an illustrated four story ruin,or even "Arte de la lengua castellana".
I had not,before last evening.

Regards:SH

Sounds like you're describing a journal or diary? The hard part with things like that is authenticating them - but I know I'd be interested and I'm guessing it would be right up Oro's alley too