How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[gollum]

Lamar,

On the subject of the Lost Dutchman Mine, it is my professional belief that you are in waaaaaaay above your head. HAHAHA

There are a ton of books on the subject (a very few are worthy of any note). Having done much research on the subject, I can say that you are arguing the subject from about a 1980 point of view. I say that because since that date, there have been many facts come to light that prove (for the most part) the existence of Jacob Waltz's Mine.

To me, one of the biggest is the gold ore from under his bed that was tested and found not to have come from ANY known source of gold.

If you had taken the time to read a bit, you would know exactly what Waltz was doing up on that ledge:

"He was being chased by Apaches while out prospecting. After hiding until they left, he found himself at the camp of some Mexican Prospectors. They shared their food with him, and that is where he found that they were working a very rich gold mine. He proceeded to kill them all and take over their mine."

Those were the words of Jacob Waltz himself.

Your Jesuit Brothers don't seem to be doing you much good on this subject! HAHAHA

Best-Mike

 

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[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
You wrote:
I notice that you said, "...whenever they state something I tend to listen to them carefully". So when a geologist tells you something in the field of geology, you listen carefully. However when several experienced and seasoned prospectors tell you that many lode gold deposits HAVE NO ASSOCIATED PLACER, people with many thousand miles of field exploration, months at a time literally, possibly over a century of combined experience on three continents - you disbelieve it utterly, continue to stick to your guns about how a lode gold deposit ALWAYS has a placer associated and this is the ONLY way to find a gold lode vein deposit. Your attitude towards the words of your fellow T-net members versus some "paid professional" regardless of the vast experience and yes PAID geological exploration for mines, some of which have been paying very well is a mystery to me. I notice too, that some questions you ignore as if nothing was said. How would you like it if those "paid professionals" should treat your statements and questions with such aplomb? Maybe I should retract my invitation to go on a prospecting expedition to you Lamar, in fact in light of what I have seen, consider it never happened.

As you wish, my friend, however I DO consider myself to be a lifelong student and I am never too old or experienced to learn something new. I am also unaware of the members of T-Net's overall credenitials, therefore I must rely of what I've learned from my own experiences and from people whom I've associated with in the past. I am therefore merely repeating what I've heard spoken about and nothing more than this.

To expound on the movement of placer deposits, we can take a shining example of this with the Tipuani formations. The Tipuani is situated in the lower Andes mountains of Bolivia, and yet with the large annual torrential rain activity, the rivers running east of the Tipuani have gold in them.

Of course, the closer one gets to the formation, the larger the gold tends to become and also at times more plentiful, however the Tipuani formation feeds the entire Eastern river system all the way into Brazil. That's a long ways for gold to travel and it does travel that far and what's more, with the annual errosion taking place, the rivers tend to be recharged every year with fresh placers.

Now, one might state that since they are dredging for gold some 600 to 800 miles away from it's actual source that there does not exist a lode deposit associated with the placers, however there actually does exist one. By the same token, one may venture into the Tipuani formation and not be able to locate any large placers of note, yet the placers do exist, only they tend to do so several hundred miles east of the actual formation.

Also, there may exist a lode deposit which was uncovered by glacial activity and over time the glacier receded, thereby taking all of the placers deposit and literally sweeping them many hundreds of miles away, yet the placers were there, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
You wrote:
Lamar,
On the subject of the Lost Dutchman Mine, it is my professional belief that you are in waaaaaaay above your head. HAHAHA
That's cool.

Also:
There are a ton of books on the subject (a very few are worthy of any note). Having done much research on the subject, I can say that you are arguing the subject from about a 1980 point of view. I say that because since that date, there have been many facts come to light that prove (for the most part) the existence of Jacob Waltz's Mine.

To me, one of the biggest is the gold ore from under his bed that was tested and found not to have come from ANY known source of gold.
That's cool, however I do have a couple of questions. Where is this gold ore at now? I firmly believe that the ore must have came from SOMEWHERE and if it's matrix does not fit into the common matrii of the Superstition mountains, then it might behoove people to search for another possible source. In other words, if we are to assume that the gold did not just appear from Heaven, then there MUST be a source. If that source is not located in Arizona, then we may assume that the gold did not originate in Arizona, unless you happen to be one of those sorts who thinks if may have possibly arrived by an alien spaceship, or brought to America by the Templars, or the Jesuits made the gold out of lead, etc. In this case, attempting todetermine the source of the lode would be of no value.

Also:


Your Jesuit Brothers don't seem to be doing you much good on this subject! HAHAHA

Best-Mike

Are we not all brothers in Christ, my friend?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

Also, there may exist a lode deposit which was uncovered by glacial activity and over time the glacier receded, thereby taking all of the placers deposit and literally sweeping them many hundreds of miles away, yet the placers were there, my friend.

I don't know why I am bothering to reply to this, as Lamar does not believe or trust what I will say, but for the sake of our members and visitors who are reading our discussion, what Lamar has posted is incorrect. Gold lodes erode and produce placers only depending on the environment in which the lode (vein, bed, etc) is; if not exposed to erosive elements, such as water, wind, frost, sheer grinding, faulting, etc the lode may not erode whatsoever, and produce NO placer at all.

Lamar is also incorrect that all placers lead to a lode, even if some distance away. One example is known as a saprolitic placer, <Also known as an Eluvial gold placer> in which the lode has eroded in place leaving a placer with no lode, another example is where the lode eroded away and left an extensive placer of several types, and no part of the lode remains - an example of this is the huge platinum placer in Goodnews Bay Alaska though a few geologists are still proposing that some theoretical lode must still exist somewhere for this one, it is not the only such example. The vast and extensive gold placers of the Nome beaches have no source lode, the source having been destroyed long ago. Eluvial placers are fairly common in the SE USA, though I know of a few in the far-north country as well which were quite rich and productive.

As Lamar has expressed his becoming bored with discussing basic geology, of which he has some very incorrect conclusions, so I won't bore our readers any further with it. If anyone wants to discuss the geology of ore deposits, I would suggest starting a new thread and post an invitation here or drop a PM, I would be more than happy to join in. I do not hold any degree in geology but have been studying it for some time, and continue to, it is a fascinating science.

Lamar wrote, to our mutual friend Mike,

Are we not all brothers in Christ, my friend?

It seems that some of us are more like red-haired stepchildren. (heh heh)
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

Do you think that Jacob Waltz carried that $4000 worth of gold ore with him from California, and kept it hidden in his adobe shack from 1862 until 1891? Probability says NOT!

The known Waltz ore was made into some jewelry (which is still around). One piece of ore that was found in the Supers matches exactly the matrix in the Waltz Ore. Its' just that they have no matching sources anywhere. This leads reasonable people to say that the source of the Jewelry Ore/Waltz Ore has yet to be rediscovered.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
Let me see if I understand this correctly? A man lived in an ADOBE SHACK, all while sleeping on top of an estimated four THOUSAND dollars in gold At a set price of 20.00$ per ounce, that would work out to some 200 ounces of 24K gold. In today's world that would translate into some 225.00.00$ worth of gold ore. And yet, Jacob Waltz lived out the remainder of his life in an adobe shack? To quote your own words:

Probability says NOT!


Your answer, of course, is that Jacob Waltz was eccentric and therefore the explanation goes away, however if Jacob Waltz was in fact a bit eccentric, what would have stopped him from fabricating the whole story?

And so, IF there was in fact ore found under Jacob Waltz's bed and IF some of it ended up as jewelry, it should be a rather simple to match the ore's matrix with existing matrii located throughout the Superstitions. Geological matrii does not just alter itself without rhyme or reason, my friend. Even when one happens upon a sampling zone where there exists a sudden rise in one particular material, or even multiple materials, the overall matrix remains relatively unaltered.

With all of the thousands of existing cuttings and samples taken from the Supes, it would seem to be a rather simple proposition to be able to semi-match the Waltz ore with a known matrix and then zero in on that point. As this has not yet happened, one may assume that either the ore in question did not originate in the Supes or that the particular matrix occurance is extremely small and localized.

If this were in fact true, then there would exist the possibility of there being an extremely rare and as yet unrecorded instance of a matrix occurring within a matirx and this would be of great geological interest to all whom study the natural sciences.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Goodmorning Lamar :Not to be picky but it could easily be explained by simple vertical faulting due to an intrusion. This would be deep seated, allowing a single, or multiple channels for mineral rich solutions to rise vertically through the cracks that were formed.

For your information, one of the reasons that Tayopa had never been knowingly found before I did, is simply that it is in a region that is almost invariably precious mineral free.

Even today the large mining companies still ignore the area.

In the above scenario, a single fracture of extremely localized size could account for the LDM vein. and a such would be almost impossible to find using normal geological data or by simple foot prospecting using standard techniques.

It could well be in a depression as suggested, due to weathering of the softer materiels leaving the Quartz vein in a form of a pit. The erosion products and water could have been through a initial subterranean path thus 'filtering' out any evidence of the Gold.

Actually I can propose a number of if's, anyone of which would make conventional techniques of finding it, if it exists, almost impossible.

The 'hint' is that he said that no-one would ever find it, since it was not where a prospector would look for it..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Dear Gollum;
Let me see if I understand this correctly? A man lived in an ADOBE SHACK, all while sleeping on top of an estimated four THOUSAND dollars in gold At a set price of 20.00$ per ounce, that would work out to some 200 ounces of 24K gold. In today's world that would translate into some 225.00.00$ worth of gold ore. And yet, Jacob Waltz lived out the remainder of his life in an adobe shack? To quote your own words:

Probability says NOT!


Your answer, of course, is that Jacob Waltz was eccentric and therefore the explanation goes away, however if Jacob Waltz was in fact a bit eccentric, what would have stopped him from fabricating the whole story?

And so, IF there was in fact ore found under Jacob Waltz's bed and IF some of it ended up as jewelry, it should be a rather simple to match the ore's matrix with existing matrii located throughout the Superstitions. Geological matrii does not just alter itself without rhyme or reason, my friend. Even when one happens upon a sampling zone where there exists a sudden rise in one particular material, or even multiple materials, the overall matrix remains relatively unaltered.

With all of the thousands of existing cuttings and samples taken from the Supes, it would seem to be a rather simple proposition to be able to semi-match the Waltz ore with a known matrix and then zero in on that point. As this has not yet happened, one may assume that either the ore in question did not originate in the Supes or that the particular matrix occurance is extremely small and localized.

If this were in fact true, then there would exist the possibility of there being an extremely rare and as yet unrecorded instance of a matrix occurring within a matirx and this would be of great geological interest to all whom study the natural sciences.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

ONE MORE TIME:

You should REALLY read up on this subject. I will give you a very brief timeline of events:

Waltz was born in 1810. By the time he found his mine, he was about 60 years old. Since I doubt you have ever hiked in the Superstition Mountains, I will tell you that for a man of 60+ years (whether in 1870 or 2009) it ain't an easy feat. He had (according to himself) set up several caches of ore in the mountains in more easily accessible places. He knew quite well that he didn't have too many more trips into the difficult parts of the Supers (where is mine was). His plan was to go in and recover the smaller caches as his ore ran out. That was the plan he discussed with Julia Roberts and Reinhart Petrasch before he died. He was too old and infirm to just run into the mountains when he was getting low on ore. He had to conserve what he had. THAT is why he had (what turned out to be) $4000 in ore under his bed.

READ...READ....READ....READ

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Actually, Lamar,

If you did read up on it, and realize the times that Jacob Waltz lived in, it actually becomes MORE probable, than not.

Most everyone knows that our own families that lived during the depression, never quite got over that way of living. My own parents still saved bread bags and aluminum foil, though they certainly didn't have to. It was/is a mindset.

Looking at current times, we see many many many, immigrants (especially from Mexico) who live extremely frugally, and send 90% of their money back home to their families. They save, save, save - they live in ramshackle trailers, 5 or 6 or more to a trailer, and count their pennies, taking only what they absolutely need for themselves.

If you add age to this equation, as Jacob was indeed an older man, he came from a country to here, looking for something different than what he had. Add to that age, the knowledge that people did not live as long as they do now, so I am sure Jacob knew that he needed to collect whatever he could to take him through to the end of his life, which would be a good reason to work when he could, and cache it, for when he no longer could.


You can read in the newspapers every week , even now, somewhere - where someone who lived in poverty actually had a lot of money put aside, either in safe deposit boxes, stocks, under their mattresses, etc. Why then, would it be so improbable that someone in the 1800's would have done the same?

Do you spend all your money, every day, every week - I don't - most American's know that old saying of "saving for a rainy day". And, if it is hard earned money (like gold digging), you just might be MORE likely to stash away some extra, especially if you don't have things like Social Security to fall back on.

B

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
You wrote:
Since I doubt you have ever hiked in the Superstition Mountains,

And just where you draw this conclusion from, my friend? I do not ever recall stating whether I've been in the Supes or not, but if the truth be known, yes I have been in the Superstitions. And over most parts of Arizona, to be perfectly honest with you. In fact, I've worked in Arizona at least 6 different times, at various locales and in various capacities.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[arkhunter]

tag

 

[Ellie Baba]

Lamar,

Do you think that Jacob Waltz carried that $4000 worth of gold ore with him from California, and kept it hidden in his adobe shack from 1862 until 1891? Probability says NOT!

The known Waltz ore was made into some jewelry (which is still around). One piece of ore that was found in the Supers matches exactly the matrix in the Waltz Ore. Its' just that they have no matching sources anywhere. This leads reasonable people to say that the source of the Jewelry Ore/Waltz Ore has yet to be rediscovered.

Best-Mike

Hi Group,

Saturday afternoon while having a great time at Rendezvous I was shown one of the pieces of jewelry made from Jacob's ore and attached hereto is a photograph of the ring from that collection.

EB

 

[Old Dog]

Pretty stuff.

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi All,

I know the pic is huge, but I wanted to give you all a great detailed view of the ore. It is awesome! All I can say is this; do not miss out by not making to rendezvous next year. We had a blast and I made some new friends and reunited with old friends. I urge all of you to plan to come and be a part of history, no excuses. Couch potatoes, pool lizards and adventure seekers unite! Here's another couple of pics. Bob Schoose and Virginia Peralta, Joe Ribaudo and I'm bad with names, Don's Camp up against cliff and a beautiful sunset. Where were you Lamar my Friend?

EB

 

[Oroblanco]

Ellie Baba - THANK YOU for posting the photo! It is pretty, and easy to see why it was made into jewelry - I would have too if I had such a specimen.

I hope you and everyone had a great time, wish we were there. Thanks again amigo!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Ellie Baba]

Missed the Don's Camp photograph, soory about that. Ok., Don's camp, Dinosaur Mountain at Dawn, Rick Gwinne (treasure Hunter of the year award winner) and Bob Corbin in red cotton shirt.

EB

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

This is the ore you were asking about:

This is another picture I took of the ring last year:

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Dear Gollum;
You wrote:
Since I doubt you have ever hiked in the Superstition Mountains,

And just where you draw this conclusion from, my friend? I do not ever recall stating whether I've been in the Supes or not, but if the truth be known, yes I have been in the Superstitions. And over most parts of Arizona, to be perfectly honest with you. In fact, I've worked in Arizona at least 6 different times, at various locales and in various capacities.
Your friend;
LAMAR

If I was mistaken, then I apologize. Was that when you and the other Jesuit Bretheren were trying to recover the hidden Jesuit Cache near Weaver's Needle? HAHAHA

If you have been there, then you know how difficult it would be for a 60-70 year old man to climb through many parts of the range.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
You wrote:
If I was mistaken, then I apologize. Was that when you and the other Jesuit Bretheren were trying to recover the hidden Jesuit Cache near Weaver's Needle? HAHAHA

If you have been there, then you know how difficult it would be for a 60-70 year old man to climb through many parts of the range.

Best-Mike
No apologies are necessary, my friend! I've done a bit of work related to seismic explorations and it was from the resident field geologists and engineers that I first became interested in geology. One must talk about SOMETHING around the campfire and what better subject is there to discuss than those subjects which are related to work, for whilst one is at work, one must talk about something other than work, if I am not mistaken.

To sum up yet again, I am NOT a Jesuit, nor am I associated with the Order of the Society of Jesus in any way, size, shape or form. In fact, if the truth be told, I imagine that most of today's Jesuits would take a rather dim view on my version of Roman Catholic theology, doctrines, rubrics, etc. In light of this, I tend to maintain my distance in regards to the Jesuits, my friend.

And yes, it would be difficult, if not outright impossible, for a person with advanced years to navigate some parts of the Supes.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar and Mike,

"And yes, it would be difficult, if not outright impossible, for a person with advanced years to navigate some parts of the Supes."

While what you have said may be true of.......some, it is completely overstated. I personally know many Dutch Hunters over 60, who can out walk most 20 year olds. Having said that, I don't believe most people in this day and age have anything approaching the intestinal fortitude of
the pioneers of Waltz's era. They were truly giants, and those who preceded them were even taller.

History has taught us that our ancestors were larger than life, and something we can only imagine today.....except for some rare throwback hero's, such as those who can climb the stairs of the Twin Towers as everyone else was fleeing.

Just my personal opinion, so I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe