Dutchman's Caches

[azdave35]

azdave,

You are so right Dave. Idahodutch should understand that the Harnish brothers were in the Superstitions back in 1960. Those days, the 60's through the 80's were a different time and a different place the newer dutch hunters could hardly understand or even imagine. Permanent camps everywhere, fights and disputes over numerous claims, everybody armed to the teeth.

Hank Harnish had claims as far back as 1963, not all in the same place and his MO was to blanket an area to keep others away. That causes a problem because many claims mean many yearly assessments. Harnish used investors much like Crazy Jake did. He got hauled into court in Phoenix for scamming people but got off when no one would testify against him. He even had the old Apache Junction radio station, KSTM 107.1 FM run adds for his investment opportunities.

The Harnish brothers were all over the mountains between 1960 and 1990, their main area was LaBarge and Picacho canyon but they spent many years in other areas and hired many down and outers to work and guard those claims.

I ran afoul of Hank and his brother on several occasions, never came to actual gun fire but only by a hair or two.

Idaho dutch should not assume things but should learn the history of the people and times for the areas he is interested in.

if dutch or anyone else for that matter would like to know what the supers were like in the 60's and 70's they should locate an old film by robert lee....it is a documentary spanning 14 years (from 1960 to 1974)....he visits alot of the miners camps in the film including ed piper and the harnish camp....also nice footage of apache junction and the supers before all the knotheads arrived

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

if dutch or anyone else for that matter would like to know what the supers were like in the 60's and 70's they should locate an old film by robert lee....it is a documentary spanning 14 years (from 1960 to 1974)....he visits alot of the miners camps in the film including ed piper and the harnish camp....also nice footage of apache junction and the supers before all the knotheads arrived

azdave,....that Lee documentary film is great and was on the internet a few years back. It still doesn't do justice to what it was like because most in the film were on their best behavior and not themselves when drunk or paranoid over someone near their claim.

I hope Idaho finds what he is looking for.

 

[Idahodutch]

Where on the map does it say "oro 17" ?

View attachment 1913990

For me, I don't consider the map genuine.
More likely made by someone who merely thought they knew where it was, IMO. I seriously doubt JW would have used the word "oro", or even said it while giving directions to the person who did.

Somehiker,
There is the main portion of map, on top, and the smaller sections that seems to be a zooming in.
It is in the section of zoomed in stuff. In particular - 0RD (arrow shape) 17
I see that as direction, and perhaps distance.

Can’t tel if Oro or ORD

Like I said I’m not a decoder, but if I go to the main area of map and then see what that is pointing to, and compare to the ravine. It points to just about that spot I was asking about.

I found it easiest to view the ravine while looking at the map.
This isn’t one of those picture with hidden animal that only if stare long enough, but if you start looking at this, you will all of sudden see how map works. Hard to explain.

I blew this off too first time I looked at it. Was many years before looking again.
Be careful Wayne, if you do see it, good luck getting others to see it .... it is an interesting map. And I don’t think Waltz made it either.

 

[Idahodutch]

azdave,

You are so right Dave. Idahodutch should understand that the Harnish brothers were in the Superstitions back in 1960. Those days, the 60's through the 80's were a different time and a different place the newer dutch hunters could hardly understand or even imagine. Permanent camps everywhere, fights and disputes over numerous claims, everybody armed to the teeth.

Hank Harnish had claims as far back as 1963, not all in the same place and his MO was to blanket an area to keep others away. That causes a problem because many claims mean many yearly assessments. Harnish used investors much like Crazy Jake did. He got hauled into court in Phoenix for scamming people but got off when no one would testify against him. He even had the old Apache Junction radio station, KSTM 107.1 FM run adds for his investment opportunities.

The Harnish brothers were all over the mountains between 1960 and 1990, their main area was LaBarge and Picacho canyon but they spent many years in other areas and hired many down and outers to work and guard those claims.

I ran afoul of Hank and his brother on several occasions, never came to actual gun fire but only by a hair or two.

Idaho dutch should not assume things but should learn the history of the people and times for the areas he is interested in.

And you are helping with that by sharing.
Thank you Matthew for sharing that.

I don’t think Harnish would be the type to make the Waltz map, to leave anything for next guy.
But someone naming a claim, directly below the 4-peaks as one view.... the name of “Finally” just might.

 

[Idahodutch]

azdave,....that Lee documentary film is great and was on the internet a few years back. It still doesn't do justice to what it was like because most in the film were on their best behavior and not themselves when drunk or paranoid over someone near their claim.

I hope Idaho finds what he is looking for. I can't count the number of newcomers who I have helped with information about areas in those mountains. A lot of times I have found the Dutch hunter is his own worst enemy because he could learn so much from the old timers but refuses to.

I hope you find what you are looking for too Matthew.
I do not control the sharing of old timers. Lumping me in with those that refuse to learn ... I think the subject matter is just stirring emotions perhaps.

If you have not seen the view of Four Peaks, from up there, you should go see it.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[azdave35]

azdave,....that Lee documentary film is great and was on the internet a few years back. It still doesn't do justice to what it was like because most in the film were on their best behavior and not themselves when drunk or paranoid over someone near their claim.

I hope Idaho finds what he is looking for. I can't count the number of newcomers who I have helped with information about areas in those mountains. A lot of times I have found the Dutch hunter is his own worst enemy because he could learn so much from the old timers but refuses to.

yes the film was edited and alot of good parts didnt make the cut...and there was some b.s. and embellishing...in the film lee states that he found jay clapps body but tom k said no....but it has some great 16mm footage...overall i thought he did pretty good for an amateur

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Idahodutch,

I certainly do not lump you in with any group and never meant to. I feel you are a serious dutch hunter and only wish the best for you in your searching. The search today in 2021 has its own hazards and pitfalls.

Matthew

 

[Idahodutch]

The good news, or perhaps maybe good news; in looking at cache locations called out on Waltz map, the spot I asked about, it does not look like what would be the mine site, so if was found, maybe just 1 cache gone now. The mine seems to be out of the probing and digging area that was done .. by Harnish maybe.


Maybe Harnish didn’t find anything hardly at all from that ravine. If he would have found it, I think we would all have read about it.

 

[azdave35]

The good news, or perhaps maybe good news; in looking at cache locations called out on Waltz map, just the spot I asked about, does not look like what would be the mine site, so if was found, maybe just 1 cache gone now. The mine seems to be out of the probing and digging area that was done .. by Harnish maybe.


Maybe Harnish didn’t find anything hardly at all from that ravine. If he would have found it, I think we would all have read about it.

if your spot is on the s.e. end of black top...that area has been blasted from stem to stern...and every square inch covered by dozens of different groups of treasure hunters...if there was anything there it is more than likely covered by tons of debris from idiots tearing up the area

 

[Idahodutch]

if your spot is on the s.e. end of black top...that area has been blasted from stem to stern...and every square inch covered by dozens of different groups of treasure hunters...if there was anything there it is more than likely covered by tons of debris from idiots tearing up the area

Dave,
This is in Needle Canyon.

 

[Idahodutch]

Somehiker,
There is the main portion of map, on top, and the smaller sections that seems to be a zooming in.
It is in the section of zoomed in stuff. In particular - 0RD (arrow shape) 17
I see that as direction, and perhaps distance.

Can’t tel if Oro or ORD

Like I said I’m not a decoder, but if I go to the main area of map and then see what that is pointing to, and compare to the ravine. It points to just about that spot I was asking about.

I found it easiest to view the ravine while looking at the map.
This isn’t one of those picture with hidden animal that only if stare long enough, but if you start looking at this, you will all of sudden see how map works. Hard to explain.

I blew this off too first time I looked at it. Was many years before looking again.
Be careful Wayne, if you do see it, good luck getting others to see it .... it is an interesting map. And I don’t think Waltz made it either.

Wayne,
It is sort of like a topo, except almost all contour lines are not there, and the one you do see, are not set to a constant elevation. It also has some perspective, so is not to scale.

with surrounding landscape shapes to confirm, the field location comes together.
It’s a weird one, that’s for sure.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Idaho dutch,

The Waltz map was surely not drawn by Jacob Waltz. The Mesa, mountains and surrounding hills are drawn far to exactly. Only a map maker that had been completely around all those mountains could have drawn it that exactly in the late 1800s.
It looks very similar to drawings Barry Storm made.
Would you please take the map and add a north arrow to it for me ? There is something not right about the geography of this map. Thank you.
Matthew

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
Very good point. Definitely my bad
Give me a few minutes, and I’ll edit this post with it.


Edit:



That's pretty close there.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,
Very good point. Definitely my bad
Give me a few minutes, and I’ll edit this post with it.


Edit:

View attachment 1914137

That's pretty close there.

Thanks Idaho dutch, that helps immensely.
Now if you would, please put a north arrow or somehow indicate north on the photo of the ravine area.
The ravine area is an excellent side canyon to explore. Even though others have worked there before, it is a big area and nobody can cover every square foot of it. There are at least 3 open shafts in that area. Who dug them and when is anyone's guess. Bill Fowler and George Pierce were up there working on Harnish's claim when I was up there but I swung wide of them and didn't take in everything they were working, times being what they were. They may have been following previous digging on that mountain.

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
The view is looking into the ravine from the north.
I’ll take a look... and get back.

 

[Idahodutch]

Inside of the ravine there is a spot that looks very suspicious to me, because it looks like it may be the site of a camp.
It is difficult to see.
The first image is just of the ravine, but I added a Red Elipse surrounding the spot in question ... for location reference.

View attachment 1913492


The next three images are all of the same spot zoomed in, but are from 3 different years to help with vegetation and shadows comparisons.
Red Eleipses have been added to show the zoomed in spots.

View attachment 1913493

View attachment 1913494

View attachment 1913495

I had not noticed this little spot until recently, and found it interesting. The part inside of the shaded area, looks like could maybe be multiple rooms or areas?

Matthew,
These images are through GE, and the scale and compass point are shown in lower right corner of images.
I was trying a different tool on GE to produce the images above.

Was it a different image you were interested in, before these?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Idahodutch,

Yes, thank you, that helps orient things much better.

Here is what I remember about that ravine and keep in mind it was 27 years ago.

Fowler and Pierce had their camp down at the mouth of that ravine where it emptied into the creek. There are some deep pools of water there that hold well into the late summer.

Your red circle is about 200 - 250 feet above their camp and right in the ravine drainage.

The men were digging about 100 feet straight above the red circle and about 100 - 200 feet up that steep draw to the upper right.

I went up that ravine to the left of your red circle and don't recall anything there but had no reference to examine that spot so it doesn't mean that nothing is there.

I was more interested in Fowler and Pierce and noted several monuments marking claims.

I went up over the saddle at the top to the left and dropped down the other side. I noticed one open shaft on the upper part of that ravine and saw what appeared two other dumps I assumed were shafts also.

Sometime in 84 I talked with Fowler in Cave Creek briefly but he was closed lip about his dealings with Harnish. It was something like a year or two later I heard he was killed by lightning somewhere in Needle canyon while working for Harnish. Harnish kept all his previous mine claims he had before the December 31, 1983 withdrawal of all mining in the wilderness area. Fowler and Pierce were out there doing work to prove up the previous claims when both were struck in a thunderstorm. Pierce survived, Fowler died instantly.

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
Up on that saddle, just west a little from the dip in the crest of the saddle, is, or was a dozen years ago, a monument, that I thought was probably a claim marker, but only saw one. Was Harnish eventually forced to give up his claims?

Both that ravine, straight above that red circle, that veers slightly right,
and the steep draw, at the west base of the large outcropping, Separating the two areas ....
Those two areas have been of interest, .... places I wanted to crawl around in.
Always thought a cache, on the saddle side, but just down a little, was a handy location, for some somewhat concealed retrieval.

Up all the way in that draw on the right, to where the face of the low ridge starts, is also an area I would want to check out.

As a side note:
Those peculiar looking large rocks, on the right side of the draw, almost at top of draw, ...... can’t tell if their shapes, are natural or not. Are they GE illusion, or was the one, a statue of some sort, other rock looks like big shield.
Probably just some big rocks, but is peculiar to me.

Too bad we don’t know what the stuff looked like that those two gathered up from there.

 

[azdave35]

Matthew,
Up on that saddle, just west a little from the dip in the crest of the saddle, is, or was a dozen years ago, a monument, that I thought was probably a claim marker, but only saw one. Was Harnish eventually forced to give up his claims?

Both that ravine, straight above that red circle, that veers slightly right,
and the steep draw, at the west base of the large outcropping, Separating the two areas ....
Those two areas have been of interest, .... places I wanted to crawl around in.
Always thought a cache, on the saddle side, but just down a little, was a handy location, for some somewhat concealed retrieval.

Up all the way in that draw on the right, to where the face of the low ridge starts, is also an area I would want to check out.

As a side note:
Those peculiar looking large rocks, on the right side of the draw, almost at top of draw, ...... can’t tell if their shapes, are natural or not. Are they GE illusion, or was the one, a statue of some sort, other rock looks like big shield.
Probably just some big rocks, but is peculiar to me.

Too bad we don’t know what the stuff looked like that those two gathered up from there.

dutch...everyone was forced to give up their claims in 84....a select few were able to hold onto their claims for a short while but 84 was the last year for claims...in 1974 the govt gave us 10 years to find the ldm..at the end of that 10 years everyone had to give up their claims and no future claims were permitted

 

[Idahodutch]

dutch...everyone was forced to give up their claims in 84....a select few were able to hold onto their claims for a short while but 84 was the last year for claims...in 1974 the govt gave us 10 years to find the ldm..at the end of that 10 years everyone had to give up their claims and no future claims were permitted

Thats good to know.
That’s what I thought, but strange one marker was still up there.
The others that Matthew saw, must have been taken down
Why not the one that’s left?