How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[pegleglooker]

Well... if the Dutchman was a immigrant, he would have spoken his native language, and learned some english when he lived back east, and finally spanish when he came out west.... no

PLL

 

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[missbuffy67]

Can anyone tell me.... have there been other names for Weavers Needle? I've been searching through old maps of all types to find a couple geographic features mentioned in the notebook I saw to no avail. I can't find them anywhere. And I've run out of ideas of where to look. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Buffy

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

Supposedly, the sister came here FIRST - before Jacob. Then Jacob, Ignote, etc.

Secondly - the sister did NOT have to have the same last name. My brother's last name is different than mine - there can be many reasons for that. Different father, a previous marriage, a choice to use a different name, etc.

Gee, I think even Helen Corbin said she came here before Jacob, didn't she? (have to check that).


Thirdly, why would a man who has a sister and other relatives in the US send $7,000 to his sister, first of all, and why would he not continue the relationship. Could it be a repayment of sorts? He certainly didn't leave anything to his family. Not even so much as a "hey sis, you know that gold dust I sent you, well, let me tell you where it came from now that I am sick".

I'm very cynical about anything that Holmes says. I think he was a liar, at best, and, human nature being what it is, I just don't put much stock in the idea that he wanted someone else to find it, even if he couldn't. (relative or otherwise), and he obviously did not have the right information - if he did, we wouldn't be talking about it today - we'd all know for sure, wouldn't we? He MAY have tried to get it out of him on his death bed - but here is another issue - if he (waltz) wanted Julia to have it, why would he a) give the gold under the bed to Holmes (instead of giving it to Julia - god knows, he gave her gold before), and b) undermine her, after talking care of him and wanting to take her to the mine, by giving the info to Holmes? I'm pretty sure, on his death bed, he was probably babbling things - working for years in hospice, I know that sort of thing happens - but it doesn't mean its true stuff, and to a man he didn't trust. It's just the kind of stuff I cannot swallow, and tend to "ignore" as good info. In fact, I do believe that IF Waltz talked to him, and he knew what he was talking about, it is very likely he sent him on a wild goose chase, just to make sure he wasn't in Julia's way.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Beth,

I am going from memory, which is not so good anymore, when I post from work. Most of Helen's facts came through her husband, Bob Corbin. I will be talking to him pretty soon, so I will ask about the sister's information. When I get home, I will crack Helen's book and see what it says.

Whatever name you use for the son of Waltz's sister, it should be the same as her married name. It is unlikely it changed from Schmidt, and even more unlikely that the son's last name would be different. I will let you know what those facts are.

I am in total agreement with you on Dick Holmes, but that does not mean he didn't have some accurate information. I don't believe Waltz was a serial killer, and I don't believe Julia was selling tickets to his death bed.

"Thirdly, why would a man who has a sister and other relatives in the US send $7,000 to his sister...."

I am unsure what you mean by this question. If you can clarify it, there may be an answer.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Okay now I have more questions. I know Beth is fairly convinced Holmes gave us a lying account, but it is possible that Waltz gave Holmes false information and Holmes was simply repeating it. However we do know that even though Holmes first waypoint for a seeker of the LDM was First Water (if memory serves) yet the very first place he ran to after Waltz's death was to find the remains of the "murdered nephew". Which brings me to my first question.

Is it possible that Waltz referred to Weiser as his "nephew" in his account to Holmes, even though he was unrelated? I have been going on this assumption, but assumptions can lead a fellow far from the mark. Do we know of all the relatives of Jacob Waltz? Could Wiser have been a cousin, or son of a cousin (which could lead him to call him a "nephew" rather than saying it is my cousin's son)? I have not researched the family tree of Waltz enough to know the answer to this and can't get at my own refs just yet.

I had not thought about how odd it is that Waltz left -zilch- to his blood relatives. Why would he have so deliberately left them nothing? Was there some family quarrel?

Missbuffy wrote

missbuffy67
Insert Quote
Can anyone tell me.... have there been other names for Weavers Needle?

If we can put any faith in the "treasure maps" it might have been called Sombrero peak, though another peak is generally associated with that name. Have you looked through the treasure map collection of Apache Junction public library online? They have something like sixty or more. Here is the linkee
http://www.ajpl.org/aj/museum/treasm.htm
I am sure that some of our fellow members here can give a much more definitive answer.

Pegleglooker wrote

Well... if the Dutchman was a immigrant, he would have spoken his native language, and learned some english when he lived back east, and finally spanish when he came out west.... no

Yes, that is a possible explanation. I suppose it is also possible that Weiser drew the map and someone else wrote in the notation, or a part of the notation - I am no expert in handwriting analysis but perhaps someone here could say?
Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I think Waltz lied to Holmes. What I think Holmes was lying about is the "giving of the gold" to him.

CJ,

Yea - sometimes the memory fails me too. (unfortunately, don't always have time to go back and check, either - I have to wing it). Good memory - but short.

I don't think Waltz was a serial killer either. (though not beyond protecting what he considered his property).

B

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

When I was a bit younger, actually quite young, I seldom made a factual statement that was wrong. These days I find my factual statements to be.......not always accurate.

If you are going to use Helen/Bob Corbin for a source, and they are two of the best, you need to reread chapter 1. On page 11 she shows the manifest of the Ship Olbers with Jacob Waltz and Jacob C. Weiss arriving in the Port of Orleans on November 17, 1839.

On page 8 she wrote:

"Often if a family was in particularly bad straits, a strong family member went ahead, alone, and would work until he had saved enough to bring other members over."

She was writing about Jacob Waltz at the time.

On page 13 Helen writes:

"Later, we can document eight of the clan leaving for Bremen late in the 1840s where they boarded the steamer Heinrich Von Gargaren, their port of entry also being New Orleans."......."Waltz family records from Missouri showed initially they settled in Medina County, Texas, (Castroville) in 1850. Ignote is recorded as is another Waltz, Sabastian, who wasn't on the federal census but did show up later on land deeds. Jacob's sister, already married in the homeland, bore the name Schmidt. She and her husband eventually migrated to Lawrence, Kansas."

The only other brief mention of Jacob's sister is in connection with a $7,000 "Transmitting Draft On Accountable Warrant" sent by Jacob Waltz, to Lawrence Kansas. In my opinion, both the "Draft" and the Olbers Manifest have problems. I firmly believe that Helen/Bob's source firmly believed they were authentic, as did the Corbin's.

The impression given is that Jacob came to this country first, and his sister followed later.

Interestingly enough my friend Thomas, who has researched the Waltz family extensively, here and in Germany, makes no mention of the sister. I have never asked him about her, but will.

Back to the Holmes account: "Before I made plans for the next trip, I wrote to my sister in Germany and told her to send her son over to help me. I sent her several thousand dollars and told her there was lots more to be had. Soon after my nephew arrived in Phoenix, I took him out to the mine."

The quote is very explicit and detailed.

In the Holmes account it is clear that the person Waltz killed was his sister's son......his nephew. Holmes is the source, and his manuscript is the only original source for this story. Having said that, I don't believe a word of this particular story. To begin with, Jacob's sister was not in Germany, but in Kansas.......Toto.

I believe Waltz may have described the mine to Holmes, but gave another part of the range as the location.

I believe this should be the final word on the "nephew" story, but perhaps you have another source.

Take care,

Joe

This post is not double spaced. I have no idea why it shows up that way.

 

[missbuffy67]

Oroblanco thank you for the link. Unfortunately I have been over those maps already. A couple of times. I've also been looking at USGS maps, survey maps, maps of geographic features.... anything and everything I can think of. So far this confirms my theory that the mine Reuben Neill wrote about was not in fact the LDM of legend. Most likely it was another "dutchman" and another mine.
So, my search continues. But I can probably guarantee everyone that my search will be nowhere near the Superstitions or Weaver's Needle or indeed any of the accepted LDM probable locations. Not much chance of me getting in anyone's way or stepping on any toes. lol
That being said, has anyone ever heard of Moses Rock?

 

[cactusjumper]

MB,

Four Corners.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[missbuffy67]

Thanks so much!! Haven't found it yet, but that actually works in the context I'm working in.

 

[Old Dog]

another shameless bump.
just to follow along.

Thom

 

[Cubfan64]

Oroblanco - you said...

I have to ask here, suppose it could be proven (absolutely) that Waltz had a real person as a partner - (I think we know what public records Capt Bill is referring to)

Are you comfortable elaborating on the specifics of what those public records are? Anything you can share?

 

[cactusjumper]

MB67,

If you are planing on visiting Moses Rock, be aware it is on the Navajo Reservation. You should get permission before you go, which may not guarantee you won't be run off.

Moses Rock is located on Garnet Ridge which runs N/E out of Arizona into Utah. It is about six miles N/W of Mexican Water. Another interesting fact is that it is only eight-miles north of the "Old Spanish Trail".

The eleavation is about 5250'. N37 0'45" W109 43'29" will put you in the ballpark. There is a pretty good road to Garnet Ridge.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I suppose it is also possible that Weiser drew the map and someone else wrote in the notation, or a part of the notation - I am no expert in handwriting analysis but perhaps someone here could say?"

It makes sense that, over the years, most of those maps were changed as they passed through different hands before becoming public. Personal notations, attempts to add more information and efforts to mislead others.

On the other hand, IMHO, many "treasure" maps are likely frauds from the get-go.

I am of the opinion that most of the maps that have been circulated by Dutch Hunters, were drawn using known landmarks and anomalies in the range. The better ones, such as the Stone Maps, were drawn by people who had spent years in the Superstitions and knew them very well.

Drawing a map and placing an X where you know there is a worthless prospect hole, certainly will get a treasure hunters blood pumping. The high places in the mountains will show the accuracy of those maps, and in fact, is where they were likely drawn from.

Using my own knowledge of the mountains, I could easily create a lost treasure story and map to go with it. Anyone following that map would find each and every landmark where it belongs. That alone has convinced many treasure hunters/Dutch Hunters that they have an authentic map.

Most maps are copies of the "originals", so there is no way to authenticate them by testing the paper/ink for the correct era. Experts will use other methods of authentication, but the believer will pay no attention to that kind of expertise.

Take care,

Joe

 

[missbuffy67]

MB67,

If you are planing on visiting Moses Rock, be aware it is on the Navajo Reservation. You should get permission before you go, which may not guarantee you won't be run off.

Moses Rock is located on Garnet Ridge which runs N/E out of Arizona into Utah. It is about six miles N/W of Mexican Water. Another interesting fact is that it is only eight-miles north of the "Old Spanish Trail".

The eleavation is about 5250'. N37 0'45" W109 43'29" will put you in the ballpark. There is a pretty good road to Garnet Ridge.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Thanks again for the info. No plans on visiting. Still doing research and looking up historic names. From what I've seen, the most likely location for the mine Neill wrote about is on a reservation. But I still haven't narrowed it down. One of the problems I'm having is that place names change over the years and a lot of times you can find 3 or 4 things with the same name.
Personally, I don't have the resources or ability to do a physical search. But, as aggravating as the research can be I'm loving it. This is a real challenge and has been a great way occupy my mind. I may never solve it, but I'm enjoying trying.

 

[cactusjumper]

MB,

If your research has led you to Moses Rock, I believe we are talking about a mine, other than the LDM.

As for the names changing, that is very true. It also applies to the Superstition Mountains. Makes things a little more confusing....for sure.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

I am certainly not meaning to use Helen Corbin as a source - just as a postscript, because its been awhile since I've read her stuff.

The bottom line, for me, as far as Holmes (both) Bob and Helen Corbin, etc., is that the information all comes from the same places, plus, Helen wasn't even a dutch hunter, so to speak. (not like Bob).

I realize that Weiss is on the manifest - you actually can only document that there was a Weiss there, not THE Weiss, really, and, I don't believe that you can document the entire steamtrip, either. (of which H. Corbin showed a manifest of, but not with all eight men). Nor, with his sister's trip - in other words, an assumption on her part - though a good possibility, still an assumption.

I have followed some of the geneology of the Waltz family - which, by the way, their name was changed on no less than 5 occasions, including the use of Waltz, Walz, and Weiss (da, da!) along with a couple others. (certainly makes it more difficult to follow, doesn't it), and, strangely enough, the same German place of residence was the same.

It's such an intriguing story - I really try NOT to ignore anything, but do try to put it in order.

But - there are also other players in this story, aren't there?

The biggest problem is that it mostly all comes back to people getting info from Holmes. And that's where my problem starts.

B

 

[Cubfan64]

Mrs. Oro said:

The biggest problem is that it mostly all comes back to people getting info from Holmes. And that's where my problem starts.

You're certainly not alone on that one! One of the first decisions I had to make concerning that LDM story was whether I wanted to focus on the Holmes side or the Thomas/Petrasch side. I've found it can almost be like the "Hatfields and McCoy's" when you get believers in the two sides in the same room together!

While I keep an open mind on the matter, my gut has told me to focus on the Thomas/Petrasch side. I may be incorrect, but I believe I've heard CJ mention on a number of occasions that it's important to look at where Julia went on that first couple searches she undertook for the mine and or caches. Will that lead anywhere? Dunno, but I don't think you can put any better picture together regarding where Waltz told her and Rhiney to go - of course, that assumes Julia and Rhiney paid enough attention to Waltz's directions in the first place.

Would either you (Mrs. Oro) or Mr. Oro be willing to share more information about what public records you think Cpt. Bill has referred to earlier?

 

[Oroblanco]

Cubfan wrote

Are you comfortable elaborating on the specifics of what those public records are? Anything you can share?

Well we have already touched on one particular type of records, -military- and recall that according to the stories Waltz's partner was a Confederate soldier, as was Waltz. Jacob Waltz was pretty long in the tooth to be a soldier (he was 56 in 1861 if my math is right) but his partner could have been. It is always a bit more romantic to have a hero of a story be an ex-Confederate soldier, but you can find several Jacob Wiser's in the Union army and considerably younger than Waltz. Another place is one that is a "pay" site, Ancestry.com, has lists of passengers arriving in NYC, 1820-1950. It will take patience and perseverance to turn up the docs, as there are a number of Jacob Wisers, Weisers, Wisners etc in various spellings and several served as soldiers - in the Union army or Union militias.

There is even a possible explanation of how and when Waltz arrived in AZ, IF he either followed or was a member of the "California Column" - a troop of volunteers raised in California to march into Arizona to repel the Confederate invaders. (I think it unlikely that Waltz would have been a member due to his age.) I am sure someone with a list of the names of the members of the California Column (around 2000 men) should be able to check this out handily. It is perhaps "coincidence" that Henry Wickenburg entered Arizona 1862, traveled through some of the same country Waltz is known to, and discoverer of the famous Vulture mine.....

Another possibility may be linked to King Woolsey, who also entered Arizona in the early '60's and besides a colorful career as an Indian fighter (with Arizona "militia" troops, usually) joined the Walker party prospecting northern Arizona (and the party discovering the rich deposits of Lynx Creek).
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

About Helen Corbin.......When I first heard about her, I was told her book was not worth buying. In time, I knew I had to read it, and have. The advise I got was not good. Since then, I have learned a great deal about what a strong, talented woman she was. I learned from her close friends, her detractors, her books and her husband. I have come to admire her, although we never met. Like all of us, she made honest mistakes.

".....Helen wasn't even a dutch hunter, so to speak. (not like Bob). "

I would say the same thing about myself. That being said, I believe I have already left my mark on the Dutch Hunting Community, same as Helen did. I know a fellow named Ron, who has never been in the Superstitions, probably never will be, and he is a Dutch Hunter.

Many family names change over the generations. Dr. Glover gives a good background for the Waltz name, and Jacob Waltz himself, starting on page 112 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz". Thomas went to Germany and believes he has found the record of Jacob Waltz's birth. The Waltz name, in my opinion, is accurate.

It may very well be a coincidence that Jacob Weiss on the Olbers' manifest matches up with the name of the man who purchased part of the Gross Lode mines from William Gross. Jacob Waltz was a partner in those claims.

At this point in time, I believe that every book written, and every story told about the LDM is a fine mixture of mostly fiction with a dash of truth. I think the Holmes manuscript is a good example of that.

Paul has mentioned that the best place to start a search for the truth, is with Julia Thomas and Rhinehart Petrasch. The two of them, alone, made those first searches for the LDM.

When Brownie decided he had no real idea where the mine was located, he started a systematic search. The place he chose to begin that search was on the Main Mountain.......Just above where Julie and Rhiney tried to enter on their very first attempt.

Take care,

Joe