How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[Cubfan64]

Beautiful photo!

 

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[Old Dog]

Beautiful photo!

Breathtaking

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
Lamar wrote

Dear Oroblanco;
I am not on any sort of *ego trip* my friend, I simply do not believe that the LDM existed. Whether it's mentally harmful for someone to search for the LDM is strictly a case by case study, as some seem to go overboard with their research and in doing so, they tend to toss conventional beliefs, along with conventional wisdom, out the window of logic. In this light, I suppose that searching for the LDM may be bad, however I also feel that it's not my place to judge the mental stability of others.

Thank you for explaining amigo, and my apologies for the way I worded my questions; I was really curious and not intending to put you on the spot. You are not the only person with that same attraction, and there are folks who would (and do) consider myself to be off my beam to be wanting to HELP treasure hunters I don't even know, to FIND lost treasures when I will not gain any benefit from it. I have also seen it written that "only a complete fool would help someone else find a lost treasure", so in their eyes, I must be a complete fool for I have and will try to help, when I find time. I think the research is interesting and would love to see someone find those treasures, even if it is not me. I get almost as big a kick out of it when someone does get lucky, as if I found it myself.

Lamar also wrote

Dear group;
I firmly believe that in order to locate a sizeable ore vein a person would have needed to first locate the alluvial deposits of the lode, then with infinite patience and persistence, eventually located the elluvial deposits in order to ascertain where the lode is situated.

I really must talk you into coming out with me, prospecting for gold and silver sometime amigo, for a good many LODE gold prospectors do not look for any kind of alluvial or elluvial deposit, but scamper up and down the mountainsides looking for the veins themselves, outcroppings, discolorations called a "bloom" and so forth, not even packing along a gold pan but a pick-hammer and a bunch of sample bags. The samples are collected and numbered (and marked on a map, very important step) then brought back to camp or cabin or home to crush and pan - you probably know the large mining companies often just send the samples in for assay, and I have done this myself. Searching for a lode gold deposit is a very ancient method but is only one of those in use today, and for at least 200 years. If you doubt what I am telling you, please feel free to read a few prospecting manuals, such as the Alaskan Prospectors Handbook, or how prospecting was and is done in Death Valley. Perhaps things are done a bit differently from where you live. If you do find the time some day and would care to go siwashing, at worst, we could have some good discussions around the campfire!

Ellie Baba - LOVE that photo!
Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

Dear Lamar,

There is a steep ravine that runs northward just to the east of the pit mine in my picture. The mine was worked as recently as 1999 and there is no sign of an "alluvial fan" anywhere around it or below it.
The area has been checked with metal detectors, without any signs of the mine above.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe:
Sorry that I will miss the gathering this year.It's looking to be a little bit cooler,so bring extra jackets for the ladies.
In your honest opinion,what tune might a detector play over this rock?
Everything in this photo,save the lower right corner,is grey/green quartz with some white quartz inclusions.A lot of iron as well,but I think that was stated previously.

Lamar:
Just when and where you think that it is not.....

AB:
Your photo of the main mountain is now my new desktop background.

Regards:SH

 

[Cubfan64]

Sorry you can't make it this year as well SH. The cooler weather will make for some nice hiking and exploring!

The rock in your photo definitely seems to be worth examining more closely.

 

[cactusjumper]

SH,

Sorry to hear you won't make this years Rendezvous. You will be missed.

Carolyn heard this morning that the temp's in Phoenix will be 89-90 degrees this weekend. The nights have always been cool for the event. Brad was running around without a shirt during the days, the years he attended.

For all who are coming, have a safe trip.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote
Quote

Dear group;
I firmly believe that in order to locate a sizeable ore vein a person would have needed to first locate the alluvial deposits of the lode, then with infinite patience and persistence, eventually located the elluvial deposits in order to ascertain where the lode is situated.

In another thread, I posted a reply that belongs here so cross-posted it, along with Lamar's statement above.

Cactusjumper wrote to our friend Lamar,
Quote

On that note, you are wrong about placers always showing up below a mine. It depends on how the mine breaches the surface, and exactly where and how it is located. I believe the picture I posted shows just such a situation.

In support of this statement, here is an extract, quote
Quote

The epithermal veins <in AZ gold deposits> have formed no placers of economic importance

.<Arizona Lode Gold Mines and Mining, Wilson, Cunningham and Butler, The Arizona Bureau of Mines Bulletin 137, 1934, revised 1967, amended 1974, The University of Arizona, Tucson AZ, pp15>

and
Quote

It is also true that some valuable gold lodes do not yield much or any, placer gold, and this statement may apply to all the lodes in an entire district, such as the Oatman district in Arizona. The absence of placer gold should not, then deter a prospector if other conditions appear not unfavorable and, especially, if gold has been found in the district.

When no placer gold is found in a district, it is necessary to search for a lode or indications of the existence of a lode without the guidance of placer gold particles that have been shed from it.

<Ibid, pp 244>

So Lamar my friend does this help to sway your view, as to lode gold deposits always having placers? There are other sources as well to support our contention that gold lode deposits do NOT always have a placer associated, just as not all placers can be traced to source lodes.

Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed. May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi Group,

I thought about having my Geologist write a quick brief on how to find gold and he told me, "Ellie, you can do it yourself, its not that damn difficult". There are a good number of books and tons of on line information. How to find treasure, now that's quite a different thing; there are a few books out there and quite a bit of info on line, most of them are lacking, and how do I know this? No one seems to be finding any treasure caches or lost mines, hm-mm, hm-mm. Time for another photograph.
These next couple of pics were taken of the BOOT from different directions and altitudes. One of them looks just like the old phallus symbol that is always associated with treasure. Look at each one carefully and you will see why this BOOT has always been known as Priest Rock. Remember the kids are really good at locating some really cool things.

Have a great week.

EB

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

"You've kind of have to be able to look at the reference areas of his book - which, of course, isn't on line.

He is definitely a different kind of study - though, I, personally, have to admit, that, even though he dwells in lots of different areas, from military to ghosts - he has spent a lot of time on research, as you might be able to tell from his resource references, and the fact that he has done much traveling for the things he writes.

There is a reference on sources, and where to find (where he found) the "easily documented" travels of Pablo and Miguel - which, I will definitely have to get for you (as soon as I get my old hard drive (from my dead computer) to give up my items - I miss the mass of information I have collected - I should have put it on disk, but didn't."

Hudnall's book arrived today. There are no sources provided in the book, related to the Peralta's or the LDM chapter. On the other hand, he obviously worked off a number of other author's books.
Robert Blair seems to be the obvious source for this particular chapter.......good choice.

I am unsure why the LDM is included in a book on "The History And The Mystery Of New Mexico", but there it is. There are a number of factual errors in his chapter on the LDM, but the worst is on page 43: "One of the most famous lost treasures in the state of New Mexico is called the Lost Dutchman Mine." It's obvious that he knows the LDM/Superstition Mountains are located in Arizona, so one wonders how this slip got included in the book.

For me, Ken Hudnall would be far down on my list of sources on the history of the LDM. On the other hand, I have a lot of sources.

I have no doubt I will enjoy the rest of his book. My thanks for the link.

Take care, and try to stay toasty.......

Joe

 

[gollum]

Dear cactusjumper;
Trust me, the placers are, or rather WERE there, my friend. Gold tends to break down into steadily smaller particles as time progresses, and the smaller the particles become, the easier it becomes for them to travel, and they do travel. The associated placers may be as far away from your lode workings by tens, or even hundreds of miles, but trust me, they are somewhere, unless someone has already recovered them. Gold does not just *pop up* out of the ground without any associated errosion attached to the process. If this were true then the gold would never surface and would remain forever deep within the bowels the Earth.

A textbook example of lode *shedding* may be witnessed by the Tipuani formation situated in the foothills of the Andes mountains in Bolivia. With an almost constant runoff from the Andes, the rivers of Bolivia and Brazil are fed gold deposits at an almost constant rate of flow. Gold placers have been successfully recovered as far away as 800 miles from the formation, but the placers ARE from the Tipuani. Of course, the closer one gets to the formation, the larger the gold tends to be and also the gold tends to have more definition than the nuggets located further downstream in the flow.

And there exists a multitude of reasons why there are no placers deposits in the vicinity of the operation in the photo, my friend. Maybe the ravine was cut by errosion somewhat recently and therefore no placers would be located in it, or perhaps the same errosive process which carved out the ravine shifted the placers along with the soil. And so on, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

While you may have some knowledge in the field of geology, you might want to do a little more reading about the Lost Dutchman Mine.

Let's start with the words of Jacob Waltz himself:

1. "No prospector will ever find my mine." This could have several interpretations, but the most likely would be that most prospectors know that GENERALLY what you say is true, and you can follow the trail of placer gold back to its' source, JW knew that in this case that was not true. Also that no trace of mineralization could be seen from outside.

2. "No cowboy will ever find my mine." Cowboys are known for not getting off their horses unless they absolutely have to.


Ellie Baba,

You may be somewhat correct about Waltz's gold source. If true, Waltz said to Julia Roberts and Reinhart Petrasch in 1890, that he would ride and they would go along into the mountains, and he would show them where he hid his caches. This says to me that his mine is HARD to get to. So much so, that he took out several caches of ore because he knew he was getting too old to keep going to the mine itself. This would account for sightings of him in several places distant and unrelated to each other. He may have been checking on his caches.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Mrs Oroblanco wrote

From "The History of New Mexico":
quote:

It was probably around 1863 when Pablo and Miguel left California and went to Arizona. They held a registered mining claim on the Aqua Fria River a few miles from present day Black Canyon City, and they called their mine Valenciana, the same name as the abandoned silver mine in Mexico. ................................................. ..........Indian raids were always a problem, and Pablo and Miguel were attacked several times. During one of the battles an indian with a lance wounded Pablo. Miguel then sold the mine to a group of investors from California and they moved to the new town of Wickenburg, about a hundred miles southwest, which was booming after the discovery of the Vulture Mine" "unquote"

It goes on to tell how Pablo died in Wickenburg, Miguel married, opened a dry goods store and then a second one in Seymour when the Central Arizona Mining Company opened a stamp mill there in 1879. Then later, moved to Phoenix and opened a large mercantile store there at the corners of Washington and Central Streets (now Central Ave).

Cactusjumper wrote in response,

I am a little lost here. Can you tell us the author of "The History of New Mexico"? I could not find that quote in the book.

and since then Cactusjumper has posted,

I am unsure just how reliable Ken Hudnall would be for this kind of historical source. He deals in some less than scientific fields, and in this case gives no source for his story.

I will need to look into your source. I believe it is worded exactly like Blair wrote it. The question is, who was quoting whom?
While I do read some books that fall into this description, I have a hard time using them as source material for my conclusions.

I did notice that the Hudnall's were prolific authors. I have no doubt they know their topics, it's just
not things I put a lot of faith in. On the other hand, I have a number of books that deal with Templars in America. Don't believe it for a second, but it's an interesting subject of discussion. Might as well know the arguments for, as well as against.
Hudnall's book arrived today. There are no sources provided in the book, related to the Peralta's or the LDM chapter. On the other hand, he obviously worked off a number of other author's books.
Robert Blair seems to be the obvious source for this particular chapter.......good choice.

I am unsure why the LDM is included in a book on "The History And The Mystery Of New Mexico", but there it is. There are a number of factual errors in his chapter on the LDM, but the worst is on page 43: "One of the most famous lost treasures in the state of New Mexico is called the Lost Dutchman Mine." It's obvious that he knows the LDM/Superstition Mountains are located in Arizona, so one wonders how this slip got included in the book.

For me, Ken Hudnall would be far down on my list of sources on the history of the LDM. On the other hand, I have a lot of sources.

I have no doubt I will enjoy the rest of his book. My thanks for the link.

I know this is not my discussion but am a bit mystified at your replies Joe. Are you taking the position that the paragraphs posted by Mrs O were false and or erroneous? I do not see that she had recommended Hudnall's book as an excellent resource to find the Lost Dutchman, only posting the relevant material to the historical Peraltas. If her posted paragraphs are erroneous and/or false, please do point out the error concerning the Peraltas? Thank you in advance.

I did run across an article which at least suggests the Peraltas owned the Valenciana mine in Mexico, written by Gene Botts for Desert

So who are these particular Peraltas who figure so prominently in the Lost Dutchman legend? The two blamed most often are Pablo Peralta and his youngest son, Miguel. They were real people, prospectors and miners; however, I fictionalized their roles somewhat in Quest for Gold.

Pablo Peralta owned a silver mine in Ures, Sonora, for many years, but by the middle of the 19th century the silver was about exhausted and corruption in the local government forced him to abandon the mine. He moved his family to the Mother Lode country in Central California. There is substantial documentary evidence of their presence in Tuolumne County during the Gold Rush years.

It was probably about 1863 when Pablo and Miguel left California and went to Arizona. They held a registered mining claim on the Agua Fria River a few miles from present day Black Canyon City, and they called their mine the Valenciana, the same name as the abandoned silver mine in Mexico. The existence and location of that mine is well documented, and prospectors today occasionally rework the tailings that the Peraltas left behind.

In all probability, the Valenciana produced a fair amount of gold, but Indian raids were always a problem, and Pablo and Miguel were attacked several times.

http://www.desertusa.com/mag02/sep/per_stone.html

I am certain that this is NOT where I read it, and will keep looking but it will do for a starter.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

There was no aspersions cast at Beth......whatsoever. It was obvious you were only quoting what Hudnall wrote. He wrote the book in 2005 while Botts posted his spin in 2004. Blair's book came out in 1975. All had the same information. It did look like they were tying the Peralta's into the Valenciana Mine in Mexico. It could be read otherwise as well.

I find myself overlooking things and misunderstanding folks more and more. No offense intended. As I said, when the two of you use a book as a reference in these conversations, I am going to buy it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
You stated:
While you may have some knowledge in the field of geology, you might want to do a little more reading about the Lost Dutchman Mine.

Let's start with the words of Jacob Waltz himself:

1. "No prospector will ever find my mine." This could have several interpretations, but the most likely would be that most prospectors know that GENERALLY what you say is true, and you can follow the trail of placer gold back to its' source, JW knew that in this case that was not true. Also that no trace of mineralization could be seen from outside.

2. "No cowboy will ever find my mine." Cowboys are known for not getting off their horses unless they absolutely have to.

I've never proclaimed to be an expert in the field of geological sciences, however I do tend to listen carefully to the paid professional geological engineers and doctors who are degreed in the field of geological related sciences, and whenever they state something I tend to listen to them carefully.

I've been a part of some geological surveys and while my participation was purely periphial and unassociated to the actual sampling, I am by nature a curious and obtrusive sort, therefore I asked to tag along with them during the course of their studies, peppering them with questions all the while. It's amazing what they will say if you ask them the right questions and listen carefully while they are answering them.

I've asked what are the absolute best methods for determining the consistencies of gold and/or silver in any given zone and without variation they've all stated that direct alluvial and elluvial deposits are the very best way of determining a strike. Lacking those deposits, the second best way is by using an indirect method, which includes searching for higher than normal concentrations of associated minerals, magnetology, etc.

As far as what Mr. Waltz supposedly stated, the statement could very well be 100% truthful. The statement that no prospector would ever find his mine could very well be the Gospel truth if no such mine ever existed in the first place. In fact, this is the ONLY way that a person such as Mr. Waltz would have been able to make a statement such as that. After all, HE supposedly found it, so what would stop someone else from doing the same thing? Nothing at all, therefore if we were to take the statement as actually having been uttered by Mr. Waltz and factual in content, then we can determine that in order to make his statement 100% true and factual, we can therefore conclude that the mine in question was simply a tale.

As to Mr. Waltz stating that no cowboy would ever find his mine once again, this could have meant people who lived and worked on the range and not cowboys in specific. I also tend to call all men who live on the range "cowboys" even though they may not own so much as a single head of beef nor work on a ranch. It's just a very generic term and a very American one, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

.... the words of Jacob Waltz himself: "No prospector will ever find my mine." ...
As far as what Mr. Waltz supposedly stated, the statement could very well be 100% truthful. The statement that no prospector would ever find his mine could very well be the Gospel truth if no such mine ever existed in the first place. ...

This of course is the nut of the debate and an option few Dutch hunters seem willing to deal with. There is no reason to believe Waltz was any better a propspector than the hundreds or thousands that followed him. In fact, with the above statement attributed to him, it would be even more of an incentive to search the 'unreachable spots' for Waltz's followers than Waltz may have had himself. A thinking person might conclude that a) the information given by Waltz about the location of the mine was totally bogus in the first place; or b) there was no mine and the ore came from another source. When you consider the tenacity of the legions of searchers looking for this thing, especially the first 50 years when prospectors were well-experienced and the landscape was relatively unsullied, one must give serious thought to option b) as an explanation as to why the 'LDM' has not been located.

 

[lamar]

Dear Springfield;
One must also consider the possibility of Mr. Waltz having located said mine in a seemingly inaccessible location, such as on a narrow ledge or a sheer cliff however, if we are to seriously entertain this particular notion, then one must ask, "what in the world was Mr. Waltz doing in such an inaccessible spot in the first place?" Of course, the answer to that question is ultimately unanswerable.

And so, it would seem that the bulk of the evidence rests upon a few utterances by one man, and even those are questionable in nature or that he even stated such. Also, the phyical evidence which remains is very scant in quantity and highly contradictable in nature, therefore one should take what is positively known and weigh it against that which positively unknown all the while balancing the two opposites using the lever of doubt and uncertainty. In light of this, every man must draw their own conclusions.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

Dear Springfield;
One must also consider the possibility of Mr. Waltz having located said mine in a seemingly inaccessible location, such as on a narrow ledge or a sheer cliff however, if we are to seriously entertain this particular notion, then one must ask, "what in the world was Mr. Waltz doing in such an inaccessible spot in the first place?" Of course, the answer to that question is ultimately unanswerable.

And so, it would seem that the bulk of the evidence rests upon a few utterances by one man, and even those are questionable in nature or that he even stated such. Also, the phyical evidence which remains is very scant in quantity and highly contradictable in nature, therefore one should take what is positively known and weigh it against that which positively unknown all the while balancing the two opposites using the lever of doubt and uncertainty. In light of this, every man must draw their own conclusions.
Your friend;
LAMAR

That said, I place myself more or less in the 'EB camp', suspecting that there is something of great value that lies within the general confines of the Superstition range, and that Jacob Waltz is somehow connected to same. Whether this is part and parcel of the 'Peralta Mines' enigma too, which also lies within the same area, is yet to be determined. The 33° north latitude connection that EB mentioned should definitely not be glossed over, with not only the accepted 'LDM' area lying at 33°30' (maybe more importantly Adamsville at 33°00'), but also the 'Lost Adams' at approximately 33° in Arizona/New Mexico, Santo Nino de Atocha at 32°55' in NM, the Caballo Mountains legends at 32°55' in NM, and Victorio Peak at 32°55' in NM. Coincidence or pattern? I don't know, but it seems plausible that the 'LDM' (a major node) may be part of an even bigger mystery.

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi Group,

One of the photographs that I scanned and posted was selected from my scanned file instead of Picasa 3. I am going to post it again on this page. Hundreds of photographs that I have taken over the years were shot with my Canon A-1, a 35 mm film camera. All of these pics must be scanned in order to access them from my computer and eventually most of them will end up here .

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi Group,

I had to share this photograph with you all. This happens to be one of my favorite shadow writting examples. How many numbers and symbols can you all find? There are quite a few and with a little work you should be able to find them all. Let me know what you all can find and we can make a comparison and take notes. This is a great panel to sharpen your skills and to recognize some important techniques.

EB

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Oroblanco posted a question to Lamar

Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed. May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion? Thank you in advance,

And Lamar replied

Was my question one that you consider pointless and/or worthless? I thought I had phrased it politely, perhaps you missed it? I will scratch it off to an oversight. EDIT Forget it.

.

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

There was no aspersions cast at Beth......whatsoever. It was obvious you were only quoting what Hudnall wrote. He wrote the book in 2005 while Botts posted his spin in 2004. Blair's book came out in 1975. All had the same information. It did look like they were tying the Peralta's into the Valenciana Mine in Mexico. It could be read otherwise as well.

I find myself overlooking things and misunderstanding folks more and more. No offense intended. As I said, when the two of you use a book as a reference in these conversations, I am going to buy it.

No offense was taken buddy, just was a little surprised at the obvious disdainful attitude towards that author, which apparently had arisen from Beth having used a single paragraph that summarized the historical Peraltas. I don't recall seeing you react quite like that to what seemed an innocent enough passage citation. I honestly do not recall recommending the book myself, as I have not (yet) read it and it will be a while as it is deeply buried in the front of storage. I hope I have not misled you into buying a book which is of no use to you by my questioning your attitude towards the author, when I had not even read it myself. I already owe you one after all!
Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco


Postscript
This post by our friend Lamar has had me puzzled.

Lamar wrote

I've never proclaimed to be an expert in the field of geological sciences, however I do tend to listen carefully to the paid professional geological engineers and doctors who are degreed in the field of geological related sciences, and whenever they state something I tend to listen to them carefully.

I notice that you said, "...whenever they state something I tend to listen to them carefully". So when a geologist tells you something in the field of geology, you listen carefully. However when several experienced and seasoned prospectors tell you that many lode gold deposits HAVE NO ASSOCIATED PLACER, people with many thousand miles of field exploration, months at a time literally, possibly over a century of combined experience on three continents - you disbelieve it utterly, continue to stick to your guns about how a lode gold deposit ALWAYS has a placer associated and this is the ONLY way to find a gold lode vein deposit. Your attitude towards the words of your fellow T-net members versus some "paid professional" regardless of the vast experience and yes PAID geological exploration for mines, some of which have been paying very well is a mystery to me. I notice too, that some questions you ignore as if nothing was said. How would you like it if those "paid professionals" should treat your statements and questions with such aplomb? Maybe I should retract my invitation to go on a prospecting expedition to you Lamar, in fact in light of what I have seen, consider it never happened.
Oroblanco

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

Maybe im just in a Halloweenie kind of mood but this is all i can make out ............Could be the shadows are saying a fun house nearby?
I will call this mountain (Two Clowns and a Jack-o-Lantern)