How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[Ellie Baba]

You are right cubfan. Imagine how I felt discovering these monuments! My Father was investing his life savings and I told him that he was being conned by a major scam. He said that if I could prove him wrong he would bail. Turns out that it was, as the head guy disappeared and he was never heard from again. He was selling the same stock to three different groups and amassed a huge some of money. This all started in 1984, and my life has been changed forever. I did exactly what my Father asked and I started with the hearts, arrow and the horse. I found so much more like hidden messages, symbols that were witnesses of major historical stories, etc. There are dates, numbers, angels, demons, artistic murals 1/2 of a mile long, clock symbols, shadow monuments over 1,000 feet in height! Have you ever seen or heard of an animated shadow sign? Talk about blowing your mind!
DaVinci knew of this secret art form that has been lost for centuries. Unbelievable? You bet! There is more; pyramids as blue as an azure stone and not just one, there are three. This goes on and on and I have kept all of this info under my hat till now. I have stacks of info to share along with the proof to back it up. I will say this; The people who made the maps were members of an ancient race that has existed from the building of the pyramids and have been hidden within the secret societies ever since. Some will say I am nuts! No problem, for the truth is right in front of you if you will just take the time to see it.

Stay tuned.

EB

 

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[Cubfan64]

You are right cubfan. Imagine how I felt discovering these monuments! My Father was investing his life savings and I told him that he was being conned by a major scam. He said that if I could prove him wrong he would bail. Turns out that it was, as the head guy disappeared and he was never heard from again. He was selling the same stock to three different groups and amassed a huge some of money. This all started in 1984, and my life has been changed forever. I did exactly what my Father asked and I started with the hearts, arrow and the horse. I found so much more like hidden messages, symbols that were witnesses of major historical stories, etc. There are dates, numbers, angels, demons, artistic murals 1/2 of a mile long, clock symbols, shadow monuments over 1,000 feet in height! Have you ever seen or heard of an animated shadow sign? Talk about blowing your mind!
DaVinci knew of this secret art form that has been lost for centuries. Unbelievable? You bet! There is more; pyramids as blue as an azure stone and not just one, there are three. This goes on and on and I have kept all of this info under my hat till now. I have stacks of info to share along with the proof to back it up. I will say this; The people who made the maps were members of an ancient race that has existed from the building of the pyramids and have been hidden within the secret societies ever since. Some will say I am nuts! No problem, for the truth is right in front of you if you will just take the time to see it.

Stay tuned.

EB

Ellie,

Thanks for the very respectful response back! It's much easier to have differences of opinion and discuss things when both sides can put themselves in the other's shoes!

As I said before, I give you MAJOR points for "putting your money where your mouth is" by posting photos to back up your ideas. I would never say you haven't discovered something because you very well might have - I'm just not in a position to say I agree with you..... yet

I'm "staying tuned"

 

[Springfield]

... I will say this; The people who made the maps were members of an ancient race that has existed from the building of the pyramids and have been hidden within the secret societies ever since. Some will say I am nuts! No problem, for the truth is right in front of you if you will just take the time to see it.

Nearly all of the 'lost mine/buried treasure' lore available in the public domain is designed to sidetrack the curious, IMO, released by contemporary members of these 'societies'. I suspect that the secreted wealth (whatever it may be) is probably millenia(s) in age and is certainly not 'lost', nor has it ever been. The evidence is abundant, but what is lacking are the identities of the owners and the motivation for continuing to keep the secrets hidden even today. I hope you have more ideas to share, EB.

 

[Oroblanco]

Somehiker wrote

Hi Oro:

What,exactly,would you consider a "Documented historical report"?
Is anything else,written and illustrated but not published from a time prior to Kino,even Coronado worth posting?
Have you ever heard of the "Cocomaricopas" or "Stuc Cabitic" or a large ruin called "Castillo Blanca",12 legua N buy way of a four vara wide trail,of an illustrated four story ruin,or even "Arte de la lengua castellana".
I had not,before last evening.

I see that others have already answered this pretty well, though I should have said some document that we can definitely date to 1847 or earlier, (before US takeover) that specifically mentions traveling into and/or through what we call the Superstitions today. I never found a single document which could support this idea of Spanish and/or Mexicans venturinig into the Superstitions, which may sound silly since we know they trekked much farther into the north lands than there but - there it is. It seems there was nothing to attract their attention there. It is one of my "pet peeves" how so many folks imagine Spanish conquistadors traipsing through and into every remote side canyon all over the western USA, but in truth their explorations were very far from being so thorough - just look at how much they MISSED entirely, like the vast gold fields of the Mother Lode country of California, including Sutter's Mill where the gold was visible in the creek bed. Those Spaniards were GOOD, but just not THAT good.

Shadow writing - hoo boy another minefield stacked with vast possibilities for error. I will say only one thing about "shadder writing" - if it is large, it is almost certainly NOT done by man. These were created for use by the makers and their friends only, not as huge signposts to draw folks in from miles away, and should only be "readable" at certain times of the day (sunrise, noon, sunset). There IS such a thing as shadow writing, but I sure can't prove it and don't have a single photo of a genuine article to show what they should look like. They are done in LOW relief not high, sharp contours, so as to blend into the background - and should be small enough that a passerby could easily miss it. If I can locate a good photo of a genuine shadow writing, I will post it here - but doubt there are any online to find.

My apologies for being absent from class again, probably will be absent more often in the near future for a while.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Roy,

I certainly hope you get your work schedule straightened out before the Rendezvous. It's painful, but life has a way of getting in the way of our hobbies. On the other hand, I do understand just having to get things done before the white stuff flies.

Have to agree with all of your points. A little imagination goes a long way in seeing things that (might) be there in nature. Many have made that observation about my own (Stone Map) map.

I have recently been accused of "failing to find it" in my years of searching the Superstitions. The fact is, I have always maintained that the Stone Maps could be a modern day creation. I never once took anyone into the Superstitions, without making that clear.

With that in mind, finding "it" was always secondary to seeing where the puzzle led. In that respect, I believe I have found "it", or at least believe the Stone Maps are no longer a puzzle. I don't fault others for continuing their own search, but still enjoy debating the subject. After all, there is absolutely no guarantee I am right, or even close to being right.

My own conclusions make a few people very angry, without their even having the ability to read a simple topographic map, such as the one I have provided.

I am not one of those who sees a sign in every natural cross/etc. In the mountains. Not enough imagination, I suppose. Chuck Kenworthy had that kind of imagination, which created a wonderful world of excitement for him. Many of the posters here have that same characteristic, and who's to say they are wrong.

I have found plenty of excitement and satisfaction in the Superstitions over the last 51 years, even without that vivid imagination. Met a lot of really great people, as well as a few total a$$ holes.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Met a lot of really great people, as well as a few total a$$ holes.

HAHAHA Ain't it the truth!

Take Care-Mike

 

[gollum]

Roy,

One quick note about Walter Gassler's Gold. The only evidence for its' existence are the statements of Tom Kollenborn.

A guy shows up at Kollenborn's House CLAIMING to be Roland Gassler. Shows Tom some rich gold ore and SAYS it came from his father's backpack. He then asked for and received all the papers Gassler left with Kollenborn and disappeared forever. Turned out that Kollenborn met Roland Gassler several years later, and he was NOT the guy that had showed up at Kollenborn's Home.

That gold was never tested against the known ore from under Waltz's bed. If you read as Joe advised another to do, Tom Glover's Book on the LDM, you will find one other EXACT match, and one match from the same area but not the same mine.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

<Drifting way off-topic here>
Joe we are sure trying to make it work, sometimes it seems as if the fickle finger of fate just keeps throwing bags of flaming dog poo though. I won't bore you or our readers here with a long story, but will mention one of many such flaming gifts of aromatic plant food; we had to order our steel roofing, and did so, planning its arrival to time with our completion of the roof frame. The company told us Oct 4th, and by chance we were not quite ready so gave them a couple of extra days before calling to find out if we should make a trip to Rapid (city) to pick it up. During a break today (6th) we called to check, and they reported that there was a problem due to a steel shortage and it will be an extra week from today. Now comes the 'kicker' - our unpleasant cold and windy weather is set to make a major change for the worse, starting tomorrow night with snow and record breaking cold <expecting 10 deg F> predicted by weekend. As you might imagine, Arizona at its worst is looking surprisingly appealing....
</end off-topic drift>

Gollum wrote

One quick note about Walter Gassler's Gold. The only evidence for its' existence are the statements of Tom Kollenborn.

Perhaps I am missing your point here - are you saying that you do not have any faith in the opinion of Tom Kollenborn? I <personally> have confidence in his opinion, but it IS just his opinion and he could be mistaken. The story of Walt Gassler is quite a story in itself, and he was long convinced that Jacob Waltz was a complete liar, however I think Gassler in fact did find the mine. Just my own opinion of course.

I also do not wish to dissuade anyone further who wishes to use the Peralta Stones to seek treasure(s) - and who am I to say that what looks like a Templar knight is not a Templar knight. For that matter, even if the Peralta Stones are in fact modern creations, they can still lead to valuable treasures, but possibly of a different sort from what we commonly imagine.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I sure hope you and Beth make the Rendezvous, but I can see where the eight ball is quickly placing itself in just the wrong position.

As for Tom Kollenborn's word, I don't know if anyone posting here actually knows him, but I consider the Kollenborn's good friends. In this game, over the years, you will find many friendly acquaintances and a few good friends. If Tom or his wife tell me something, I know I can trust their word.

"One quick note about Walter Gassler's Gold. The only evidence for its' existence are the statements of Tom Kollenborn."

Just for the record, Tom's statement is not an "opinion". While opinions can be based on facts, they usually include beliefs, judgements, views, convictions and the occasional sentiment. Tom was writing about a personal, factual, experience.

Having said that, Tom has many opinions, like myself, and we often disagree.....with respect.

If you can make it to the Rendezvous and need a place to bunk, you're welcome to stay with us.

Take care and stay warm,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Roy,

If you peruse the Peralta Stone Threads, you will see what I think of Tom Kollenborn. While I don't know him personally, not one person I have ever talked to has ever said anything bad about him.

Joe has said that he has heard what Tom thinks changes depending on who he is talking to. In some company, he thinks one subject is a fable, but while discussing the same subject with someone else, he is a believer.

But...........you missed my entire point. The point was that the ore was only SEEN by Kollenborn. IT WAS NEVER TESTED to see if it matched the Kochera Ore, the Camp Ore, or the Jewelry Ore. There is absolutely no way to tell whether it was from the same place as the known ore samples. I don't doubt hat the fraudulent Roland Gassler showed TK some nice gold ore, but there is no way of telling where it came from. We only have the word of someone who lied to TK about their identity, and was never heard from again. Do you REALLY want to believe the fake Roland Gassler as to the origin of the ore he showed TK?

THAT was my point.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

... THAT was my point.

Best-Mike

And a good one. Whether disinformation is intentional or unintentional, it's still not the truth. This begs the question - just what information DO you believe is unimpeachable? Throwing out the lore gathered over the past 100-and-some years is easy because it's all hearsay, but what about the 'source data' from the contemporary Waltz period? Any good reason to bet the farm on any of it?

 

[Cubfan64]

Joe, you said:

Just for the record, Tom's statement is not an "opinion". While opinions can be based on facts, they usually include beliefs, judgements, views, convictions and the occasional sentiment. Tom was writing about a personal, factual, experience.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood Gollum, but he was NOT questioning Tom Kollenborn's story/recollection of what happened, he was only stating that it was only Tom Kollenborn's "opinion" what the gold ore he saw appeared to be the same as what he's seen as Waltz's "deathbed" ore. As Gollum mentioned, the only way to know for certain/fact is to have it tested - beyond that, it can only be considered as an opinion.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Mike did not write anything about Tom's statement being "opinion", that was what Roy wrote. I don't believe Tom ever stated he thought it was "Dutchman ore".

Mike,

It was only a few months/weeks after Walt's death that Tom met the son.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

And a good one. Whether disinformation is intentional or unintentional, it's still not the truth. This begs the question - just what information DO you believe is unimpeachable? Throwing out the lore gathered over the past 100-and-some years is easy because it's all hearsay, but what about the 'source data' from the contemporary Waltz period? Any good reason to bet the farm on any of it?

Springfield,

TONS of factual, incontrovertable period evidence of Jacob Waltz having a very rich gold mine exists. As Joe and I have both stated previously, I HIGHLY recommend reading Thomas Glover's two part book on the Lost Dutchman Story: "The Lost Dutchman Mine of acob Waltz Part 1: The Golden Dream" and "Part 2: The Holmes Manuscript". I personally think it is the best work on the subject.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Paul,

Mike did not write anything about Tom's statement being "opinion", that was what Roy wrote. I don't believe Tom ever stated he thought it was "Dutchman ore".

Mike,

It was only a few months/weeks after Walt's death that Tom met the son.

Take care,

Joe

OOOOPS. Its been a while since I read that. Book says a many weeks. For some reason I thought years. And right. Nowhere does it ever say that TK made any statements as to the origins of the ore the fraudulent Roland Gassler showed him. Roy had just made the comment that the Fake Gassler Ore matched the Jewelry Ore, and the only mention I had ever seen of that ore is when mystery man showed it to TK.

Best-Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

Mike did not write anything about Tom's statement being "opinion", that was what Roy wrote. I don't believe Tom ever stated he thought it was "Dutchman ore".

Mike,

It was only a few months/weeks after Walt's death that Tom met the son.

Take care,

Joe

Sorry Joe,

I must have misinterpretted something somewhere along the line because I thought the comments about Tom Kollenborn's "opinion" whether from Gollum or Oro were only directed at the source of the gold, and didn't have anything to do with whether the story Tom said was factual or not. I must have missed something

I could swear I remember reading somewhere that Tom K said the ore he was shown by the fake Roland Gassler looked like it was similar in appearance to "Dutchman" ore, however it's entirely probable that I've garbled the things I've read from books and the forum and am recollecting wrong. I'll check a couple things tonight and see if I was mistaken. For the time being, let's assume I am

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

No need to assume you are wrong, as you could just as easily be correct. It's really of no importance, and I probably shouldn't have mentioned it at all.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

TONS of factual, incontrovertable period evidence of Jacob Waltz having a very rich gold mine exists. As Joe and I have both stated previously, I HIGHLY recommend reading Thomas Glover's two part book on the Lost Dutchman Story: "The Lost Dutchman Mine of acob Waltz Part 1: The Golden Dream" and "Part 2: The Holmes Manuscript". I personally think it is the best work on the subject.

Best-Mike

I've read Part 1-a really good book. I realize lots of folks have confirmed that Waltz possessed a quantity of good ore, but it would be my contention that only he knew where it came from, whether from somewhere in the Superstition range or elsewhere, and he apparently did not divulge the secret. It's my understanding that the 'LDM community' has not yet acknowledged the LDM's location after lo these many years of searching by hundreds of determined people and despite numerous claims of discovery. This leads me to conclude that Waltz misinformed his contemporaries, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike and Springfield,

While I personally believe that Jacob Waltz had a rich gold mine in the Superstition Mountains, there is not a single document, that is confirmed as authentic, to back up that belief.

What we seem to have, are written stories by people who never knew Waltz. Most of those writers were Dutch Hunters, so all of the information we have received may have been sifted to screen out any important information.

There are many pieces of historical information about Waltz that we have documentation for. The LDM, unfortunately is not one of them. There are no Wells Fargo records or Arizona records to confirm that Waltz ever sold a single piece of ore. Everything is someone's story.

Those are the facts as I know them, others may dispute them.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I agree with some of what you say, but didn't Waltz sign for about $7000 worth of drafts at some point? I would have to break out some books, but I don't think I am too far off.

Jacob Waltz was not any kind of businessman. The only way he could have obtained that kind of money at one time is from successful mining/prospecting activity. While there is a lot of anecdotal evidence of his having a rich mine, there is virtually no PROOF of it.

Best-Mike