How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[Ellie Baba]

Lamar wrote,
One man, working alone in hardrock country would be VERY hard pressed to scratch out enough color from the rocks to pay for his beans and flour and yet I am supposed to believe that Jacob Waltz was quietly amassing a fortune? If you are doubtful, accquire the same tools which were available in the late 1800s, namely hammer and drill, and walk up to any rock face you happen to find. Once you sized up the face, start drilling and keep track of how much host rock you are able to dislodge AND process in one week.

Now, after you've dropped from exhaustion, you'll probably conclude that Mr. Waltz either had some serious help or someone was lying. In order to be able to mine gold of the magnitude that Jacob was supposedly extracting would take a lode of huge proportions and I really do not think that a lode that size could have remained undetected for this long, as all gold formations tend to shed deposits at a constant, albeit very slow, rate. if there were a lode of that stature in the Superstitions then a significant amount of alluvial gold would have been detected and helped to locate the source of the formation. Thus far, this has not happened.

My Bud Lamar,

Attached are a couple of photos of our crew working one of many shafts of an old historic KGC mine. Your description above does in fact relate to our circumstances. If our final results hold true we should expect 2 to 4 opt. Au., 4.5 opt. Ag., trace Pt, Pd, Rh. So, let's say we have 16 hrs. actual labor, two hrs. set up and drive time = 18 hrs. Plus two days to process about 20 hrs to include driving and about 4 hrs for refining ($50.00 per ounce Au.) Thirty-eight hours times three (3) add I more helper for processing. Average labor @ $20.00 per hour =$2,600.00 total labor. Cost to process at BCC Plant per ton; $250.00, and cost to transport ore from mine site to plant around $100.00. Total (roughly estimated) $2,950.00 plus $50.00 per ounce Au. refining cost. Our cutoff grade for this situation would be 3.2 opt Au. If we recover 3.2 opt Au. we would break even. Wages would be made and that is it. The high grade veins have tested at 4.0 opt Au. up to 8.0 opt Au. and higher in the sugary quartz. PLEASE NOTE: This scenario is comparable to a 49’r miner working with a partner and using an arastra all day long. Commercial modern day operation for the above mine would be highly profitable. Cutoff grade would be close to 1.0 opt Au.

There is a lode of that stature here in Arizona, although I am not working it alone. My Partner (yes, she's a girl) and our Geologist operates the jack hammer. Exploration is what we do for a living. It took four, 4 hr. days to remove 1,600 lbs. of ore from the shaft (this took place during the hot summer month of Aug.). Three to four hundred lbs. of country rock still remain in the bottom of said shaft. All that we had for mechanical equipment was an electric jack hammer. There were times we had to use a regular star drill with an 8 lb. hammer. All of the ore was hand hoisted from the shaft. The ore was taken to Black Canyon City, AZ. To be processed. First it was crushed, milled and ran on a heavy (Wilfrey) concentration table. The firsts, seconds and thirds were then run again on a fines table to aid in the concentration process. The red hematite mud that ran off of the Wilfrey was captured in a poop tube to be run in a proprietary leach to remove microscopic and submicroscopic gold ore.

Mining is a bitch and that is why I stick to exploration.

Have a great week Lamar,

EB

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Mining is hard labor - no doubt, but if you enjoy it, then its not really work.

We've done our share - it depends on what kind you are mining, how rich it is, what the host/country rock is, what equipment you have, whether it is lode or placer and how much you want to do.

We have, at times, spent a two or three week period of mining before final cleaning, and even though I could hardly life my arms - the clean-up was worth it all.

Plus, the truth is, there were a lot more tough people back in the old days - they had to be. They didn't usually sit down to jobs all week and then go out and mine - they worked every day of their lives at their chosen professions. You cannot compare them.

Exploration is really fun, too - but still hard labor if you do it right - but- there is something special about finding a spot that no one has mined before.

I have found myself, many times, saying (usually out loud) - I cannot believe that this is what I choose to do for FUN"

B

 

[Ellie Baba]

Lamar also wrote,
Dear Ellie Baba,
I've never spent so much as 5 minutes searching for the LDM, my friend. In truth, parallel research into the early colonization of the Americas has sent me to the same places as most LDM writers have visited, but my interest in the LDM is purely in the form of entertainment. I rather enjoy the irony of so many otherwise logical, responsible men and women searching high and low for something which they will not find, and the reason why they will not find it is because I firmly believe that it never existed in the first place.

I agree with you Lamar; the mine never existed but the Dutchman, Jacob Waltz did. He is tied to the Stone Maps along with the Architects. Everyone was trying to follow him to his mine, but he wasn't going to a mine, he was checking out the status of the depositories located in his assigned area which included all the territory within the 33rd degree longitude (111 degrees today) and 33rd degree latitude represented by the Arizona Florence Quadrangle; 1900 Florence, ARIZ. Scale 1:125000.
I knew you would state your beliefs concerning this subject. Now I need you to understand the truth. We will get there one of these days.

Gracias mi Amigo,

EB

Thank you Mrs. O for your comment as mining is gratifying if you can turn a profit.

EB

 

[gollum]

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[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

"One man, working alone in hardrock country would be VERY hard pressed to scratch out enough color from the rocks to pay for his beans and flour and yet I am supposed to believe that Jacob Waltz was quietly amassing a fortune?"

I am unsure who is trying to convince you that "Jacob Waltz was quietly amassing a fortune", but that never happened. Any fortune he may have had, was left in the Superstitions. Waltz was a simple man living a farmer's life. No bank account, no fancy house, no signs of a man with a fortune.

Lots of good information on his financial state, but few people pay much attention to those dry facts.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
Lamar wrote

Dear Ellie Baba;
I've never spent so much as 5 minutes searching for the LDM, my friend. In truth, parallel research into the early colonization of the Americas has sent me to the same places as most LDM writers have visited, but my interest in the LDM is purely in the form of entertainment. I rather enjoy the irony of so many otherwise logical, responsible men and women searching high and low for something which they will not find, and the reason why they will not find it is because I firmly believe that it never existed in the first place.

I know your response was directed to our mutual friend Ellie Baba, but your statements are very interesting. Your interest in this subject is most curious amigo. Is that you feel that folks who search for something you believe never existed are deluding themselves? Is it some kind of ego trip, in order to feel superior to those poor self-deluded Dutch-hunters with greater logic and education in history? I respectfully disagree with you that "it never existed" based on several grounds, which will never change your mind so I won't bother go back over the evidence, but this type of interest as you expressed is a curiosity in itself. Do you see it as harmful for a person to go in search of something you don't believe exists? Thank you in advance.

Lamar also wrote

One man, working alone in hardrock country would be VERY hard pressed to scratch out enough color from the rocks to pay for his beans and flour and yet I am supposed to believe that Jacob Waltz was quietly amassing a fortune? If you are doubtful, accquire the same tools which were available in the late 1800s, namely hammer and drill, and walk up to any rock face you happen to find. Once you sized up the face, start drilling and keep track of how much host rock you are able to dislodge AND process in one week.

Now, after you've dropped from exhaustion, you'll probably conclude that Mr. Waltz either had some serious help or someone was lying. In order to be able to mine gold of the magnitude that Jacob was supposedly extracting would take a lode of huge proportions and I really do not think that a lode that size could have remained undetected for this long, as all gold formations tend to shed deposits at a constant, albeit very slow, rate. if there were a lode of that stature in the Superstitions then a significant amount of alluvial gold would have been detected and helped to locate the source of the formation. Thus far, this has not happened.

Basically, what people are believing in is the words of a single person, that being Jacob Waltz and he may, or may not, have said those words. No one knows for sure, my friend. We only know what people TELL us and nothing more than this. In other words, it's strictly a "he said, she said" proposition, my friend, with virtually no written documentation to support the claims or theories.

Granted, hypothesizing about the LDM is thought provoking and fun, however I tend to keep my emotions in check in regards to anything connected to the LDM. I do not belittle anyone who searches for the LDM however, everyone should be aware that the odds of finding it are very slim indeed. In all honesty, if I were to go into the Supes, I'd do so with one of my Minelab PI detectors. In this way I would know that if a gold nugget were in the vicinity I would stand a very good chance of recovering it.

Your example of pounding away at a low-grade ore deposit may well be accurate for many such gold veins, but rich veins are worked profitably enough even with hand tools, and have been worked historically. I would suggest reading a few examples of rich gold veins and how they were first mined, but you probably already know this. One part of your statement I must respectfully disagree with, in part, being this portion, quote

<Lamar also wrote>

I really do not think that a lode that size could have remained undetected for this long, as all gold formations tend to shed deposits at a constant, albeit very slow, rate. if there were a lode of that stature in the Superstitions then a significant amount of alluvial gold would have been detected and helped to locate the source of the formation. Thus far, this has not happened.

Being a student of geology, I have learned that in the case of many gold placers, the original lode which created them has never been located, then too, a fair number of quite good placers have formed from lode deposits which would not be worth mining as lode mines due to the nature of the deposits - tiny stringers of gold veinlets scattered amongst large amounts of country (waste) rock. Many lode gold deposits have no appreciable placer associated with them. As you have noted, rocks degenerate at very different rates depending on their makeup and the environment; prospectors hunting for lode gold deposits by panning for the "float" gold which has weathered out of the rock have to be extremely careful to hunt for tiny colors, often having to "post hole" their way up hillsides and finding VERY little gold to trace the vein back to its source. I am convinced this is exactly how Waltz found his mine, by using the portable drywasher to help concentrate his samples before panning them (water being a scarce commodity in the Superstitions) and help him trace it to the source. This is in fact the version you will find of how Waltz found his mine, buried in private letters and "Pioneer Interviews" done with old-timers living in Florence. No Peraltas, no Jesuits, Templars, or Aztecs a much less dramatic story all told, but still remarkable and interesting.

***Side note here to any "newbies" who might be reading our discussion, but do yourself a favor and learn some basic prospecting techniques and basic geology - if you are hunting a MINE, it is in my opinion more important than any codes, clues or even maps. Contact me by PM for a few suggested books to help you get started.***

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

"I really do not think that a lode that size could have remained undetected for this long, as all gold formations tend to shed deposits at a constant, albeit very slow, rate. if there were a lode of that stature in the Superstitions then a significant amount of alluvial gold would have been detected and helped to locate the source of the formation. Thus far, this has not happened."

I have always said that I don't know $h!T about rocks. Keeping that in mind, please forgive the following question:

Is it your opinion that a rich outcropping could not come to the surface in a deep depression that is located high up on a ridge? If it did, wouldn't that negate any placer below something like this:

Thanks in advance,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Placers can also be undetected - especially if there is no lode left.

B

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
I am not on any sort of *ego trip* my friend, I simply do not believe that the LDM existed. Whether it's mentally harmful for someone to search for the LDM is strictly a case by case study, as some seem to go overboard with their research and in doing so, they tend to toss conventional beliefs, along with conventional wisdom, out the window of logic. In this light, I suppose that searching for the LDM may be bad, however I also feel that it's not my place to judge the mental stability of others.

Overall, getting out of the house and tramping around the hills is never a bad thing and in light of this, I'd say that searching for the LDM is more healthy than sitting around playing Bingo. The physical exercise provides great cardio-vascular exercise and mental stimulus. As long as the LDM is placed and maintained within the context that finding it is a long shot at best, then there is probably little or no harm in searching for it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
I firmly believe that in order to locate a sizeable ore vein a person would have needed to first locate the alluvial deposits of the lode, then with infinite patience and persistence, eventually located the elluvial deposits in order to ascertain where the lode is situated.

And no, I do not believe there exists a vein which has not been subjected to superficial errosion and which has not left an alluvial trail. All things errode with time and gold is no different. Errosion may have alluvial fan may displaced the alluvial fan many miles away from the lode, but with the aforementioned patience and perserverance one can always figure out what caused the alluvial movement and therefore trace the alluvial deposits back to the superficial lode.

Also, we know that when the minerals quartz and iron drop out of suspension, they do so under conditions which are very close to the same conditions in which gold tends to drop out of suspension, therefore we not need to locate the actual gold placers in order to find the lode vein, merely locate iron and certain types of quartz deposits. Once again, this is the indirect method and it tends to work well in situations where the gold placers have been shifted around due to errosion, glacial movement, torrential rains, etc.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

There is a steep ravine that runs northward just to the east of the pit mine in my picture. The mine was worked as recently as 1999 and there is no sign of an "alluvial fan" anywhere around it or below it.
The area has been checked with metal detectors, without any signs of the mine above.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

.... One man, working alone in hardrock country would be VERY hard pressed to scratch out enough color from the rocks to pay for his beans and flour and yet I am supposed to believe that Jacob Waltz was quietly amassing a fortune? ...

When I'd finally had enough of working underground in the Big I at Red Mountain Pass, CO, in 1974, I wasn't ready to quit Ouray yet and continued to live/play there. My neighbor up the street, an old miner in his 70's, asked me if I wanted a job for the rest of the summer helping him on 'his claim'. 'Doing what?', I asked. 'Just pushing a drift', said he. 'I put in the first fifteen feet with hand steel, but now I've got a Punjar and it's a little heavy for me. I'm paying twenty an hour.' The drift was about four feet wide, five feet high and slightly inclined down. The vertical sulfide vein was only about four inches wide, full height with more showing down below the floor, solid metal with about an inch or so of it picture rock every bit as rich as the well-touted LDM ore - probably 25% native gold in white quartz. The strike originally occurred as a rusty thin stringer peeking to the surface and immediately began to widen when he began working it. All ore was carefully hand-cobbled and back-packed out to the road. It was the old man's 'retirement' - he shot about two feet every other summer and sold the ore to the Red Chinese agent who made the rounds in Montrose in those days. He was about 60 years old when he started the operation with hand tools, all tools and supplies carried in on his back. A one-man show until the summer I helped him.

The point is, Lamar, you're dead wrong about the possibility of a lone propspector doing well on his own. Most jackass prospectors who made money did it the 'easy' way - with placer deposits, but many rich lodes were worked back in the day - most played out quickly or were stolen by the corporations. The odds of finding a paying hardrock claim are astronomically small of course, but it can and did happen for the fortunate.

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Trust me, the placers are, or rather WERE there, my friend. Gold tends to break down into steadily smaller particles as time progresses, and the smaller the particles become, the easier it becomes for them to travel, and they do travel. The associated placers may be as far away from your lode workings by tens, or even hundreds of miles, but trust me, they are somewhere, unless someone has already recovered them. Gold does not just *pop up* out of the ground without any associated errosion attached to the process. If this were true then the gold would never surface and would remain forever deep within the bowels the Earth.

A textbook example of lode *shedding* may be witnessed by the Tipuani formation situated in the foothills of the Andes mountains in Bolivia. With an almost constant runoff from the Andes, the rivers of Bolivia and Brazil are fed gold deposits at an almost constant rate of flow. Gold placers have been successfully recovered as far away as 800 miles from the formation, but the placers ARE from the Tipuani. Of course, the closer one gets to the formation, the larger the gold tends to be and also the gold tends to have more definition than the nuggets located further downstream in the flow.

And there exists a multitude of reasons why there are no placers deposits in the vicinity of the operation in the photo, my friend. Maybe the ravine was cut by errosion somewhat recently and therefore no placers would be located in it, or perhaps the same errosive process which carved out the ravine shifted the placers along with the soil. And so on, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Springfield;
No, my friend, I am not wrong. I live in a country where there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of one and two man mining operations and I've yet to see anyone driving around in a brand-new Toyota pickup truck because of those mines. I am not stating that a one-man operation is not possible, merely that one or two men cannot cut and process the material quickly or effectively enough to get wealthy.

And of course, my question is, what happened to the mine with the 25% native gold in the quartz? Did it eventually play out? My guess is that he may have been working a pinch and after it was relieved the mine was perhaps no longer was worth the effort, however it would still be worth the time and trouble to go back to the site and see if anyone is currently working it or if it's been claimed. I would not however, forget about any workings with a 25% native gold content, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

... he wasn't going to a mine, he was checking out the status of the depositories located in his assigned area which included all the territory within the 33rd degree longitude (111 degrees today) and 33rd degree latitude represented by the Arizona Florence Quadrangle; 1900 Florence, ARIZ. Scale 1:125000.
I knew you would state your beliefs concerning this subject. Now I need you to understand the truth. We will get there one of these days.....

The 33rd degree of latitude is particularly interesting re 'hidden treasure' legends, not to mention the USGS quads themselves and particularly the township grids in Arizona (G&SRM) and New Mexico (NMPM). When the major clues and landmarks begin falling on quarter points, Section Lines and particularly on Township Lines, one has to scratch his noggin and say, "Hmmmm".

 

[Springfield]

lamar wrote:
Dear Springfield;
No, my friend, I am not wrong. I live in a country where there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of one and two man mining operations and I've yet to see anyone driving around in a brand-new Toyota pickup truck because of those mines. I am not stating that a one-man operation is not possible, merely that one or two men cannot cut and process the material quickly or effectively enough to get wealthy.

Yes, they can - I saw it and participated in a successful example of same. You may wish to re-read my above post. As I recall (and it WAS 35 years ago), about 100 ounces were recovered the summer I was helping, not counting the best of the jewelry rock that I was given about 1/4 of a Skippy peanut butter jar of as a souvenir. Even though the price of gold was set at $35/oz then, the Chinese were paying 45 as I recall. In today's dollars, this was about $100,000 for a month's efforts. Maybe not wealthy enough for you, but not bad in my book.

And of course, my question is, what happened to the mine with the 25% native gold in the quartz? Did it eventually play out? My guess is that he may have been working a pinch and after it was relieved the mine was perhaps no longer was worth the effort, however it would still be worth the time and trouble to go back to the site and see if anyone is currently working it or if it's been claimed. I would not however, forget about any workings with a 25% native gold content, my friend.

The claim was sold about 1976 as the old man's health was failing. I know there was plenty of good ore showing the last day I was in the hole.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Just because you don't see someone driving around in a brand new Toyota truck, doesn't mean he doesn't have money.

I, personally know many folks who lived like paupers, and when they died, had millions of dollars in their estates, and I bet almost everyone has heard of at least one or two people in their lifetime that is exactly the same.

One of the richest people in our area of Pennsylvania never had a new car, lived in an old trailer and bought and sold junk when he felt like it.
He was a little weird, I must admit, because, if you went to buy something from him, you never knew what he would charge. One day, a part would cost you 200 bucks, if you came a day or two later, 25 bucks would do the trick - and sometimes, he would just give it to you for free.
If you didn't personally know his wife, you would think she was a man by the way she dressed, and most of his clothes (and hers) were made of patches, rather than original material. She would tediously patch every single little tear. You could not walk into the house without turning sideways, for the bags and bags of garbage and newspapers and other things. When he died, she "splurged" and bought a second-hand double wide trailer. When she passed away, besides several bank accounts, they had thousands of shares in expensive stock, and real garbage bags of money. They had millions. (no children - they had a son who had already passed away). It was all passed to charity except for about 100 grand that they left to the lady who helped them out over the years.

Personally, I think the best way to get robbed of your wealth is to show it off to others.

So, again, just because YOU can't see it, does not mean it isn't there.

B

 

[Furness]

That's true Mrs O

that's why the favorite pastime in Latin America is robbing catholic churches,

oops !!!

sorry

furness

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Furness,



And, how, may I ask, would you know the favorite pastime in Latin America

B

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi Group,

Attached is a photograph of the Superstitions taken while standing on the Black Queen Mining Claims which is northwest of the Super range and the Mammoth Mine. Julia Thomas, Herman Petrasch and his brother Rhinehart were within feet of the area where I took this picture. They walked right over the area where the Black Queen and the Mammoth Mine discoveries were to take place within the next few months to a year. What a historical moment to experience the sights and sounds along with the heat (summer of 1892).

EB