How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

To sum up yet again, I am NOT a Jesuit, nor am I associated with the Order of the Society of Jesus in any way, size, shape or form.

As this is a rather personal subject, you need not reply to this post and I will not be offended in any way. You have mentioned your "vows" previously, which outside of marriage, medicine or courts generally is found only in religious groups. When viewed in light of your defence of various accusations raised against the Jesuits, it seems a natural conclusion that one might think you to be a Jesuit. You have also mentioned your admiration for that Society, which would be a natural affection for a member of the society. You can readily see how someone could come to the conclusion you must be a member of the Society of Jesus, however mistaken.

Whether you are a member of any such society doesn't matter, though if you were a member of the SJ you would have access to records which might be extremely helpful for some of us. I hope that one day the writings and records of the Jesuits in Spanish and Portuguese America become available online as the Jesuit Relacions have, which covers the French colonial possessions in N. America. The Jesuit Relacions (relations) are online at

http://www.puffin.creighton.edu/jesuit/relations/

<covers the period 1610 to 1791, fascinating reading>
What we do have from the Jesuits, is a wealth of information - just one example is Rudo Ensayo, a description of Sonora and Arizona in 1764, which is only a few years before their expulsion.

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/rudo/

These Jesuit records are in many cases our only written record of various early Amerindian tribes, the minerals and mines of the country, the settlements, warfare and culture etc as it existed. The little "tidbits" we can find are gems in their own right - for instance, in our mining history books, we are told that very little blasting was done in the early days, yet if not for one Jesuit complaining about the Spanish miners using up all of the gunpowder being shipped into his region for blasting in the mines leaving none for the purpose of hunting game and defence, I would have believed that very little <if any> blasting was being done in the days of the Spanish colonial period when dynamite had not yet been invented.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

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[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
You wrote:
As this is a rather personal subject, you need not reply to this post and I will not be offended in any way. You have mentioned your "vows" previously, which outside of marriage, medicine or courts generally is found only in religious groups. When viewed in light of your defence of various accusations raised against the Jesuits, it seems a natural conclusion that one might think you to be a Jesuit. You have also mentioned your admiration for that Society, which would be a natural affection for a member of the society. You can readily see how someone could come to the conclusion you must be a member of the Society of Jesus, however mistaken.

To answer this, the last time I counted, there existed over 380 active religious Orders within the Holy Church, of which the Society of Jesus is merely one of those. Whilst I tend to agree with the Society of Jesus in principle, I also tend to disagree with some of their practices, however they ARE a part of the Roman Catholic Church as far as I am aware, and as such I am sworn to defend them from slanders, along with all other persecuted Roman Catholic members, both individuals and Orders. It's simply what I do, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

Dear oroblanco;
You wrote: <Oroblanco wrote>
As this is a rather personal subject, you need not reply to this post and I will not be offended in any way. You have mentioned your "vows" previously, which outside of marriage, medicine or courts generally is found only in religious groups. When viewed in light of your defence of various accusations raised against the Jesuits, it seems a natural conclusion that one might think you to be a Jesuit. You have also mentioned your admiration for that Society, which would be a natural affection for a member of the society. You can readily see how someone could come to the conclusion you must be a member of the Society of Jesus, however mistaken.

To answer this, the last time I counted, there existed over 380 active religious Orders within the Holy Church, of which the Society of Jesus is merely one of those. Whilst I tend to agree with the Society of Jesus in principle, I also tend to disagree with some of their practices, however they ARE a part of the Roman Catholic Church as far as I am aware, and as such I am sworn to defend them from slanders, along with all other persecuted Roman Catholic members, both individuals and Orders. It's simply what I do, my friend.
Your friend;

So you DON'T see how someone could arrive at the conclusion that you are a Jesuit? Thank you in advance
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
Honestly? No, I do not see how anyone could confuse me for a being a Jesuit, my friend. Overall the Jesuits seem to be a tad too liberal for my particular tastes, however they are excellent teachers and without them the world would be a much less enlightened place. I've been engaged in many debates with various Jesuit theologians in regards to the Novo Ordo Mass versus the traditional Tridentine Mass, etc. Of course I've always won because it's difficult to debate against traditional practices and whenever a person decides to sit down at that particular table, they had best bring a lunch with them because they are in for a very long day.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Desar oroblanco;
And yes, oddly enough I do have access to the Society's archives, although I honestly have no idea why this is so. Perhaps it comes from contacts within the Society which I've made years previously, or perhaps it's my desire for truth and knowledge. or maybe it's simply because I know how to phrase my requests in such a manner that they are willing to assist me. Many times, they seem to be more than willing in that they most generally provide me with much more information than I could possibly digest. This seems to be the Jesuit manner and they have always been quite forthwith and open with me.

Once, I mentioned in passing that I was interested in how exorcisms were viewed by the Roman Catholic Church, and as luck would have it they had an entire library crammed to overfilling with information on the subject and which they seemed willing to force feed to me whether I wanted it or not. By the time I left I felt like I was possibly due for an appointment with an exorcist.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

Honestly? No, I do not see how anyone could confuse me for a being a Jesuit, my friend.

I probably ought to be surprised, but this apparent inability to see things from another's point of view is also reminiscent of our mutual friend BB, long absent from our discussions.

I am jealous of your access to the Jesuit historical archives! I would have a difficult time with the Latin and various other languages, but it would be very interesting to say the least.
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
The problem with treasure hunters is that they tend to portray themselves as such and the Jesuits, having long been indoctrinated in the conspiracy theories, tend to offer up a pre-bundled bunch of confusing documents without so much as a thought as to the treasure hunter's particular request.

I approach the Jesuits as a scholar would, in a scholarly manner with a clear concise request for information on a given subject, which, coincidentally usually contains information on other subjects, those being alledged treasures, among other things.

If you approach the Society archivists with a request such as "I'd like to know about the Tucacomori mission and where the Jesuits hid all the loot at!" they will hand you the mainstream general history of the mission and wash their hands of the matter, however if you were to approach them with a request such as " I am interested in the regulating bodies of the missions of the New World, especially as how they were instituted in New Spain and also if there was a reliable system of inter-communication between the missions, and if so, how was it incorporated? I am writing a paper on the the success of the Jesuit missions in the New World and I would very much appreciate any and all assistance, blah, blah, blah"

If you do something like that, the archivists will dive into the subject and provide you with everything you could possibly need and much more. Of course, you will also need to produce a paper and submit it to them, at which point they will cheerfully tack it to the closest bulletin board and throw darts at it. They absolutely LOVE to punch holes in anything related to research. It's simply what THEY do and they are very good at it, so you need to be prepared for some very close critquing of your work, my friend. They will pore over every period and comma and cheerfully point out each and every mistake. And not only will they do this, they will also expect you to make all the corrections and then re-submit it at which time it goes back up on the bulletin board for round 2.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

And, in answer to what you posted to Oroblanco, anyone with cash can do what you are suggesting. I just found their application for getting documents. 30 bucks here, and 30 bucks there will get you into the archives.

B

 

[lamar]

Dear mrs.oroblanco;
In that case, I wish you all the best in your research. You may however, wish to review what I wrote to Oroblanco on that particular subject
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I have read what you wrote - that's why I decided to look up how to research the Jesuit archives - it seems queer to me that a non-Jesuit could get access, if other people cannot.

Here is but one of the things I came across:

http://www.jesuits-mis.org/PublicationsResources/MidwestJesuitArchives/ResearchandServices.aspx


There was a time that that was either not available, or not coming up on a search.

Of course, it comes complete with a fee schedule, so it may be more about the money.

B

 

[lamar]

Dear mrs.oroblanco;
By all means, please use the services which the Society of Jesus has so thoughtfully provided to the public. I am certain your knowledge will be enhanced in the process. By the way, the link which you have so thoughtfully provided encompasses the Jesuit activities in Chicage, Detroit, Missouri and Wisconsin, all of which are meaningful and interesting, to be sure.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

You asked for pictures of LDM ore, and when I supplied them you said nothing. I believe this one comes from the same source and is a little more impressive:

I would be willing to bet that the ore in the ring also came from the same source. The owner isn't talking.......

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Yes, I've seen the photos and I must say that they are highly speculative and controversial. Many geological experts are of the opinion that the supposed ore came either from the Vulture or from Rich Hill. I tend to feel that the ore in question came from somewhere other than Arizona dueness to the extreme whiteness of the bull quartz, HOWEVER this is NOT to say that perhaps Waltz did not happen to stumble upon a small outcropping somewhere during his wanderings. Again, there are simply too many variables involved in the story for me to give it credence as an actual story.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

Good looking ore, but not that unusual for hand-cobbled vein material. A full truck load of it pushes its importance up a healthy notch or two. That ring ore in post 356 is mighty pretty picture rock too, but I've seen many richer samples - used to have some myself until I gave it away/sold it. Again, if you've got a substantial quantity of this stuff, then you've really got something. Is $4,000 worth of high-grade (200 ounches gold equivalent) substantial? Yes, it's healthy all right. Has anyone determined the length of time it took to accumulate same? Years, wasn't it alleged?

In the bigger scheme of things, many, many jackass prospectors and inexperienced argonauts made comparatively enormous strikes when they were the first ones into the placer deposits, particularly CA and AK. We're talking hundreds of ounces in weeks or months. Don't get me wrong - if Waltz worked a lode that produced this ore, then he certainly found a nice site, but from what we've seen, it doesn't seem to me to justify the hysteria that's grown up around this particular legend. Trouble is, today we have very, very few enthusiasts that have every been inside a working hardrock mine, let alone been exposed to the ore that comes out of the good ones. Like so many other things in life, the idea of the LDM may have dwarfed the LDM itself.

I realize the aficiandos poo-poo the idea, but IMO the entire legend is a smoke screen designed to camoflage a very large cache in the same neighborhood - a smoke screen that effectively has sent hundreds of searchers on a snipe hunt that has yet to produce a snipe. Hopefully, time will yield the truth.

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

You asked for photos and I provided them. You have also asked for copies of documents showing the Peralta's were in Arizona and involved in mining. I will also provide them. If you are unwilling to accept the evidence you ask for, what's the point?

I am not fabricating this evidence. It's the real thing, so let's quit wasting my time and efforts. I will still provide the documents you have said don't exist, but that will be the end of it.

Next subject.......

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Yes my friend, of course I asked for them, and yes you provided me with that which you were able to provide, and for this I am eternally grateful, however I was wondering if perhaps you may have been privy to some newer information, which of course would not pinpoint the location of the alledged mine, rather some updated or previously undiscovered facts in the matter. As always, ALL of your efforts are appreciated and accepted with gratitude and appreciation, my friend. Once again, thank you for providing us with those photos.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

The ore for the ring was a gift. I happen to know that the likely giver is.......close with his money. That's a nice piece and appropriate for the ring.

Going back to the story that Julia told Bark, the gold that Waltz had taken from the mine was obtained in one season, working with his partner. The gold could be removed from the hanging wall with a miner's pick.
The stories of the years of returning to work the mine, by Waltz, are from the Brownie Holmes Manuscript, which Brownie denied writing until his dying day. My source for that information is Tom Kollenborn.

It is provable fact that much of what is in that manuscrip is fiction.

The people who cleaned out what remained in that mine worked it for three summer months in three successive years in the late 90's.

I have it on good authority, from someone who was close to the folks who did that work, that the ore I have posted pictures of came from that pit mine. More specifically, it had to come from the three caches below the mine sometime in 1985 or earlier.

1985 was when my source was taken on horseback to the site and shown the empty caches and the pit mine. He is the one who took the original pictures of the ore. I have no doubt of the truthfulness of that story, as there is one other person who was on that ride and he has corroborated the story.

At this point in time, there is little doubt that the mine is the LDM, for me, as well as many other's. That conclusion will never be accepted by many, if not most, Dutch Hunters. I'm good with that, but believe I know the facts.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

"I was wondering if perhaps you may have been privy to some newer information, which of course would not pinpoint the location of the alledged mine, rather some updated or previously undiscovered facts in the matter."

It is well known exactly where this pit mine is located. It is being called the Silver Chief by people that don't want the LDM found. Documents for the Silver Chief Mine show it's location to be 3 miles up Roger's Canyon from Roger's Trough. That would be northwest of Roger's Trough. The pit mine is around 1 1/2 mile west of Roger's Trough. It is located near the top of a north/south trending ravine that is heavily overgrown with brush/catclaw.

Waltz's drawing of Weaver's Needle, seen through a saddle, is visible from just above the pit mine. Many other popular clues surround the site. The pit mine itself, matches the description that Waltz is said to have given Julia and Rhiney.

I can provide the exact GPS Coordinates if requested.

Been awhile since I have looked at this information, so I have corrected the distance to the two mines.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

The ore for the ring was a gift. I happen to know that the likely giver is.......close with his money. That's a nice piece and appropriate for the ring.

Going back to the story that Julia told Bark, the gold that Waltz had taken from the mine was obtained in one season, working with his partner. The gold could be removed from the hanging wall with a miner's pick.
The stories of the years of returning to work the mine, by Waltz, are from the Brownie Holmes Manuscript, which Brownie denied writing until his dying day. My source for that information is Tom Kollenborn.

It is provable fact that much of what is in that manuscrip is fiction.

The people who cleaned out what remained in that mine worked it for three summer months in three successive years in the late 90's.

I have it on good authority, from someone who was close to the folks who did that work, that the ore I have posted pictures of came from that pit mine. More specifically, it had to come from the three caches below the mine sometime in 1985 or earlier.

1985 was when my source was taken on horseback to the site and shown the empty caches and the pit mine. He is the one who took the original pictures of the ore. I have no doubt of the truthfulness of that story, as there is one other person who was on that ride and he has corroborated the story.

At this point in time, there is little doubt that the mine is the LDM, for me, as well as many other's. That conclusion will never be accepted by many, if not most, Dutch Hunters. I'm good with that, but believe I know the facts.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

That is very interesting indeed - thanks. Apparently, those who exploited this site were smart enough to keep their mouths shut for the most part, although they must have have a trusting relationship with your friends and of course, your friends with you in order for the secret to be passed on. You're probably right about the LDM community not acknowleging the discovery as authentic. It's human nature for people to cling to their beliefs not matter what the cost.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

Of course, you will also need to produce a paper and submit it to them, at which point they will cheerfully tack it to the closest bulletin board and throw darts at it. They absolutely LOVE to punch holes in anything related to research. It's simply what THEY do and they are very good at it, so you need to be prepared for some very close critquing of your work, my friend. They will pore over every period and comma and cheerfully point out each and every mistake. And not only will they do this, they will also expect you to make all the corrections and then re-submit it at which time it goes back up on the bulletin board for round 2.

If I were not researching for something to be published, but for private research material only, why would they desire to see a paper produced? This is a bit puzzling, but I am sure they have their own reasons? You mention also, 'a close scrutiny and critiquing' of my "work" - even if there IS no "work" being produced, only notes for my own use? That doesn't make sense to me. Are they also publishers of original research, specifically historical research? The reactions you describe sound very like editors for publishing firms.

Lamar have you concluded that I (personally) am working on some kind of book or article on the Lost Dutchman mine to be published? I have considered it, but as there are already NUMEROUS books, articles even at least one movie already done, there seems to be little I could add. <Other than some private information which will never see publication and I may destroy before I die, in order to keep my word..> Besides, many already are convinced that the mine never existed in the first place, or that it has been (recently) rediscovered and quietly worked out to the point of exhausting the ore body. Either of these conclusions would have a powerful negative impact on the tourism industry surrounding the Superstition mountains of course, which may indicate why certain groups have a vested interest in keeping the Lost Dutchman LOST.

As an aside here, anyone know how many books have been written on the Lost Dutchman mine? We have a small collection with widely differing clues and conclusions, and several needed to add (Glover's for example) just curious how many there are, if a person were going to try to collect them all. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco