How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I checked into the war thingie some time ago. I believe there were 197 Waltz's, with 14 of them named Jacob.
There were 252 Weiss's, with 10 named Jacob. I wrote the numbers down, but did not note my sources.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Oroblanco]

Hi mi amigo Joe - yeah there are a lot of leads down that path, one or more will actually "fit" the circumstances necessary. Among the more interesting tidbits had to do with a Jacob Weiser in Idaho around the time of the Civil war starting, having found a nice amount of gold and leaving that area. There is also a Jacob Wisner in the Maricopa census of 1882, which actually is the "right" one I think. I am convinced that Wiser/Weiser/Wisner did NOT actually die at Walker's, for several reasons - one being we have no death certificate that would "fit" that circumstance, nor has anyone ever reported finding a grave of Wiser/W/W on the Walker ranch as far as I know.

Haven't we been down this road before? (the "real" Jacob Wiser) Maybe on another forum? Thank you in advance,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Oro, you said...

Haven't we been down this road before? (the "real" Jacob Wiser) Maybe on another forum? Thank you in advance,

I suspect that road has been traveled MANY times I can think of 2 places where it's been discussed quite a bit and odds are you may have stumbled across one of them.

I've got the information around somewhere regarding the Weiser in Idaho and the rich gold he found before he headed out of that area - seems to me I've read a bunch of discussions about that too, but I don't recall right now what the "verdict" was regarding him.

I honestly haven't seen anything that's ever convinced me he had a partner - I do tend to agree with Joe and Mrs. Oro that I have strong doubts as far as the Holmes story.

If I can come across the Weiser from Idaho notes, I'll see if I can post them here tomorrow.

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks amigo, and I am NOT sure about how it was spelled, could have been Wiser, Wisner, Weiser, Weisner, etc. (Haven't found a SINGLE Idaho newspaper archive online yet, and it is a wee bit o' a drive. )
Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Oro, I wasn't able to find my copies of the actual documents, but the sources concerning a Jacob Weiser finding gold in the Idaho area are:

1) The Daily Oregonian - 12/20/1861

The Daily Oregonian says that Jacob was coming into town with a load of gold dust and had sold his claim for $10,000 and has "retired from business".

2) History of Idaho, 1959 by Merrill D. Beal and Merle W. Wells, p. 292

This page details a Jacob Weiser finding excellent gold with rockers on the Salmon River.

If I can locate the actual documents, I'll post them here - Joe may have them in his records as well.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

I was in no way, what-so-ever, belittling Helen Corbin. Only that, I am of the opinion that she was using information gathered by Bob, and kind of putting it together and trying to make sense of it. (I, too, have read her book).

However, that does not put her in the same category as people like Holmes, Bob Corbin - or some of the 'hunters' who have put years into looking, personally, for all this stuff, plus other things. (obviously, the LDM does not just involve 'one man and his mine' - the name of another book written about the Lost Dutchman). Many a 'hunter' have gone through thousands of information sources, from ship's manifests, to geneology, to war records, to, obviously, the Peralta's, the "Stones", the Vulture Mine, etc., etc. (she went, I believe, mostly from what her husband had put together, which is interesting and informative, but not the same).

I do not, and cannot, put as much stock in the Holmes story (and I speak of the orginal Holmes, not his son, as I believe the younger Holmes believed everything his father said, and was going off some false information). And there is plenty of information around that can agree with and disagree with lots of other information.

Personally, I like the geneological aspect of it, but I like finding lineage, anyway.

It won't, however, prove or disprove the location of the LDM. What it MIGHT do, is prove or disprove that the 'hunters' have the story correct - which, frankly, I don't believe the story (as we think of it - the standard story) is correct. If it was, Holmes would have had the mine. (where ever it might be), don't you think?

If YOU had followed the Dutchman around the hills, (enough to tick him off-like Dick) and had THE clue that showed me which way he traveled, plus him telling me where it was when he died, (as the story goes), I'd have the mine.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

Helen had the best sources in the business. While most of her information came thru Bob and his connections, she developed her own ideas and theories. I know, factually, that he did not agree with everything she wrote.

I don't know how many times she went into the Superstitions, but I have been told that she made trips into the range with Bob.

I did not take your comments the wrong way, but was trying to explain that Helen was very knowledgeable in many fields, and the LDM was something she knew very well. What Helen had over just about every other Dutch Hunter, was a very wide selection of sources and the ability to have all of their stories in one place and time.

When I joined the LDM Forum, I thought I knew just about everything there was to know about Jacob Waltz and his mine. What a joke! Since that time, I have met, talked with and been helped by the best Dutch Hunters alive. It's been quite an education.

After almost 51-years (one month short) of living next to this legend, it's only natural that I'm opinionated, but I am still seeking the truth about the Superstitions and their legends.

I am in total agreement with you on Dick and Brownie Holmes, and yet a man I have complete respect for feels just the opposite, and he and Brownie were very close friends. That fact gives me pause in voicing my opinion in my usual delicate manner.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA Cubfan (and everyone) - I am sure I read about the Idaho Jacob Wiser in an Idaho newspaper article, old. I was not aware it was available elsewhere, perhaps some clue exists there that would help track down the movements of this J. Wiser?

I have to gripe here too - stopped at the Rapid City library the other day to have a look-see at their newspaper archives, only to find that they now charge $70 for a library card, and their microfilm machines charge by the minute - accepting $1 and $5 bills. Sheesh, and they call treasure hunters "greedy".....
Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

I have to gripe here too - stopped at the Rapid City library the other day to have a look-see at their newspaper archives, only to find that they now charge $70 for a library card, and their microfilm machines charge by the minute - accepting $1 and $5 bills. Sheesh, and they call treasure hunters "greedy"..... Roll Eyes
Oroblanco

I've started to get a bit irritated with our local "historians" as well. I've been trying for over a month to get in to see some old local newspapers from the early 1900's and I get nothing but the runaround. First they say I have to make an appt., then they tell me they don't allow the public to browse any of their old newspapers EVER, then they tell me they will look up any specific information I want. If I knew the exact day and column of the newspaper I would find my information in it would be fine, but I don't - I can only narrow it down to a few days. Ive' made a dozen phone calls and sent a dozen e-mails with no responses or follow ups, and when I call to set up an appt., either the right person isn't available, or they tell me to send an e-mail to make it. I even stopped by in person twice (over an hour away from where I live), and got nowhere then either (once again, the RIGHT person wasn't available to help me).

I often get the feeling these days that these "historians" mostly just want to preserve the past, but do it in such a way that NOBODY can ever access it. Reminds me of the stories I've heard about archaeologists and anthropologists storing away 99% of their finds in boxes in basements of museums where they'll likely never again see the light of day - except of course for the few "elite" individuals who can get access for research purposes.

It gets pretty annoying!

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

hey!

 

[Cubfan64]

Hi PWP - I shouldn't have generalized, but I Just haven't had many good experiences yet with archeologists. I'm sure there are good ones out there who would welcome someone with a metal detector helping them on some of their site research, but so far I haven't run into any of them - the words "metal detectorist" seem to be associated with "historical thief" - probably justified in many instances, but they shouldn't generalize either

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

no, you are correct cubbie, most historians are frumps...get so lost in their research, they forget people still exist.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Wow! I hate to disagree with you my friend, but my experience has been just the opposite. I have found most archaeologists and historians to be very friendly and giving of their time. At least those that I have contacted and there have been a few.

I learned a long time ago that it pays, if possible, to go directly to the top of the food chain.....on any topic. It's amazing how effective that can be when trying to open doors of communication. I seldom settle for no, especially from people who are guarding the throne ......so to speak.

On a number of occasions, I have been told something doesn't exist, or "we don't have it", only to try another person and find out, "of course we have it, how can I help you?"

A few times that come to mind, were good examples of people going the extra mile to help a stranger:

Last year a friend (a priest) went to the New Mexico State Records Center & Archives, to try and locate a certain file for me. He was told, "we don't have it". I made a phone call and got the Senior Archivist. He assured me they did have the file, and gave me the name of the man who could get it to me. Two email's later, I had the file in hand.

More recently, I tried to locate a file that is housed in the Arizona Historical Society. Couldn't reach the lady in charge, left my name and number, and she called me back. We exchanged a few email's, and I have the file, as well as a copy of the original hand written version. Great experience with both institutions, and don't have over $35. invested, in total.

As you may have noticed, I received information from a well known archaeologist last year. Susan Martin was kind enough to answer a number of email's, and fleshed-out her resume for me. It was all in relation to the conversation we were having about copper, and the mining done in ancient times. I went to one of the top authorities on the subject.

When I wanted information on Hyrum Smith Peterson, I went directly to his ancestors, and specifically to someone who had researched and written about her families' history. Once again, the lady was very helpful and friendly, and sent me more than I could have hoped for.

Hope your future contacts turn out as well as mine have.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pegleglooker]

I agree, I also found that if you do get some info ( even if it's not all that great ) put a dollar in their donation can. They REALLY appreciate it, and if the info is good put in 5 or 10 dollars.
I had a head archivist make a copy of a book that would have cost me about $130, for about $50 ( including the paper ). I also gave the one doing the work $ 20... Why ?? from that I have
received about another $50 of copies and info FREE !!! It's a old saying " you scratch my back I scratch yours " or in modern lingo " networking "
Also pies are a REAL favorite

PLL

 

[Cubfan64]

I wonder how much of it is due to the area of the country? Since moving out east, I just haven't found people in general to be as friendly and helpful.

Anyways... don't want to derail the thread this much.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

I do not think Holmes (the son) is a bad guy at all. In fact, he may be a great person. And, obviously, he believed everything his father talked about, and dedicated a large part of his life to trying to fulfill his father's dream.

BUT, he still had only what his father said to go by. And it is obvious to me, without a doubt (IMO) that his father did not have it right.
If he did, considering the fact that he followed the Dutchman into the hills and the Dutchman supposedly told him where it was - the man never found it. And we (I) just cannot ignore that fact.

To go back to the original question of this forum. Maybe we should re-phrase the question.

RE: How sure is it that the Lost dutchman mine is in the Superstition WILDERNESS?


B

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

The following is a post from Gregory Davis, who has more information on the Superstition Mountains and the LDM, than just about anyone......short of God.

"Providing the following is true, Here is what I understand to be the maps that Ruth had with him when he went into the mountains in 1931. 1. A topographic map of the area. 2. A map which the sheriff took from the body of Ruth and later used to try to find the mine. 3. A map which Barkley and Holmes found on the body and used for awhile to search for the mine. Realizing they would be prime suspects if they were caught with the map in their possession, they eventually burned it."

I have also heard that Brownie talked about seeing the silver plate that Ruth had in his leg. That plate is not mentioned as being found with Ruth's remains, so I assume he saw it before those remains were officially found.

The "Barkley" mentioned above was likely Tex's son, Bill. If Bill and Brownie were in anyway involved in the events surrounding Ruth's death, it is not hard to figure out why Tex created, or helped create, the massive smokescreen/cover-up that followed.

Bill was newly married at the time, and I believe his wife had just had a baby. Not a good time for the Barkley's to be embroiled in this kind of incident.

Beyond that, it was Brownie who found Ruth's skull and immediately identified it as belonging to Adolph Ruth. It seems obvious that the skull was meant to be found and the obvious reason was to move the subsequent LDM searchers away from Ruth's real destination.

I have to admit that my own conclusions are probably wrong, as someone I believe knows the truth and the facts, has stated that what we know leads us to false conclusions. On the other hand, he can't offer up the facts that he does know.

I am left with a bad feeling about Bill Barkley and Brownie Holmes, but nothing I can hang my hat on.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

I am left with a bad feeling about Bill Barkley and Brownie Holmes, but nothing I can hang my hat on.

Definitely an issue I, too, stumble around about. I always have this nagging feeling in the back of my mind that there is something that I just should be able to put my finger on, but can't.

Annoying, isn't it?

B

 

[Old Dog]

Beth,

Don't feel all alone in that area,
I know I stumble around wondering a lot.
especially when a sign pops out that will only work in this one spot ...
and is totally unrelated to what you are chasing.

A whole lot of whens and wheres and whys even a WTF or two.

LOL
Thom

 

[Oroblanco]

Thom wrote

I know I stumble around wondering a lot.

Well now it is CONFIRMED - you have the fever! I wander around stumbling a lot, and stumble around wondering a lot, but of course one gets that way from our pastime....
<SHADDUP Real de Tayopa!> (I know he will take that as a real compliment! )
Oroblanco