found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

[ivan salis]

found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

while chatting with a local fellow doing a bit of research on a confederate camp site area in my area -- the person spoke of a "missing" union unit --a white officer commanding a small foot patrol unit of black soldiers ( said to be between 30 to 50 men) -- these men ran into a much larger rebel unit and got "boxed in" refusing to surrender ( the white officer was killed early on in the fight and it seems the black troops feared being hanged if they surrendered as this was wide spread belief --true or not --that this would occur if the black troops were caught by southern troops) so they fought to the death to the last man. -- after the fight for them refusing to surrender and thus forcing additional fighting which caused some additional maiming and killing of some of the southern soldiers (several more than if they had just surrendered when asked to )-- the angry southern soldiers piled their bodies in a heap and burnt them in revenge . --- the man who told me said his grandmother told him of it as a child --and said that she knew because it was upon her great grandpa's land (who was alive at the time * and told her as a kid) he was there when the event occured in the civil war -I have also found out from the man I spoke to that according to him no union troops ever came in the area to "look" for the "lost union patrol". so upon that bit of land is the burnt remains of between 30 to 50 men of the "lost patrol"-- I hope to attempt to find their remains ( if I can get land owner ok) and have them properly honored if I can.

later note ****this is freakish -- after completing the above post --I felt "compelled" to go see if this possible "site" had been developed or not --at 1 am in the morning mind you and its a fair bit from home --got in the car drove down there a sort of a remote area -- after seeing the spot -- I could have returned the way I came or take the long way around -- the was a small creek a bit down the other long road way --very possibly were the lost patrol got pinned in at --so I go that way -- as I approach it , it appears somethings in the road --the night fog was coming in but the image of something snaps me to --in the fog is a totally wrecked car with someone in it still --the car is still steaming and leaking gas --it had to have just occurred- I help the driver out ---the driver is muttering I thought I saw something in the road so I swerved -- its clear to see he went off the curve by the bridge --hitting trees with his passenger side which spun his car back on the road -- totally fubar ed-- the 20ish something kids beat up and bleeding but lucky to be alive --all he can do is cry "my car" over and over --silly kid -- hes standing by the car in the road even after I told him it might blow stay away from it -- then a huge dually type pick up comes flying like a bat outta --- down the road right at the no lights on wreck with the kid between the two --I flash my brights up and down several times to alert the oncoming truck --he pays no mind -- only at the last second does he see it and slam on brakes --close call--if I had not alerted him he would have plowed right into it kid wreck and leaking gas and all --boom. -- you know the "lost patrol" bodies was burnt to a crisp.-- this is freaky indeed. === the dually truck never even stopped just went around us on the berm "rolled on"

 

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[GL]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

Then Ivan should simply give up and forget about it. We should all cease investigating events that may or may not have happened because if it would have happened surely there would be reams of documents supporting it. Especially considering how well documented and how detailed every second of every event of the Civil War was. I mean it's only been 144 years. It is impossible to think anything took place unnoticed and off the record since we all know 19th century war was incredibly orderly. Those 500 MIA soldiers couldn't possibly have anything to do with this because they couldn't have been missing in such a manner. We should never look for MIA soldiers based on unsupported tips and leads. I mean it's just 30-50 possible MIAs.

Right?

 

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[NGE]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

yeah, what GL said......NGE

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

It's Ivan's gig... he'll either find more information, some proof, another witness's story, or something.

Either way - it remains a story and always will I guess, now that this post exists - the perpetual electronic story.

Someday Ivan - or someone - will have to find the place where this deed was reported to have happened, or figure out that it didn't happen by accounting for those missing dudes.




I heard they hiked south and joined the Confederacy, and that's why the Union never found them.

 

[GL]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

If someone has a lead or tip, weak or otherwise, to the location of possible MIA soldiers then I feel it should be followed through and supported. There were over 500 MIAs reported in the area, this could possibly account for up to 50 of them. I think it is obviously worth checking into at the very least.
That's what I offer to this thread, support for the search for MIAs.

 

[Bill Battle]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (updat

If someone has a lead or tip, weak or otherwise, to the location of possible MIA soldiers then I feel it should be followed through and supported. There were over 500 MIAs reported in the area, this could possibly account for up to 50 of them. I think it is obviously worth checking into at the very least.
That's what I offer to this thread, support for the search for MIAs.

First of all, I think it's a great adventure that Ivan is experiencing in his quest to find the allusive site of the alleged massacre. Mysteries are always fun and I hope he continues to pursue it. That said, I would like to mention something about the casualty category entitled "missing". The numbers quoted in this category are most always vastly overstated when calculated immediately after a battle. Once a fight is concluded, the troops muster and roll is called. Any members of the unit not accounted for are recorded as being "missing". This number was always overstated because of the numbers of soldiers that deserted, got lost or separated from their units, retreated with a unit different than their own, or became stragglers, common after a battle. Many of the missing troops eventually reunited with their units, but the battle casualty reports were almost never amended to reflect that fact. Some missing soldiers were actually killed but not accounted for, and of course, captured.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

the battle of olustee * fla --has a about a 10% MIA rate for union troops ( 506 were counted as mia -- out of about 5,000 / 5500)--many of them black infantry troopers * --( it was noted in the records ( diary remarks) of those that were there fighting that day ) that at least one confederate calvary commander told his troops as they went into battle in olustee that he would not be taking black prisoners.

comparing the POW numbers and reported dead number of union soldiers by the confederates (who controlled the battle feild afterward ) --with the unions reports of known dead and MIA ---still leaves a "gap" of about 188 men unaccounted for. -- these 30 to 50 men might be part of that 188 .

the event is said to have occured at the OLD civil war era farm owned by the higginbotham / higgenbotham family in the rough general area of where modern GARDEN and JONES roads intersect AT * --- I have phyiscally went there -- upon turning off garden onto jones (a "T" shaped junction with the long leg being jones ) there is a huge undeveloped treeless open feild farm type area --were cattle are being raised at today -- it would very easy to see it as a "horse pasture" grazing area of long ago -- due to it massive size -- and posted signs all over it -- finding the owner and getting the ok to look about might be hard *these days ---- most land records of who owned what land during civil war timesin this area got wiped out in the great jacksonville fire of 1901 -- not helping me in my search to locate exactly where the old farm / homestead was at thus making matters much harder-- the roads name I find very interesting however --roads are often named for or by those who live on it, -- JONES road -- note the higginbotham / higgenbotham family --after the war married with the JONES--and the BRADDOCKS a lot -- folks tended to marry next door neighbors and other "close by" freinds of the family ( note most all the"post war" marrying of the higginbotham / higgenbotham family was with other families from company B --1st florida calvary) --you tended to marry who you knew -- and you knew the "neighbors"

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

"-- I hope to attempt to find their remains ( if I can get land owner ok) and have them properly honored if I can




Unselfish and honorable. Kudos. HHHH

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

just bits of info bouncing about -- however jones road does connect down a the road a bit with the current "rails to trails" bike / hiking path -- that bike / hiking path was laid down on the old civil war era railroad bed that ran from baldwin to jacksonville * --a well known and documented * retreat route that union forces took while returnibg from olustee *** it is possibvle that union forces retreating down the track as stragglers were caught up with by confederate calvary --and fled up jones road trying to get away from them. --- I have phyiscally went to the intersection of jones road and where the old rail bed was -they do connect .-- I'm thinking that it MIGHT be the route they took while fleeing.

 

[Jon Phillips]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

As far as documentation goes....My main interest is in the Seminole Wars, and in my research, I have found a couple of period maps that show a reboubt, that was later indicated as a battle, just about three miles from my house. I have been able to find ZERO documentation on any of it! And I have about thirty books (period and modern) and twenty cd's full of research.

I don't know how the Official Records were recorded....Just the Union's version, or later, through interviews with Confederates?

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

at the battle of olustee web sight --the story as told by a actual person who took part in the battle * lawrance jackson * -- part of the confederate calvary forces -- states that he came upon to the town of baldwin which was set afire by retreating black union troops that had left in wagons about 1/2 hour earlier anmd thatthey chased to catch them and did so --in his account the union soldier surrendered and the confedrates had a fine meal using the goods in the wagon at "harts" farm ( althought the dates are a bit fuzzty in the old mans mind --since the story was recorded a few weeks before he died in 1929 (65 years after the events took place) --it is the story its self that is of the main interest --it shows that some of the leading confederate calvary troops did in fact catch up with the rear units of the union forces as they withdraw form baldwin topwards jacksonville on the rail road line -- thus help to support my postion in this matter --who better to know than those who were there as to what really occurred?

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

letter dated of march 3rd .1864 by a.j. clement Co. D independant battalion mass calvary -- on march 1st a man was killed (shot in the head ) during skirmishing at 10 mile station on the highway between jaclsonville and baldwin -

there was constant "small unit" type fighting , before , during and after the run up to olustee --- around the baldwin to jacklsonville area --as this was a hotly contested area always -- the rebels sought to keep the yankees bottled up in jacksonville and the yankees sought to do search and take or destroy raids upon the rebels forces and places where supplies were stored.

 

[truckinbutch]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

Ivan ,
The largest action during CW in my area was by "Grumble" Jones and gets few sentences in any journal . Little is said about how he stole
a thousand horses and fifteen hundred cattle from our impoverished region and drove them back through the mountains eastward for the benefit of R.E. Lee ......
Much less is documented of the pillaging his troops perpetrated in the region while stealing the livestock and the people they killed .
I hope you continue your quest and will help if I can .
Jim

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

you very miss the very point I'm trying to make *--which is very simple -- the union forces fleeing from the rebel troops at olustee (which was a very bad defeat) did so by marching thru out the night and the retreat was somewhat disorganized --- when the union troops got into baldwin they looted all the supplies they could from the town (which was well known to be southern freindly at the time )--and they set fiye to the rail road buildings and known southern supporters homes and bussiness as they left town (standard operating policy in these parts)

most of the confederate calvary did not chase after the union troops right after the battle since night was falling -- and telegraph wires had been strung up in the woods as booty traps -- in the darkness it was hard to tell freind from foes ( thus a "freindly" fire type event could happen)-- and they feared ambushes from rear guard units of the union forces protecting the rear

only a couple of companys of calvary were dispatched * "to strike a favorible blow whenever possible"-- the vast majority of the confederate calvary thus missed a chance to strike a telling blow to the retreating union forces --( A MAJOR BLUNDER FOR WHICH THERE WAS A LOT OF LOOKING INTO DONE)

the retreating union forces retired down the rail line running from baldwin toward jacksonville --its known today as "the rails to trails" bike way / hiking trail --the old rail bed was pulled up and paved over . but the route is well known and thus easy to "follow"--

the following morning after the battle of olustee was over --- the confederate calvary leaders were read the "riot" act by finegan and told to get after the union forces, from the personal account of lawrance jackson --it appears some of the confederate calvary forces did indeed catch up with the rear guard units or stragglers as they were fleeing towards jacksonville * ( in his "personal" account (he was there after all)--the union soldiers surrendered and the rebels had a fine breakfast from supplies in the union wagon at harts farm -- a few miles outside of jacksonville )--it is not unreasonible in my veiw to think that fast moving calvary units -- could catch up with tired foot soldiers that had been marched all night after a rough battle

as far as records go please think carefully -- if a small union unit of black soldiers became "detached" from the main body of the union army army upon them leaving the battlefeild of olustee ( they they were "stragglers" and they were later caught up with by confederate forces and wiped totally out ---who in the main army would "know" of it -- since they had lost all contact and no one lived to "report" what occured.

like a ship going down with all hands --there is no one left to tell the tale of what happened;

except the rebel calvarymen who wiped the black soldiers out and burnt the bodies afterwards that is -- not a "pround" moment in southern history -- so its unlikely to be recorded .by the doers
mai li was most likely not "well recorded" at the time until some one told of what occured --then it was very well recorded .indeed.

 

[Bill Battle]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (updat

you very miss the very point I'm trying to make *--which is very simple -- the union forces fleeing from the rebel troops at olustee (which was a very bad defeat) did so by marching thru out the night and the retreat was somewhat disorganized --- when the union troops got into baldwin they looted all the supplies they could from the town (which was well known to be southern freindly at the time )--and they set fiye to the rail road buildings and known southern supporters homes and bussiness as they left town (standard operating policy in these parts)

most of the confederate calvary did not chase after the union troops right after the battle since night was falling -- and telegraph wires had been strung up in the woods as booty traps -- in the darkness it was hard to tell freind from foes ( thus a "freindly" fire type event could happen)-- and they feared ambushes from rear guard units of the union forces protecting the rear

only a couple of companys of calvary were dispatched * "to strike a favorible blow whenever possible"-- the vast majority of the confederate calvary thus missed a chance to strike a telling blow to the retreating union forces --( A MAJOR BLUNDER FOR WHICH THERE WAS A LOT OF LOOKING INTO DONE)

the retreating union forces retired down the rail line running from baldwin toward jacksonville --its known today as "the rails to trails" bike way / hiking trail --the old rail bed was pulled up and paved over . but the route is well known and thus easy to "follow"--

the following morning after the battle of olustee was over --- the confederate calvary leaders were read the "riot" act by finegan and told to get after the union forces, from the personal account of lawrance jackson --it appears some of the confederate calvary forces did indeed catch up with the rear guard units or stragglers as they were fleeing towards jacksonville * ( in his "personal" account (he was there after all)--the union soldiers surrendered and the rebels had a fine breakfast from supplies in the union wagon at harts farm -- a few miles outside of jacksonville )--it is not unreasonible in my veiw to think that fast moving calvary units -- could catch up with tired foot soldiers that had been marched all night after a rough battle

as far as records go please think carefully -- if a small union unit of black soldiers became "detached" from the main body of the union army army upon them leaving the battlefeild of olustee ( they they were "stragglers" and they were later caught up with by confederate forces and wiped totally out ---who in the main army would "know" of it -- since they had lost all contact and no one lived to "report" what occured.

like a ship going down with all hands --there is no one left to tell the tale of what happened;

except the rebel calvarymen who wiped the black soldiers out and burnt the bodies afterwards that is -- not a "pround" moment in southern history -- so its unlikely to be recorded .by the doers
mai li was most likely not "well recorded" at the time until some one told of what occured --then it was very well recorded .indeed.

"except the rebel calvarymen who wiped the black soldiers out and burnt the bodies afterwards that is -- not a "pround" moment in southern history -- so its unlikely to be recorded .by the doers
mai li was most likely not "well recorded" at the time until some one told of what occured --then it was very well recorded indeed."

This is a pretty condemning statement to make when based only on conjecture and 150-years after the fact hearsay, not known facts.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

no just saying that the burning of the bodies would be a very good reason not to record the event in the "normal" battle report type mode -- bad things done out of spite or hate are seldom recorded by those doing the deed -- to the southern calvary mens credit --according to the tale they DID offer to allow the black union soldiers a chance to surrender safely upon the rebel troopers word of honor --not given likely in those days --the black infantry troopers reply deeply insulted the calvary men --saying your word of honor is worthless to us , we shall not SURRENDER------SO BE IT --SAID THE CALVARY MEN -- wiping them out -- for the insult to their honor they burnt the bodies rather than bury them as would be normally done. ---- at the time most southerners viewed union black soldiers merely as revolting southern slaves dressed in union uniforms and treated them accordingly .

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

the area around the spot this action is reported to have occured at is on the "Higginborham / Higgenbotham" farm along "jones" road *-- look on the confederate roster of company B of the florida 1st calvary in the civil war -- the "Jones" and the "Higgenbothams" are both listed as being in the unit ( parts of the Braddock family as well)-- thus if there these " union troops" were in the area they were in very "unfreindly territory" indeed--- this was not in main downtown jacksonville area were the pro union folks lived --this was the pro southern surrounding country side.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

camp milton was a confederate camp at the time

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

swt -- stop and think for a minute --you say 1 officer and 30 to 50 men could not possibly be "missing " and thus unaccounted for --- but according to the all important "records" of the union 506 of their were "missing" in action
---now granted a good bit of the "missing in action" were in fact "prisoners" taken by the rebels --- but until the union commanders were told by the rebel commanders that they were indeed "captured" and taken X amount of people prisoner --the union commanders had no clue of what really became of their troops now did they ? --they had no way of knowing if they were dead , prisoner or what until they were told by the confederate side--- now just for the sake of arguement ---**** what if a horrible deed had occured say they just marched off and shot say 30 to 50 black soldiers and buried the bodies after the barrle of olustee *** do you think the southerners would have been foolish enough to have recorded it being done ? -- and so the southern folks fearing counter measures would cover it up by just not reporting upon them at all (they would have just "dissappeared" into the gray fog of battle)-- how would the union commanders know about to record it? and of course the rebels surely would not have recorded it happening-- since it would be a war crime after all -- some things due to their highly ugly nature just were not "offically" recorded nicely like normal events were in my view.

if the two sides offical records "account for everyone so tightly" --where are the "missing men" ---since the numbers reported as taken prisoner and dead & buried by the confederates vs the number of known dead and mia by union forces leaves a very large gap of true MIA men

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

I 'm just trying to find some of the honestly MIA men from the battle of olustee or possibly around that rough general time frame , a old "deep dark family tale was told to me that has enough elements of historically valid people who lived in the area at the time of the civil war to be possible in my veiw--that could account for some of those missing men from olustee -- agreed its a odd and ugly story told by a older male family member who is by blood related to several former confederate calvarymen (so he is highly unlikely to want to smear the rebel cause troops honor without good reason --since the family is proud of the family's past military service with the south ) plus its said that the "event" occured upon their old family homestread during the civil war -- it might not have been a whole unit as such but a mixed lot of say 30 to 50 various stragglers in the tail of the column -- while I got a rough ideal of the area where things were supposed to have occured --and have been there in person--(most of the area is still farm land thankfully it seems -- the area is vast and without loand deeds to show which spot belonged to who -- its a near impossible task -- I'm hoping that the eldest member of the family can be of some help in knowing just which bit of land was the families "horse" farm at the time .

I speak ill of no one -- I do not judge the past actions of the southern troops-- according to the story as told to me ----safe terms of surrender were offered by the southern force to the union troops and were rejected by the union troops in a highly insulting method -- so if the southerners got a enemy force "pinned in" that refuses to surrender they are forced to wipe em out --no choice in the matter really -- and the act of insullting the rebel troopers "word of honor" and most likely harming or killing some of the rebels - in what they would view as the "needless" fighting that occured after terms were already offered --thus causing needless bloodshed in the veiw of the rebels which would most likely have enraged them -- leading to the burning of the already dead bodies -- in spite .

 

[ivan salis]

Re: found tip possible location of "missing " union patrol from civil war (update)

I can see some rather odd and somewhat twisted logic in your reply * knowing the times --losing a batch of badly needed horses to black union troopers would be rather "embarassing" to the southern soldiers (agreed ) so a revenge tale as as a sort of cover story for the shame was "brewed" up to "cover the loss"--- if some one brought up the "lost horses" the talk was shifted to the tale of the "dead union soldiers" is your veiw point -- ok I can deal with you thinking that.