Cubfan64
Silver Member
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2006
- Messages
- 3,001
- Reaction score
- 2,858
- Golden Thread
- 0
- Location
- New Hampshire - USA
- Detector(s) used
- Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Beautiful photo!
Cubfan64 said:Beautiful photo!
Dear Oroblanco;
I am not on any sort of *ego trip* my friend, I simply do not believe that the LDM existed. Whether it's mentally harmful for someone to search for the LDM is strictly a case by case study, as some seem to go overboard with their research and in doing so, they tend to toss conventional beliefs, along with conventional wisdom, out the window of logic. In this light, I suppose that searching for the LDM may be bad, however I also feel that it's not my place to judge the mental stability of others.
Dear group;
I firmly believe that in order to locate a sizeable ore vein a person would have needed to first locate the alluvial deposits of the lode, then with infinite patience and persistence, eventually located the elluvial deposits in order to ascertain where the lode is situated.
cactusjumper said:Dear Lamar,
There is a steep ravine that runs northward just to the east of the pit mine in my picture. The mine was worked as recently as 1999 and there is no sign of an "alluvial fan" anywhere around it or below it.
The area has been checked with metal detectors, without any signs of the mine above.
Take care,
Joe
Dear group;
I firmly believe that in order to locate a sizeable ore vein a person would have needed to first locate the alluvial deposits of the lode, then with infinite patience and persistence, eventually located the elluvial deposits in order to ascertain where the lode is situated.
On that note, you are wrong about placers always showing up below a mine. It depends on how the mine breaches the surface, and exactly where and how it is located. I believe the picture I posted shows just such a situation.
.<Arizona Lode Gold Mines and Mining, Wilson, Cunningham and Butler, The Arizona Bureau of Mines Bulletin 137, 1934, revised 1967, amended 1974, The University of Arizona, Tucson AZ, pp15>The epithermal veins <in AZ gold deposits> have formed no placers of economic importance
<Ibid, pp 244>It is also true that some valuable gold lodes do not yield much or any, placer gold, and this statement may apply to all the lodes in an entire district, such as the Oatman district in Arizona. The absence of placer gold should not, then deter a prospector if other conditions appear not unfavorable and, especially, if gold has been found in the district.
When no placer gold is found in a district, it is necessary to search for a lode or indications of the existence of a lode without the guidance of placer gold particles that have been shed from it.
lamar said:Dear cactusjumper;
Trust me, the placers are, or rather WERE there, my friend. Gold tends to break down into steadily smaller particles as time progresses, and the smaller the particles become, the easier it becomes for them to travel, and they do travel. The associated placers may be as far away from your lode workings by tens, or even hundreds of miles, but trust me, they are somewhere, unless someone has already recovered them. Gold does not just *pop up* out of the ground without any associated errosion attached to the process. If this were true then the gold would never surface and would remain forever deep within the bowels the Earth.
A textbook example of lode *shedding* may be witnessed by the Tipuani formation situated in the foothills of the Andes mountains in Bolivia. With an almost constant runoff from the Andes, the rivers of Bolivia and Brazil are fed gold deposits at an almost constant rate of flow. Gold placers have been successfully recovered as far away as 800 miles from the formation, but the placers ARE from the Tipuani. Of course, the closer one gets to the formation, the larger the gold tends to be and also the gold tends to have more definition than the nuggets located further downstream in the flow.
And there exists a multitude of reasons why there are no placers deposits in the vicinity of the operation in the photo, my friend. Maybe the ravine was cut by errosion somewhat recently and therefore no placers would be located in it, or perhaps the same errosive process which carved out the ravine shifted the placers along with the soil. And so on, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR
From "The History of New Mexico":
quote:
It was probably around 1863 when Pablo and Miguel left California and went to Arizona. They held a registered mining claim on the Aqua Fria River a few miles from present day Black Canyon City, and they called their mine Valenciana, the same name as the abandoned silver mine in Mexico. ................................................. ..........Indian raids were always a problem, and Pablo and Miguel were attacked several times. During one of the battles an indian with a lance wounded Pablo. Miguel then sold the mine to a group of investors from California and they moved to the new town of Wickenburg, about a hundred miles southwest, which was booming after the discovery of the Vulture Mine" "unquote"
It goes on to tell how Pablo died in Wickenburg, Miguel married, opened a dry goods store and then a second one in Seymour when the Central Arizona Mining Company opened a stamp mill there in 1879. Then later, moved to Phoenix and opened a large mercantile store there at the corners of Washington and Central Streets (now Central Ave).
I am a little lost here. Can you tell us the author of "The History of New Mexico"? I could not find that quote in the book.
I am unsure just how reliable Ken Hudnall would be for this kind of historical source. He deals in some less than scientific fields, and in this case gives no source for his story.
I will need to look into your source. I believe it is worded exactly like Blair wrote it. The question is, who was quoting whom?
While I do read some books that fall into this description, I have a hard time using them as source material for my conclusions.
I did notice that the Hudnall's were prolific authors. I have no doubt they know their topics, it's just
not things I put a lot of faith in. On the other hand, I have a number of books that deal with Templars in America. Don't believe it for a second, but it's an interesting subject of discussion. Might as well know the arguments for, as well as against.
Hudnall's book arrived today. There are no sources provided in the book, related to the Peralta's or the LDM chapter. On the other hand, he obviously worked off a number of other author's books.
Robert Blair seems to be the obvious source for this particular chapter.......good choice.
I am unsure why the LDM is included in a book on "The History And The Mystery Of New Mexico", but there it is. There are a number of factual errors in his chapter on the LDM, but the worst is on page 43: "One of the most famous lost treasures in the state of New Mexico is called the Lost Dutchman Mine." It's obvious that he knows the LDM/Superstition Mountains are located in Arizona, so one wonders how this slip got included in the book.
For me, Ken Hudnall would be far down on my list of sources on the history of the LDM. On the other hand, I have a lot of sources.
I have no doubt I will enjoy the rest of his book. My thanks for the link.
http://www.desertusa.com/mag02/sep/per_stone.htmlSo who are these particular Peraltas who figure so prominently in the Lost Dutchman legend? The two blamed most often are Pablo Peralta and his youngest son, Miguel. They were real people, prospectors and miners; however, I fictionalized their roles somewhat in Quest for Gold.
Pablo Peralta owned a silver mine in Ures, Sonora, for many years, but by the middle of the 19th century the silver was about exhausted and corruption in the local government forced him to abandon the mine. He moved his family to the Mother Lode country in Central California. There is substantial documentary evidence of their presence in Tuolumne County during the Gold Rush years.
It was probably about 1863 when Pablo and Miguel left California and went to Arizona. They held a registered mining claim on the Agua Fria River a few miles from present day Black Canyon City, and they called their mine the Valenciana, the same name as the abandoned silver mine in Mexico. The existence and location of that mine is well documented, and prospectors today occasionally rework the tailings that the Peraltas left behind.
In all probability, the Valenciana produced a fair amount of gold, but Indian raids were always a problem, and Pablo and Miguel were attacked several times.
lamar said:.... the words of Jacob Waltz himself: "No prospector will ever find my mine." ...
As far as what Mr. Waltz supposedly stated, the statement could very well be 100% truthful. The statement that no prospector would ever find his mine could very well be the Gospel truth if no such mine ever existed in the first place. ...
lamar said:Dear Springfield;
One must also consider the possibility of Mr. Waltz having located said mine in a seemingly inaccessible location, such as on a narrow ledge or a sheer cliff however, if we are to seriously entertain this particular notion, then one must ask, "what in the world was Mr. Waltz doing in such an inaccessible spot in the first place?" Of course, the answer to that question is ultimately unanswerable.
And so, it would seem that the bulk of the evidence rests upon a few utterances by one man, and even those are questionable in nature or that he even stated such. Also, the phyical evidence which remains is very scant in quantity and highly contradictable in nature, therefore one should take what is positively known and weigh it against that which positively unknown all the while balancing the two opposites using the lever of doubt and uncertainty. In light of this, every man must draw their own conclusions.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed. May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion? Thank you in advance,
Roy,
There was no aspersions cast at Beth......whatsoever. It was obvious you were only quoting what Hudnall wrote. He wrote the book in 2005 while Botts posted his spin in 2004. Blair's book came out in 1975. All had the same information. It did look like they were tying the Peralta's into the Valenciana Mine in Mexico. It could be read otherwise as well.
I find myself overlooking things and misunderstanding folks more and more. No offense intended. As I said, when the two of you use a book as a reference in these conversations, I am going to buy it.
I've never proclaimed to be an expert in the field of geological sciences, however I do tend to listen carefully to the paid professional geological engineers and doctors who are degreed in the field of geological related sciences, and whenever they state something I tend to listen to them carefully.