found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

[ivan salis]

found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

while chatting with a local fellow doing a bit of research on a confederate camp site area in my area -- the person spoke of a "missing" union unit --a white officer commanding a small foot patrol unit of black soldiers ( said to be between 30 to 50 men) -- these men ran into a much larger rebel unit and got "boxed in" refusing to surrender ( the white officer was killed early on in the fight and it seems the black troops feared being hanged if they surrendered as this was wide spread belief --true or not --that this would occur if the black troops were caught by southern troops) so they fought to the death to the last man. -- after the fight for them refusing to surrender and thus forcing additional fighting which caused some additional maiming and killing of some of the southern soldiers (several more than if they had just surrendered when asked to )-- the angry southern soldiers piled their bodies in a heap and burnt them in revenge . --- the man who told me said his grandmother told him of it as a child --and said that she knew because it was upon her great grandpa's land (who was alive at the time * and told her as a kid) he was there when the event occured in the civil war -I have also found out from the man I spoke to that according to him no union troops ever came in the area to "look" for the "lost union patrol". so upon that bit of land is the burnt remains of between 30 to 50 men of the "lost patrol"-- I hope to attempt to find their remains ( if I can get land owner ok) and have them properly honored if I can.

later note ****this is freakish -- after completing the above post --I felt "compelled" to go see if this possible "site" had been developed or not --at 1 am in the morning mind you and its a fair bit from home --got in the car drove down there a sort of a remote area -- after seeing the spot -- I could have returned the way I came or take the long way around -- the was a small creek a bit down the other long road way --very possibly were the lost patrol got pinned in at --so I go that way -- as I approach it , it appears somethings in the road --the night fog was coming in but the image of something snaps me to --in the fog is a totally wrecked car with someone in it still --the car is still steaming and leaking gas --it had to have just occurred- I help the driver out ---the driver is muttering I thought I saw something in the road so I swerved -- its clear to see he went off the curve by the bridge --hitting trees with his passenger side which spun his car back on the road -- totally fubar ed-- the 20ish something kids beat up and bleeding but lucky to be alive --all he can do is cry "my car" over and over --silly kid -- hes standing by the car in the road even after I told him it might blow stay away from it -- then a huge dually type pick up comes flying like a bat outta --- down the road right at the no lights on wreck with the kid between the two --I flash my brights up and down several times to alert the oncoming truck --he pays no mind -- only at the last second does he see it and slam on brakes --close call--if I had not alerted him he would have plowed right into it kid wreck and leaking gas and all --boom. -- you know the "lost patrol" bodies was burnt to a crisp.-- this is freaky indeed. === the dually truck never even stopped just went around us on the berm "rolled on"

 

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[FloridaHunter]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

This is the kind of story that the soldiers and people in the community would not exactly be bragging about, writing down, or telling their children. However, if this did happen, it could survive as a kind of dark secret. Stories get exaggerated over time, but I could easily see 6-7 black soldiers executed and burned to cover the evidence.

Union soldiers did not exactly spare the torch on many a Southern community. "Crimes" were committed on both sides. No doubt there were some pissed off Confederates ready to exact some revenge.

I think it would be GREAT if any evidence could be found, and their bones properly laid to rest.

I'd be happy to assist with any research at the Florida State Archives here in Tallahassee.

 

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[ivan salis]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

the man that the story was learn from by me -- his great grandkin were in the 1st florida calvary (confederate) company B-- higgenbotham* one of the three who served from the family --- who was called up and went to tennesse finally surrenderd I think at wars end in north carolina --and he is buried in dinsmore , florida *---so the man's confederate direct kin folk of the past did NOT take part in the killing ---however it was upon their homestead / farm land area that the act is reported to have occured. -- as his family was former confederate soldier himself --I strongly doubt that the man I heard it from would wish to "slur" the history of the local confedrate soldiers unless said story had some basis in fact.--- but thats just my veiw point on the issue.

 

[tinpan]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

-- finding these men would be liike bringing them to life agian --- "freeing" them from being lost souls and closing the book on final chapter of their lives.

That is a grand philosophy, Ivan.

Alternatively, if you fail to find those men you have freed the false accusations of the honorable men who fought and died for the Confederate States of America. And you can close the chapter on yet another horrific rumor created at their expense.

It is truley a win win situation

What was honorable about the CCS SHENANDOAH ?


tinpan

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

as for the CSS Shenandoah* she was fitted out as a merchant raider * one of the objects of war is to disrupt enemy supply lines and trade -- this was her "appointed" task --england supplied war goods to both sides during the civil war *

according to the record as much as possible lives were spared *by the CSS Shenandoah with lives only taken in fighting-- if they surrendered the ships were sunk and all lives spared , since her captain had "conflicting" news in the newspaper --lees surrender * vs davis vow to fight on --since davis was the president --he took davis vow to fight on as an "order" over lees surrender--and continued to do so --- later on upon hearing of davis's surrender -- and knowing that they might be charged as "pirates" --as confederate merchant raiders often wrongly were they wizely headed to england to surrender.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

call 3 times today -- not at home answering machine -- but I'm on the hunt now just a matter of time .

 

[tinpan]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

as for the CSS Shenandoah* she was fitted out as a merchant raider * one of the objects of war is to disrupt enemy supply lines and trade -- this was her "appointed" task --england supplied war goods to both sides during the civil war *

according to the record as much as possible lives were spared *by the CSS Shenandoah with lives only taken in fighting-- if they surrendered the ships were sunk and all lives spared , since her captain had "conflicting" news in the newspaper --lees surrender * vs davis vow to fight on --since davis was the president --he took davis vow to fight on as an "order" over lees surrender--and continued to do so --- later on upon hearing of davis's surrender -- and knowing that they might be charged as "pirates" --as confederate merchant raiders often wrongly were they wizely headed to england to surrender.

hi ivan ,Attacking unarmed civil shipping in the uncharted and unprotected territorial waters of a neutral country is hardly brave or honorable.

tinpan

 

[TreasureHunters]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (mo

Find them!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

merchant vessels of countries at war * unless in port generally are always at risk and are though of as fair game --to be a unarmed merchant vesselmeans you should stop and yeild to the armed vessel --- since attempts to flee will cause you to be fired upon and needless loss of life ----said armed vessel is to remove the crew and passengers of the unarmed vessel unharmed and take whatever goods they wish and sink said enemy vessel without loss of life.

while not "brave or noble" that is the task of a "commerace or trade raider" to disrupt enemy shipping / supply lines and cost them money --hopefully they will then pull vessels off blockade duty to try to hunt the raider --thus opening the coast for confederate blockade runners to be able to work and bring in supplies to the south -- union blockade vessels stopped southern "trade" --why shouldn't the confederates do the same via "raiders"?

 

[tinpan]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

merchant vessels of countries at war * unless in port generally are always at risk and are though of as fair game --to be a unarmed merchant vesselmeans you should stop and yeild to the armed vessel --- since attempts to flee will cause you to be fired upon and needless loss of life ----said armed vessel is to remove the crew and passengers of the unarmed vessel unharmed and take whatever goods they wish and sink said enemy vessel without loss of life.

while not "brave or noble" that is the task of a "commerace or trade raider" to disrupt enemy shipping / supply lines and cost them money --hopefully they will then pull vessels off blockade duty to try to hunt the raider --thus opening the coast for confederate blockade runners to be able to work and bring in supplies to the south -- union blockade vessels stopped southern "trade" --why shouldn't the confederates do the same via "raiders"?

So why did both the union and confederates sign the "Treaty of Neutrality" with the British and their colonies ?

tinpan

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

oh one reason could be *** because both sides got arms and supplies from england and neither one wanted to lose english support -- they both would have signed anything that england ask for --and neither one would attack english ships directly -- however the union blockade the southern ports "disrupted" normal british shipping to the south --by being neutral england could sell to both sides -- thus making a lot of money --and since either side could ill afford england going with the other side -- terms of a sort were reached -- english ships would bring in supplies to be sold to the "confederate cause" into it colony of nassau * there it was sold and transfered onto "blockade runners" which were then fair game for union vessels as they tried to run the blockade of the southern coast line -- the union liked the deal since they only had to watch the US southern coast line and not spread out their forces trying to be everywhere at once -- the english like it since their shipping and selling of goods was not bothered * and the south like it since it cut down on the otherwize long trip to england -- only short fast trips to nassau were need to get supplies .

later on in the war the english "offically" quit selling supplies to the south --so there was no longer a issue of whos "side" they were on --they had went "union" --so past items signed by the south were then were in effect null and void .

 

[tinpan]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

oh one reason could be *** because both sides got arms and supplies from england and neither one wanted to lose english support -- they both would have signed anything that england ask for --and neither one would attack english ships directly -- however the union blockade the southern ports "disrupted" normal british shipping to the south --by being neutral england could sell to both sides -- thus making a lot of money --and since either side could ill afford england going with the other side -- terms of a sort were reached -- english ships would bring in supplies to be sold to the "confederate cause" into it colony of nassau * there it was sold and transfered onto "blockade runners" which were then fair game for union vessels as they tried to run the blockade of the southern coast line -- the union liked the deal since they only had to watch the US southern coast line and not spread out their forces trying to be everywhere at once -- the english like it since their shipping and selling of goods was not bothered * and the south like it since it cut down on the otherwize long trip to england -- only short fast trips to nassau were need to get supplies .

later on in the war the english "offically" quit selling supplies to the south --so there was no longer a issue of whos "side" they were on --they had went "union" --so past items signed by the south were then were in effect null and void .

Under maritime law at the time, any ship in trouble could seek safe ancorage in any port to make repairs.When the Shenandoah had rudder problems this right was given to them under this law.Thus the Shenandoah ancored in Port Philip Bay.The Union Ambassador to the Colony of Victoria at the time demanded the sinking of the Shenandoah and the crew be arrested.Fine line between existing law and the Treaty. So was it broken.The Union Ambassador wrote a letter about this in the local papers and the next morning 17,000 local colonials went down to the port to cheer the "Shenandoah". Maritime law prevailed and the Shenandoad sailed off. The union seeked legal action against the Colony Of Victoria after the Civil War ended.Seems we breached the Treaty and had to pay the UNION thousands of pounds to pay for the damage done to union ships attacked by the Shenandoah because we respected Maritime law.

Seems this Colony never sided with the Union and the British considered Victoria a pack of rebels. So our hearts at the time where with the South.

tinpan

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

as i said "the british" made money off the war ---not the aussies -- the "regular" british were using aussie land as a penal colony until 1868 (post civil war) and thought of its people as scum for the most part sadly --and the native local population of folks already there as a "problem" to be dealt with much as the indains were in the US midwest --wipe em out or force them into bleak wasteland areas under govt control

of course the sent in "locals" --penal convicts and decendants of penal convicts for the most part -- forced to be in aussie land by the british penal system --would root for the southern rebel "underdog" vs what they viewed as "big govt" the us govt -- much as they had a "us vs them" veiw of aussie vs english -- some who could leave aussieland even joined on as part of the vessels crew I think.

i do not lump "england / the british" and aussieland together at this time -- more like england was the boss and aussie land was just starting to be "independant" of doing whatever england said.

 

[hikeinmts]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

All the subjects covered in this thread, and all the comments, and we are still only on page 1. I wonder where else this thread will take us? Believe me, it is entertaining, and I will read as new posts are added.
Wish I knew enough about the events that are being mentioned to make a helpful comment, but I don't. So, I will read.....all of your posts.....and learn. (BTW, interesting about war atrocities.....I am living in Korea, where the Japanese did their share of ugly things to this nation.)

 

[spartacus53]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

I wish you well on this interesting quest. I would forget all the naysayers and just stick with getting permission to hunt the area that you believe may hold the answers. Atrocities were committed by both sides during the CW, so this event if true, it's nothing out of the norm. As far as record keeping the Confederacy was a little lacking in that area. Good luck

 

[tapoutking]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

Ex Army 160th SOAR here. And for the record, we've done alot of things that you won't find in any records or that would "fit" into any of the written history you will find..

Keep digging.

 

[Marty-Graw]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

there is no way I would call this search off......I have a story I am looking into myself......about 10 years ago a buddy of mine told me that about 10 years before (total of roughly 20 years ago now) he and the girl he dated in high school were visiting her Grandfather.....the old man told my buddy that he had been hiking not too far from his house and found a cave hidden by some bushes.....inside the cave was a bunch of CW supplies......he couldnt find the cave again because of the afore mentioned bushes.....is this true or a lie?......who knows but unless the old man or my buddy lied then I think it is definately a possibility because I heard it second hand .... old man told my buddy who told me....it hasnt been passed down a hundred times and exxagerated each time.......in Ivan's case.......the old man that lived on the property at the time of the killing/burning.....told the granddaughter who in turn told Ivan....again second hand.....not passed down several times.......is it true?....who knows ..... there is nothing that would stop me from looking....it isnt like looking for a shipwreck that costs thousands of dollars with just a hope of finding something....he would only be out a few dollars at a time for gas and MD batteries....and if he DOES find something then he can report it to the archies or historical society (if he chooses)....and THEN IT WOULD BE DOCUMENTED!!!!

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

note the man who told me the story his last name is "Higginbotham"in the book --"confederate military history" as edited by Gen Clement A. Evans -- volume 11 Texas and Florida * --- in the florida section --written by Col. JJ Dickison -- it was noted that during the union raid that occured on July 17th,1864 (thus well after the battle of Olustee) Major Fox and 100 black foot soldiers and 125 calvary troops took the horses of ELIJAH HIGGINBOTHAM -- this man is the direct in line blood kin of said story teller * his farm was a rest area for confederate horses that need to rest and rebuild their strengh --his job was to take care of the horses

also worth noting -- during the raid two homes were burnt down Joel Wingate's and Mr Jones ( Jones horses were taken as well)---Mr Gieger's slaves were taken as well --2 men --Joseph Hagans and Washington Broward were arrested .

the Higginbotham / Higgenbotham family is known to spell their names differantly --one branch of the family one way --one the other but they are related to one another still.---there are 3 Higgenbotham's listed in the 1st florida company B --- also after the war the Higginbothams married alot with the Jones (several members in company B) and also with the Braddocks --(also several member in company B) many of the common local family names of today were in company B

I spoke with him again today --he told me his kin was "ELIJAH HIGGINBOTHAM" and that sadly he had not asked for more info as a child and thus he did not know the exact farm location only the general area --after offering him all the civil war info I dug up on various branches of his family tree that I dug up --he said he would check with "grumpy" Higginbotham ( a very old but very knowledgible kin folk of his ) --the family know it all**type to see if he knew anything more for me.

 

[savant365]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

tag, very interesting thread

 

[savant365]

Re: found tip to possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (more)

Oh good grief, Ivan. There are scads of documentation surrounding the Battle of Olustee, the aftermath of the battle and even the retreat of the Union back to Jacksonville. Somebody told you a story about some colored troops that were out gunned...killed and then the bodies burned as revenge. These dots do not connect. Nowhere in the history of the Civil War will you find one side or the other burned the bodies of dead soldiers.
You cannot twist/spin real historical facts to fit folklore.

Harper's Weekly, (30th April, 1864)

We give on page 284 a sketch of the horrible Massacre at Fort Pillow. The annals of savage warfare nowhere record a more inhuman, fiendish butchery than this, perpetrated by the representatives of the “superior civilization” of the States in rebellion. It can not be wondered at that our officers and soldiers in the West are determined to avenge, at all opportunities, the cold-blooded murder of their comrades; and yet we can but contemplate with pain the savage practices which rebel inhumanity thus forces upon the service. The account of the massacre as telegraphed from Cairo is as follows:



On the 12th April, the rebel General Forrest appeared before Fort Pillow, near Columbus, Kentucky, attacking it with considerable vehemence. This was followed up by frequent demands for its surrender, which were refused by Major Booth, who commanded the fort. The fight was then continued up until 3 p.m., when Major Booth was killed, and the rebels, in large numbers, swarmed over the intrenchments. Up to that time comparatively few of our men had been killed; but immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks, including the wounded. Both white and black were bayoneted, shot, or sabred; even dead bodies were horribly mutilated, and children of seven and eight years, and several negro women killed in cold blood. Soldiers unable to speak from wounds were shot dead, and their bodies rolled down the banks into the river. The dead and wounded negroes were piled in heaps and burned, and several citizens, who had joined our forces for protection, were killed or wounded. Out of the garrison of six hundred only two hundred remained alive. Three hundred of those massacred were negroes; five were buried alive. Six guns were captured by the rebels, and carried off, including tow 10-pound Parrotts, and two 12-pound howitzers. A large amount of stores was destroyed or carried away.

http://mac110.assumption.edu/aas/Reports/harpftpillow.html

I don't know how accurate the Harpers Weekly was in it's reporting but it appears that there is written records of black troops bodies being burned by Confederate soldiers.

Charlie

 

[truckinbutch]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

I'm on your side . Go for it !
Jim