How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
I think you took my statement out of context, my friend. I was not implying that you are writing a book and to be truthful I never even thought that you were writing a book. What I was trying to do was to explain to you what has worked for me in the past in order to get into the archives. I have written several papers on matters related to the jesuits in the New World and without exception the Jesuit historians riddled them full of holes, after which time I did futher research, re-submitted the revised papers, they got riddled full of holes, made another trip back to the archives, got written permission to visit more archives, got written permission from that archive to visit another archive, etc, ad nauseum.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

How to Research for Treasure Hunting and Metal Detecting From Lead Generation to Vetting - Grab it through Amazon!

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Dear Lamar,

"I was wondering if perhaps you may have been privy to some newer information, which of course would not pinpoint the location of the alledged mine, rather some updated or previously undiscovered facts in the matter."

It is well known exactly where this pit mine is located. It is being called the Silver Chief by people that don't want the LDM found. Documents for the Silver Chief Mine show it's location to be 3 miles up Roger's Canyon from Roger's Trough. That would be northwest of Roger's Trough. The pit mine is around 1 1/2 mile west of Roger's Trough. It is located near the top of a north/south trending ravine that is heavily overgrown with brush/catclaw.

Waltz's drawing of Weaver's Needle, seen through a saddle, is visible from just above the pit mine. Many other popular clues surround the site. The pit mine itself, matches the description that Waltz is said to have given Julia and Rhiney.

I can provide the exact GPS Coordinates if requested.

Been awhile since I have looked at this information, so I have corrected the distance to the two mines.

Greetings Joe,
I am aware that your reply was directed to our amigo Lamar, but am still not sure why you have concluded that this particular pit mine must be the Lost Dutchman. Concerning the Silver Chief, here is an extract

The Silver Chief is another mine of this company It has a shaft of 40 feet another of 70 feet and a tunnel connecting below of 230 feet The ore is splendid the assay value is said to be from $60 to $1,300 per ton It is generally a carbonate and there is also galena A drift 18 feet long which from the bottom of the shaft shows 2 feet of very rich metal is in white quartz The Silver Chief looks better now than it has done before

<From the Report of the Director of the Mint on the production of the precious metals, describing the mining properties of the Rogers District, pp 92, by United States. Bureau of the Mint 1884>

The Silver Chief is but one mine of the Rogers District, there were at least 16 others located in the same district with varying degrees of work and varying ores but most similar to the Chief. I am not saying that pit mine ISN'T the Lost Dutchman, but curious as to why you have excluded the other 16 possible mines it could have been. Thank you in advance.

One other point on this and I will not pester you with hundreds more questions, but considering that the Silver Chief and the other mines of the Rogers district were fairly well known in 1884, and Waltz was still alive at that time, wouldn't it seem likely that he would know that others had found and were developing his mine? Why would he tell his friends to go to the mine, if mining companies were already working it?

Lamar, thank you for clarifying - so if a person were simply trying to learn the history, perhaps not even taking any notes for cross-comparisons, the Jesuits would not necessarily "demand" that some kind of paper be produced. I have found that most history books leave out a great deal of information and detail, which are interesting and enlightening to a person who simply has a love for history.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

First of all, I don't believe this pit mine is the Silver Chief.

Location of the pit mine, and the Silver Chief.......approximate.

The pit mine was covered. All of the other mines were still open and have been examined one by one. I don't beliieve Waltz ever worked the mine again after Weisner was killed. That is what he told Julia, and what she passed along to Bark and Ely.

All of the other stories came from Brownie Holmes..........maybe.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Pete,

"Just a tid bit of information you may find interesting. The Lost Dutchman gold vein was rediscovered in the early 1950's by a mining company and worked out. The original entrance was rediscovered a short distance away from the vein in 1954. Hope this helps people out. I have never had a desire to search for this mine. There's a lot of other gold to look for and in some much more hospitable places.

Pete"
____________________________________

That's quite a large "tid bit".

Can you tell us the name of the mining company and where the mine is located?

Many thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

Just a tid bit of information you may find interesting. The Lost Dutchman gold vein was rediscovered in the early 1950's by a mining company and worked out. The original entrance was rediscovered a short distance away from the vein in 1954. Hope this helps people out. I have never had a desire to search for this mine. There's a lot of other gold to look for and in some much more hospitable places.

Pete

North of CAVE CREEK ? I know of a sealed pit mine that was disovered there.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
Thank you Joe for the interesting reply! Cactusjumper wrote

First of all, I don't believe this pit mine is the Silver Chief.

I didn't mean to imply that you were saying it is or was the Silver Chief, what I was asking was how you excluded the other 16 known mines in the Rogers district? As you have answered this at least in part, when you wrote

The pit mine was covered. All of the other mines were still open and have been examined one by one. I don't beliieve Waltz ever worked the mine again after Weisner was killed. That is what he told Julia, and what she passed along to Bark and Ely.

I take it to mean that you know the locations of all of the other mines, several of which had more than one shaft or tunnel, and that allowed the finders to rule them out? I am leaping to a conclusion based on your statement, if I have it wrong I would appreciate correction.

Cactusjumper also wrote

All of the other stories came from Brownie Holmes..........maybe.

All of the other stories? Including the pioneer interviews, which have a quite different version of the whole story? I respectfully disagree on this point, and am not so sure that Waltz never returned to the mine after the death of Weisner. For instance, a member of the Caveness family who had the small dairy (which sold butter to Silver King if memory serves, but her name escapes me) remembered Waltz coming past the farm after they had gotten established. (They built their house in 1877, and Weisner was supposedly killed in the late 1860's, post Civil War.) Jim Bark's notes say that Waltz made only one visit to the mine after Weisner was killed, and it was 14 years after the incident, but mentioned that everything was just as he had left it. What about Holmes own report of having trailed Waltz once, are we now dating this incident to before Weisner was killed? If so, wouldn't Waltz have been with his partner?

I would think that Waltz would surely be aware of the mining and prospecting activities going on in the Rogers district in the early 1880s even if he did not witness it in person, as such things were very much talked about in the pre-radio days. I am guessing at this of course, it is possible that the miners and prospectors were working there and he was totally unaware of anything going on. News did not travel quite as fast then. Perhaps he knew but felt there was no danger of anyone finding his mine? Who can say with absolute certainty today?

You have a very interesting theory Joe, I hope you will consider publishing it some time.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

It's pretty well established that Waltz left Prescott for the Salt River Valley in around 1867. Assuming that he was partnered up with Jacob Wiesner at that time, we can assume that Wiesner was killed around 1867- '68. Taking the later year and adding 14 years, you end up with 1882.

I would guess that there is some confusion when it comes to the history of Matthew Cavanaugh and.......Matthew Cavaness. Local historians have given both men credit for building the "Board House" which later came to be known as the Quarter Circle-U Ranch. I believe it was Cavaness who built the house. His wife's name was Alice.

The reason I mention the "confusion", is because I believe many of the "pioneers" were also confused, especially when it came to stories of Jacob Waltz and his mine. The "Hell I Was There" syndrome has always been alive and well in Arizona. As I have made my way through the history of the LDM, I found that many of the stories and legends have been thrown in a bag, shaken well and came out......confused.

In 1882, there were 25 mines/claims in the Roger's Camp area.

"For instance, a member of the Caveness family who had the small dairy (which sold butter to Silver King if memory serves, but her name escapes me) remembered Waltz coming past the farm after they had gotten established. (They built their house in 1877, and Weisner was supposedly killed in the late 1860's, post Civil War.)"

That story came from.........Brownie Holmes. The Caveness Ranch was no "small dairy". It was a well stocked cattle ranch with around 1,000 head of cattle. Matt and Alice seperated in June of 1880 and divorced in October of 1881. She got the ranch and cattle. She remarried in 1881 and, as short time later, sold the ranch. This puts us right back in 1882.

Dates are what keep getting mixed up, along with the stories.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Pete,

Many thanks for your reply.

Something that happens with regularity in treasure hunting circles, and on cites like this, is that people pass on stories which they believe they have seen the documentation for, when in actuality, it was something they read or heard from someone. As the years pass, those books and words become "fact" in their minds.

There is no documentation tying Jacob Waltz to the Peralta mining family. It seems more than likely that they did know each other, but no real documents making that historical connection.

I find myself, more and more, in the same place that you are. That being, unable to remember the details of things that I believe are factual history. For that reason, I keep as many books as possible close at hand. While they are not always backed up by available documentation, often/sometimes they are.

The "location description" that you write about, can be found in dozens of places in the Superstitions. Beyond that, those same matching locations can be found in hundreds of places in the Southwest. Nature has a way of repeating her work in a variety of places.

Having said that, it may be that you are correct about this particular documentation, and I have just forgotten about it.

Thanks again.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Hate to interject, but didn't that story come from Jim Bark, not Holmes?

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

You are.....somewhat correct.

Bark does mention Mrs. Cavaness running a dairy from the ranch and selling butter and milk at the Silver King. That being said, he does not mention Waltz ever stopping at the ranch. That part of the story came from Brownie Holmes. That small addition to the history of the LDM does tend to muddy the waters somewhat. Something that continues to this day.

I believe the timeline I have presented is probably, fairly, close.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Pete,

I am only interested in the truth, or as close as we can get to it....118+ years after the fact. All of the accounts you have read are subject to minor deception, poor memories and outright lies. You can throw preconceived perceptions, bias' and faulty sources into that mix.

There are a few authors who did their best to weed out those problematic factors and present their stories in an honest and truthful manner. Where they had factual evidence, they labeled it as such. Where they could find no evidence for the stories they included in their books, they made note of that fact.

As I have mentioned many times, I have never searched for the LDM.......on my own. I have been part of various other Dutch Hunter's efforts to locate the mine, or prove their own claims. In the process, I have studied the LDM history and legends to a fault. In that vein, pardon the pun, I have found that there is much that I have missed over the years, and some things that I have found on my own.

If there was a ranking for Dutch Hunter knowledge, I believe I am probably somewhere in the middle. That has never stopped me from voicing/writing my opinion. It's scary to think of the things I have forgotten about this legend. On occasion, my betters remind me of this malady.

You have offered your own, unsubstantiated, story into the possibility that the LDM has been found and worked out. My own story comes with pictures, dates and facts.......most not publicly known until I posted them. My theory is now published in two books by well known Dutch Hunters. Most of the credit for that theory goes to the friend who provided the initial story and pictures to me. Since that time, I have made additional contacts which have corroborated the theory and added previously unknown facts.

Both of us have chipped away at the cottage industry that is the Lost Dutchman Mine. Most Dutch Hunters will never believe either of us.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Both of us have chipped away at the cottage industry that is the Lost Dutchman Mine. Most Dutch Hunters will never believe either of us.

Hmm, then you need to "get busy" and get the word out. I disagree (respectfully) with our mutual friend Pete here, in that if the Lost Dutchman is in fact FOUND then it is important to get the word out so that folks will NOT waste more time, money, and energy looking for something that is no longer lost. How many people have died in the Superstitions after all? To let them keep on risking life and limb for something that is found and worked out is, IMHO something less than "friendly".

Of course it is pretty country, practically a large-ish "city park" as it becomes surrounded by developments and suburban sprawl, but it is still not the safest country and treasure hunters can be somewhat careless about safety.

Whether that WAS the Lost Dutchman or another rich mine sure wouldn't matter to me if I found it, rich ore has a way of "paying off" well and could set a fellow up financially. As the vein played out relatively quickly I would think it to be more likely an epithermal deposit than a hypo-type, but IF the ore were to prove to be a match, the question would be solved absolutely (to me). And as Joe has pointed out it is extremely unlikely that any of that ore will ever be tested and compared by a geologist, they have left the door "open" for the hopeful Lost Dutchman hunters that it MIGHT be another mine. The tourist industry can then continue to make profits and the unlucky can "die suddenly" for years to come in the Superstition Mountains, and after all isn't that what everyone wants, for the money to keep flowing in for the tourist industry?

If I were as convinced as you are Joe, I would sure try to discourage as many treasure hunters and tourists as possible from looking, though that would not make a guy popular with certain organizations I suppose. I am convinced that the Lost Breyfogle is one and the same with the Amargosa mine (the ore was pronounced identical, plus Breyfogle once visited the Amargosa and quit looking for his lost ledge) so I try to tell anyone hunting it not to waste their time and risk injury or worse. You mentioned that it has been published (twice) but it is clear that the word has not gotten out, at least not enough yet.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Not many folks dying while searching for the LDM anymore. I would say the rewards of searching the Superstitions, far outweigh the risks. Pretty sure my friend, Paul, wold agree.

I have always been sure that the pit mine was the LDM, but I can see where something else altogether might have taken place there. It's possible that no ore whatsoever was left in that pit mine, and it was used to hide another treasure. Stack it in the mine, cover it over, and wait for events to develop that would allow you to move it out of the mountains undetected.

I believe it's the LDM, but there are other possibilities.

Bob Corbin mentioned that the statute of limitations has run out on the mining that was done there. (7-years) Other than having the tax people looking up there.......business, I believe they are in the clear. That may be why others are beginning to talk/write about the mine.

I don't believe exploring the Superstitions is much more dangerous than any other desert range. You can get into trouble anywhere. These days, with GPS and Topo's, you have cut down on one of the major problems.......getting lost.

I have posted most of what I know , but expect to learn more. Don't believe I owe anyone more than that. Most Dutch Hunters know who, what and when. Only a few know, for sure, what was taken out of that pit mine. I am not one of those. Knowing what took place in 1985 has, pretty much, confirmed the LDM part of this story for me. The visual evidence is fairly convincing, but that little ride that took place up to the caches and mine is the clincher.

Since coming on the Internet and posting in these forums, I have been called every name in the book. If folks say I am making any of this up, or just lying about the whole thing.......That's
a step up.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Sorry about my momentary absence, having problems with the internet (or my computer, not sure what the problem is) so I will try to keep this short in case I get bumped off again. Also sorry for griping, but one thing I learned in the service was to keep grousing, or the brass gets the idea we have it too good!

Cactusjumper wrote

Since coming on the Internet and posting in these forums, I have been called every name in the book. If folks say I am making any of this up, or just lying about the whole thing.......That's
a step up.

Gosh I apologize Joe, I don't know what I said or posted that came across as that kind of accusation or name calling! I did not mean to imply that at all. The evidence you have, ought to be plenty to convince all but the die-hards, wishful thinkers and curmudgeonly types who demand impossible evidence before changing their minds.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I should have exempted you from that comment. You are too much of a gentleman to be included in that little rouges gallery. I am not talking about people who have questioned my sources or stories, I am talking about the words......in the lowest forms.

You are my friend, so I welcome your questioning and doubts. I don't take that personally, as I find myself being wrong.......often. I would rather have my friends set me straight, then be called a somofabeach!

I was referring to my story about the pit mine/LDM and the general disbelief. I have a few strikes against me in some quarters.........some well deserved I might add, so I am aware that many will dismiss this story out of hand......a consider the source kind of thing. I don't really worry about it that much, as I also consider the source.

Take care, and get that roof done,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Joe,

I'm going to be extremely honest and admit that we are, and have been, Dutchman Hunters. We have made many, many trips, and have spent several years of research --- and I have found that, while I definitely retain information gathered, sometimes it escapes me the place that the information came from. Though we have many books and papers, and endless notes taken from libraries and such, it has piled so high that I have been forced to do my own "book" (not the for sale type), to list certain claims and information, and cross references of sources. It is not difficult (especially as we get older), to have a statement correct, without remembering who said what and why, and what proof comes from who and when. Not to mention our own personal notes taken from cross-referencing things, and notebooks that I have taken from every single one of our trips. (I have 20+ notebooks on places, trails, finds of our own, etc.,).

It can get exhausting, and, it is sometimes difficult to get it all exact when re-telling, without dragging out a 20+ year library. I don't think that this fact should necessarily cloud what is said - just because it may have come from 1-30 sources, and the brain cannot pick out, in the moment of posting, exactly which source you are speaking from. Just my opinion.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

That does sound like an impressive amount of research. When you come to visit, bring your "book".
I would love to rummage through it. I am much less organized than that.

I don't disagree with a single word you wrote. That being said, we should still question sources at every turn in the trail.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Joe, (and Hola Amigos to everyone)

Cactusjumper wrote

I have a few strikes against me in some quarters.........some well deserved I might add, so I am aware that many will dismiss this story out of hand......a consider the source kind of thing. I don't really worry about it that much, as I also consider the source.

Whew - and thank you for the kind words buddy, I thought I had typed out a post that just came across WAY different than I intended it! I don't need to be alienating friends, and have plenty of enemies already. Sometimes I post it without re-reading what I just wrote, and things can slip by that were not really what I wanted to say. As for having a few strikes - well who doesn't have at least a few? (I think my nine innings worth have gone into extra innings by now) and I am sure that some of the black marks I have came from losing my temper,.which is nearly always a mistake when trying to talk with friends.

Just another "thought" here but I would bet that a body could make a small business out of taking tourists in to see the Lost Dutchman mine, which would keep the tourist-biz folks happy and make for an interesting trip for the tourists. Kind of a "show and tell" hike or trail ride.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Most of what you posted applies to me........only double.

My friends just verbally slap me a few times, and we leave it behind us. I fear I will get much worse before I get any better.

You, Beth and your pup are welcome in our home anytime.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Muchas gracias Joe - and ditto, you folks are welcome here; now all I have to do is talk you into a trip to see Mt Rushmore!
Roy