Dutchman's Caches

[EDN]

EDN,
Perhaps you would be willing to elaborate some on your story for us?

Idahodutch,

I live in Gilbert, Arizona. I love exploring old mines and other cool places. I have also hunted for the Lost Dutchman mine. However, I don't think the mine is in the picture or place you posted. Like many, I use Google Earth to check out places before I go exploring or hiking. Google Earth's resolution is terrible for anything small. When I saw your picture, I was intrigued and found the place fairly easy. I hope you weren't offended. If the Lost Dutchman is in this area I hope you find it!!! I have some knee issues that likely need surgery this year. I am hoping to be out hiking in the next 3 to 6 months. I'm assuming you live in Idaho. What part? I grew up in Pocatello, but spent some time in Caldwell and Nampa. If your ever out here and want someone to hike with look let me know.

EDN

 

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[EDN]

Idahodutch,

Here are some other cool places.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...ater-north-river-whats-story-post6042092.html

I have been to the Crabtree Cabin and Stone Corral.

33°36'47.31"N, 111°20'9.69"W Stone Corral
33°36'47.69"N, 111°20'11.45"W Crabtree Family Trapping Cabin

If the story in the Holmes Manuscript is true, Dick Holmes took his son Brownie to this cabin, ran into a said to be trapper, and traveled from this place to Skull Cave where US Soldiers killed a large number of Indians.

33.580904°, -111.373987° Skull Cave

EDN

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch,

I live in Gilbert, Arizona. I love exploring old mines and other cool places. I have also hunted for the Lost Dutchman mine. However, I don't think the mine is in the picture or place you posted. Like many, I use Google Earth to check out places before I go exploring or hiking. Google Earth's resolution is terrible for anything small. When I saw your picture, I was intrigued and found the place fairly easy. I hope you weren't offended. If the Lost Dutchman is in this area I hope you find it!!! I have some knee issues that likely need surgery this year. I am hoping to be out hiking in the next 3 to 6 months. I'm assuming you live in Idaho. What part? I grew up in Pocatello, but spent some time in Caldwell and Nampa. If your ever out here and want someone to hike with look let me know.

EDN

EDN,
Thanks for the post The location is not a difficult one to get to . . or find. Not offended at all, glad you took the time to find it That general area on the West side was practically pounded to dust by boot and hoof back in the thick of it in the 60's and 70's. It is also where a good portion of the clues point (hence all the traffic). It is also one of the areas that was under private claim through the thick of that swarm of traffic. The best way into that ravine is by walking right past the claim marker on the east saddle. . . . another claim marker spray painted on a boulder in the bottom of the ravine . . . .
If the LDM is in that ravine, I never heard anything about it . . . or that of any big operation, or good find in that ravine either. But is was under claim for quite some time. Pretty much ever since that whole area had been scoured for decades, I can totally understand why the search expanded and other areas gained momentum. Different interpretations for the clues became more popular if many of the clues were still to be used.
I do find it extremely interesting that so many of the clues fall into place for this site. . (not forced in place) . . like way more than reasonably needed in order to get really excited about ; but the problem is . . everybody already searched there . . a lot . . (or were they forced to search around it? ).

I grew up in Phoenix, and lived in Payson (actually Gisela) and Prescott Valley (Actually Mayor) for a few years before moving to NW Oregon in Summer of '88. Just moved to Idaho 2 years and 3 days ago. Town of Payette - so far, so good

I hope your knee issue is improved. Being impaired sucks
When I was a kid, I used to think that Gilbert was somewhere over by Tucson, but nowhere near Phx. The Valley sure has filled in over the last 50 years. Thunderbird Park was way out in the Desert back then.

Thanks for the invite,
Idaho Dutch

 

[Doc4261]

Doc,
I need to ask, did you accidently post the wrong picture or was there something more you wanted to impress upon us about this one?
Hope your Christmas was good
Idahodutch

Right pic. Goes with the thought of this cave near by and how supposedly could get in and out in 1 day. Which would be a great feat if anywhere deep in the mntns. Do believe is might be closer than what most might think possibly. Who knows. Never have to impress no one but me, love the thrill of the hunt for whatever. Always keep a open mind. Always am amazed with something Evey time I go into the mntns.Like to share the things that make u go, huh. How did u like the cave pic I posted on the other thread. Def was carved out, not natural for sure. Look in the cave at the inside walls. Might see some things. I don't always point out the good stuff of the area, the people have to look so see what I'm really trying to show. Just the way I am. Happy new years to u also. Happy huntings for whatever one is looking for. View attachment 1786371

 

[Idahodutch]

Right pic. Goes with the thought of this cave near by and how supposedly could get in and out in 1 day. Which would be a great feat if anywhere deep in the mntns. Do believe is might be closer than what most might think possibly. Who knows. Never have to impress no one but me, love the thrill of the hunt for whatever. Always keep a open mind. Always am amazed with something Evey time I go into the mntns.Like to share the things that make u go, huh. How did u like the cave pic I posted on the other thread. Def was carved out, not natural for sure. Look in the cave at the inside walls. Might see some things. I don't always point out the good stuff of the area, the people have to look so see what I'm really trying to show. Just the way I am. Happy new years to u also. Happy huntings for whatever one is looking for. View attachment 1786371

Doc,
Thanks for coming back and sharing the pics of the cave are awesome! What a neat find. Every trip into those mountains, seems like an adventure. It's good that you take a camera along. I wish sometimes that I would have gotten into photography, at least enough to carry a camera of some sort along. Would've. . . Could've. . . Should've.
Enjoy the adventures
Idahodutch

 

[Doc4261]

Doc,
Thanks for coming back and sharing the pics of the cave are awesome! What a neat find. Every trip into those mountains, seems like an adventure. It's good that you take a camera along. I wish sometimes that I would have gotten into photography, at least enough to carry a camera of some sort along. Would've. . . Could've. . . Should've.
Enjoy the adventures
Idahodutch.


I'm smart enough to photo and video as much as possible, cuz my mind can't comprehend what I'm looking at till afterward most times or I would of missed all.my good finds. I was about to give up on my arra. It's the review of the pics that make me say "I ain't done yet" lol

 

[EDN]

Idahodutch,

What's your thoughts about the stories told in the Holmes Manuscript? The reason I'm asking is one of the stories says that, the Dutchman and his nephew left the mine and stopped that night at hidden water. If the story is true, I don't see how they could have traveled from the location your hunting to Hidden Water. That is some ruff terrain, even on pack mules. On another account, when Dick Holmes was trailing the Dutchman he left hidden water in the morning and it was almost nightfall when Dick Holmes noticed him waiting for him around Tortilla Flat. This is one of the reasons I don't think the spot our looking is the location of the Dutchman's mine. It would be cool to find the caches. I suspect those would be near the mine or where he was crushing or cobbling the gold ore. Do you know where Hidden Water is? Have you been there?

EDN

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch,

What's your thoughts about the stories told in the Holmes Manuscript? The reason I'm asking is one of the stories says that, the Dutchman and his nephew left the mine and stopped that night at hidden water. If the story is true, I don't see how they could have traveled from the location your hunting to Hidden Water. That is some ruff terrain, even on pack mules. On another account, when Dick Holmes was trailing the Dutchman he left hidden water in the morning and it was almost nightfall when Dick Holmes noticed him waiting for him around Tortilla Flat. This is one of the reasons I don't think the spot our looking is the location of the Dutchman's mine. It would be cool to find the caches. I suspect those would be near the mine or where he was crushing or cobbling the gold ore. Do you know where Hidden Water is? Have you been there?

EDN

Hello EDN,
On the Holmes Manuscript, I have read bits and blips of it is all. I would not call that reading it. I wouldn't mind reading it, but just haven't. I have no excuse to offer.
I am not convinced that the Dutchman had a nephew. Verdict is still out for me on that one.
I believe that there is truth to the story of Dick Holmes trailing Waltz, but I can't rule out if there is also some fiction.
I don't believe that I have been to Hidden Water, and if the name was written down on a map, I could probably find it but not otherwise with doing some homework.
As far as I know, Holmes never found the mine. I do believe that he got his hands on some of the ore from under Waltz' bed.

Now the Caches, I don't think the ones that the Dutchman left are still there, but I really think that the guy that quietly worked his claim in that ravine for 10 - 15 years and got tired of it, that the caches that he left and made a map to , pointing them out, may still be. I also do not believe the mine has been played out. What was it Waltz said, enough gold to make 20 men millionaires . . or something along that line . . . Any operation or workings on the mine after Waltz, was small imo, and nowhere near 20 1890 millionaires worth. Problem is, it would have to be dug out, and it is a wilderness area.

I still like the legend of the Lost Dutchman gold mine. Maybe one day, it wont be a federal government controlled wilderness area anymore. Who knows
I don't know if that helps or not

Thanks for asking EDN, I took it as an undeserved compliment
Idaho Dutch

 

[Idahodutch]

EDN,
I was going to be reading something else tonight, but came across a copy of the Holmes Manuscript. I see why you were asking the questions you were asking. I did not read all of it . . . .I was having a difficult time buying into the delivery of the story. I don't know exactly how to describe it . . . . but . . for someone wanting to get stuff off their chest, and is anxious because "not much time left", there sure seems to be an abundance of little side bits to the story. Extra details that don't matter. Some sounded like something Waltz may have told Holmes, but others don't sound like the same Waltz. Maybe it is all a true account. My gut feeling is that the intent was to mix in enough "stuff" thinking it would make the story more believable or something.

I guess I am having a hard time believing that Holmes didn't have to ask Waltz to elaborate on anything, other than is all the gold gone.

Edit - there was a lot more on this post but lost it.
Anyway not trying to step on anyone's beliefs, it is just my opinion and once in a while it can change.

Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Here is another possibility, the Holmes manuscript is flawed to the point where it may be all made up, which is the conclusion of more researchers besides myself.

Alan,
I hadn't really did much investigating of the Holmes manuscript, but the little bit that I've looked at recently seems to reveal some funny business going on. Wordings of some of the clues between versions of the manuscript, have some differences that change meaning. I think some parts of certain versions are good. But here we are, picking and choosing clues again. Unfortunately it seems like another aspect of the game to muddle through. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Got Glover's new book and had just started reading it when I kind of got sidetracked on Holmes manuscript. I wonder if after finishing it, any of my views will have changed. So far a lot of interesting back stories. . . I am liking the read and going to see where it goes.
It's cold here, down in the teens last night. At least the sun is shining.
Idaho Dutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Glover's Book

So I got back to reading Glover's new book I recently got. (Thanks again Potbelly Jim for posting that thread)
I am really enjoying the read. The documentation is incredible.
Just a little over 100 pages in and I got to say. The chapter on the Peraltas is very good.

As time allows, I'll continue . . but for now, the things I read only have provided more support to the conclusions I have concerning this ravine as being the location of the LDM.
I always believed that the Peraltas we in the Superstitions and the ones involved in the massacre, so I won't tell you the rest, except that Glover did some excellent research.

Let the chips fall where they may!
Idaho Dutch

 

[Idahodutch]

So I got back to reading Glover's new book I recently got. (Thanks again Potbelly Jim for posting that thread)
I am really enjoying the read. The documentation is incredible.
Just a little over 100 pages in and I got to say. The chapter on the Peraltas is very good.

As time allows, I'll continue . . but for now, the things I read only have provided more support to the conclusions I have concerning this ravine as being the location of the LDM.
I always believed that the Peraltas we in the Superstitions and the ones involved in the massacre, so I won't tell you the rest, except that Glover did some excellent research.

Let the chips fall where they may!
Idaho Dutch

I first got interested in the LDM as a youth. During the middle of the school year, a family moved in down the street from us when I was 9. A regular family with 4 kids. The oldest boy was same age as me.
In school the next day, my teacher sent me to the office , that there was a new kid and he was assigned to be in our class. It was the same kid that just moved in down the street. His dad was a pretty serious Dutch Hunter.
I was like a sponge, and loved to listed to him tell me about it. I remember him telling me that there were (9) Peralta mines in the Superstitions. There were (8) that were ok, but the last one, the 9th one, was the LDM.
He told me a lot more than about the Peraltas. As time went on, the trips to the Supers that included my friends Dad pretty much stopped happening. He was getting on and had a bum leg to boot. When we could drive ourselves, My friend and I started to go again, and then it was just me and whoever I could get to go with me. Once in a while he would make it though.
I still talk with that kid that moved in down the street, from time to time. He still lives in the Phoenix area, but is East of Mesa. He sends pics sometimes of the hikes he does (usually the Supers) and of things he has found in there.
He went with me and 2 of my sons back in 08'. He went looking over at his spot, while me and my kids went over to collect samples and for me to look at this ravine some more.
It was back at his house that the samples were smelted, and it was confirmed that there is gold dust at least, present in Needle Canyon, most the way up, and is present down past this ravine.
I never got samples from East Boulder Canyon, but am sure that there is dust that would be present there as well, starting around Palomino and then on down from there, but perhaps not as much as Needle Canyon. I was told that the Peraltas came up the Salt and followed the gold through Boulder Canyon and surrounded Black Top Mesa with mines with maybe one or two on the West side of Bluff Springs. The samples we collected verified at least part of that route. (Why I say, I am pretty sure that some would be present in East Bolder.)
One of the things of interest about the samples, is that there was none in the samples that collected from a little ways below the falls at the North end of Bluff Springs Mnt., to where it ties in to Needle Canyon.

There have been plenty of guys say there is no way there is any gold in the West search area. I got tired of hearing their BS and decided to find out for myself.
Then I have heard some guys say that you can find gold dust, just about anywhere. Sorry, not enough to make the small beads of gold in those small samples we smelted. Each one, two or three small beads, then the samples from below the ravine, two or three times as much from each of those samples.
Folks can believe what they want, but sooner or later, the chips are going to fall in place where they will. Maybe it won't be this ravine. . . but maybe it will.

 

[Idahodutch]

The Story had some mystery

There is a part of the story that I left out. After scratching off the first 2 spots, I got a clean topo map and marked it up for this area in Needle Canyon. I went to my friend's dad, and made a presentation (for lack of better word) about my findings and conclusions. I talked to him about taking another trip in there and see what this potential site really looks like.
This was, I think late summer of 1980; but the point is there was no internet. Topo maps was it.
Well, he was very interested in everything, but wasn't sure on a trip. We visited a bit more, then picked up my map and put it away when I got Home. It was maybe a couple of months, at most, I went to get the map and it was gone. I never did find the map. I got side tracked for a couple of years, and then heard that my friends dad filed a claim in there, but the ravine must have already been claimed up for some time, he filed just West of it I believe.

I didn't get my heart back for the hunt, until late 90s I think.
Eventually made the trip in 2008 from Oregon.
Just below is a view of the Needle Canyon ravine, looking south into it. The canyon floor you see at the bottom is Needle Canyon.
Bobs claim, I think was just to the right of this view.



Coming down from the saddle on the east ridge, there look to be what is left of a couple workings. But starting just left of dead center of the ravine, looks like what might be old, brush covered material dump from perhaps a mine, and then going on down. There appear to be several spots around that dump pile (if that is what it is) old workings perhaps at the top of that dump pile, to the right, to the lower right, to the left, just up above the pile, appear to be some more.

So I don't know, but perhaps like Markmar has been saying, that the Gonzales mine, Two Soldiers, LDM etc. are in this vicinity or multiple anyway, but I cannot speak for him.
Idaho Dutch

 

[markmar]

Idahodutch

Like I wrote, the debris in your ravine is from a mine in the vicinity, a very rich gold mine. This mine is not the Gonzalez , nor the LDM.

 

[Idahodutch]

Applying some clues to the Ravine

Idahodutch

Like I wrote, the debris in your ravine is from a mine in the vicinity, a very rich gold mine. This mine is not the Gonzalez , nor the LDM.

Markmar,
I have always tried to keep in mind that the clues will need to be lining up if the spot is right.
Here is a view of the ravine that I have marked up with some things that have been verified (blue) as well as some things that have not (red)

View attachment 1803246

Idaho Dutch

 

[Idahodutch]

On the previous post, I replaced the PDF with a JPEG, so it shows up now.
Sorry about that
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

truth be told most of the serious dutch hunters in the superstitions wern't really dutch hunters...they were treasure hunters looking for different treasures that are rumored to be stashed in there....what makes you think you have a mine in the ravine?....the samples you speak of...are they rocks or placer gravel?

Dave,
It was sort of a long story, but clues that gave multiple directions laying out the paths more than anything else. A path to the ravine from the South and a different path to the same ravine from the North. They both lead to this ravine.
Perhaps those directional clues also lead to a different location that fits like this one does, but that is kind of asking a lot.

I didn't like giving you the short answer before, but to really explain why, at that time, would have been a very long post.
Idaho Dutch

 

[Idahodutch]

?? The LDM Ravine ??

It’s been an interesting year and half since joining TNet and starting this thread ..... a year since I last posted on it.
I want to share something about the LDM clues, which ones I used and why.
Not saying others aren’t good ones, but these are the ones I went with with ...

I started off learning the clues associated with Bicknells article, as a youth in the early 1970’s.
I am not sure of exactly where we got the clue about the Red Hills, but learned it as important.

This is primarily all I had until going to the Phoenix library, around 1977/78, where came across stories . . lots of stories and of clues supposedly associated with LDM.

I held onto Bicknells stuff, and red hills .... and plotted out on a topo, until had things narrowed down to only a few possibles (from topo perspective). Almost all other clues and stories I was reading, did not have enough information to plot out onto a map, .... were more like a bunch of blips of info, vague.

Got down to the last of the possible locations I wanted to check, but life got busy .... it would be over 25 years before I would make it to check out the last spot. In mean time had moved out of AZ, and was living in Oregon.
By then, had heard enough about things from the Holmes Manuscript, and applied it to the last location .... it actually fit for getting to the same spot. I got excited and planned a trip.
The Holmes Manuscript, besides giving directions to the ravine site, also has a clue to verify if the Ravine is correct ravine ...
That clue is the one about the view of Four Peaks, as one peak, from the low ridge above the ravine. Very specific approach matched but had to go boots on the ground to actually see the view.

This was a very doable verification for me, and a chance to take by two younger boys, who were teenagers at the time, on a trip into the Superstitions. We went in over spring break.
They helped be collect samples from up and down needle canyon (to test presence of gold) ... collected quite a few. The other objective was to go up through the saddle, onto the high point of the low ridge above the ravine, and look to the North, and see what can be seen.

I got lucky guys, this is the correct spot according to the clues.
The clues from Bicknells, and from Holmes, ..... were both good enough to locate this ravine. And it has the Four Peaks viewable as 1 peak, just like it says.

There are other mines out there, and I have no doubt that there are clues that have been mixed in.
However, I think the clues from these two sources were for the LDM. BTW Red Hills clue does not do much unless taken in along with everything else. Still like the clue though...kind of lets you know you are closer than you were before seeing them

There is something I want to ask about, something that I noticed about a week ago, in that ravine ... but I need to spend just a little more time with it first. It is a good question, and I think you guys will enjoy it. I 'll work on it tomorrow and see if can get it together.

In the mean time,
Something to look at ... looking south . . . .
saddle is on the left and ties in with the low ridge.

 

[Idahodutch]

Inside of the ravine there is a spot that looks very suspicious to me, because it looks like it may be the site of a camp.
It is difficult to see.
The first image is just of the ravine, but I added a Red Elipse surrounding the spot in question ... for location reference.




The next three images are all of the same spot zoomed in, but are from 3 different years to help with vegetation and shadows comparisons.
Red Eleipses have been added to show the zoomed in spots.







I had not noticed this little spot until recently, and found it interesting. The part inside of the shaded area, looks like could maybe be multiple rooms or areas?

 

[azdave35]

Inside of the ravine there is a spot that looks very suspicious to me, because it looks like it may be the site of a camp.
It is difficult to see.
The first image is just of the ravine, but I added a Red Elipse surrounding the spot in question ... for location reference.

View attachment 1913492


The next three images are all of the same spot zoomed in, but are from 3 different years to help with vegetation and shadows comparisons.
Red Eleipses have been added to show the zoomed in spots.

View attachment 1913493

View attachment 1913494

View attachment 1913495

I had not noticed this little spot until recently, and found it interesting. The part inside of the shaded area, looks like could maybe be multiple rooms or areas?

i dont know dutch..all i see is green and brown