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Dutchman's Caches

Idahodutch said:
Well, I am glad the steam kettle got moved off of the stove, I didn't know if it was going to boil over or not. ??? :dontknow:

Even if someone interprets the term 'Lined Up' as say 'Looks As' or 'Looks Like', it is still a rare occurrence.
This does bring up a good point. . . the part I was saying as fact, was when look to the North, 4-Peaks look like 1 peak. (the reality is, all that is visible, is 1-peak at that spot, because the rest are obscured from view :blackbeard:.) That is what can be viewed from that spot when looking north. Does that mean that this ravine is it. . . no. It's the accumulation of a lot of clues that makes it compelling for me.
Idahodutch
Click to expand...
Your post is very clear, if more of the clues were made in that manner, I think the mine would have been found by now.
 

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In all honesty the almost SAME exact legends exist in areas all over the country. From the Waterhouse Treasure, to..

"Within 10 minutes of Toccoa, Georgia is a pile of gold nuggets in a cave. Taken to the pile by an old Cherokee whom he befriended, a bus driver on the Atlanta to Charlotte run picked up as many nuggets as he could carry with the permission of his Cherokee friend. 10 minutes later he was dropped in front of the Toccoa bus station. Blindfolded on the way in and out, the driver spent his off-hours looking for the cave for the rest of his life to no avail."

To Swifts Ledge and its comparisons and similarities to Wagoners Gold Ledge. To the Two Soldiers and the Lost Shults mine here Appalachia:

SHULTS DIES AND THE MINE IS LOST
What became of Shults’s mine? No one can say for sure. To elude potential robbers, Perry never revealed where his secret mine was hidden. Whenever he visited the operation, he would take a different trail in case someone was following him. This secrecy ended up backfiring, because when Shults had a stroke later in life, he was unable to describe to his wife where his coins were buried.

In 1967, a man named Walt Rice purchased Shults’s home and came across a clay pot in his garden filled with gold and silver coins valued at $37,000. This set off a flurry of speculation among treasure hunters who were eager to get their hands on the rest of Shults’s fortune. During the 60s, it wasn’t uncommon for folks who lived in the Greenbrier area to claim that they had a map (or half a map) of the Shults mine. Some unscrupulous con men would sell pieces of the alleged map to anyone who was desperate enough to pay for it."

Sound familiar?

Dusty
 

Idahodutch said:
Well, I am glad the steam kettle got moved off of the stove, I didn't know if it was going to boil over or not. ??? :dontknow:

Even if someone interprets the term 'Lined Up' as say 'Looks As' or 'Looks Like', it is still a rare occurrence.
This does bring up a good point. . . the part I was saying as fact, was when look to the North, 4-Peaks look like 1 peak. (the reality is, all that is visible, is 1-peak at that spot, because the rest are obscured from view :blackbeard:.) That is what can be viewed from that spot when looking north. Does that mean that this ravine is it. . . no. It's the accumulation of a lot of clues that makes it compelling for me.
Idahodutch
Click to expand...

I was sitting outside and thinking about the accumulation of clues and then about rest of that particular clue . . about after looking to the North, at the 4-Peak(s) view, then look in opposite direction, off in distance a peak with a hole thru it. I was thinking that maybe in the late afternoon sun, little bit before sunset, it might illuminate the hole in Palomino somewhat, which maybe would make the observance much easier, or more noticeable perhaps. I have camped in East Boulder and got to see the hole somewhat lit up, but I wasn't looking for it many years later, when I was up on the ravine's ridge.

What a bummer because . . .
. . . . the line of sight looks good
. . . . the angle to be able to tell it is a hole, looks good
. . . . perhaps especially when the sun is in the right position. . . .

Sounds like an old movie or something, but it got me wondering what time (or times) of year would provide the best viewing opportunity to see?
I am not an astrologist, but IDK . . maybe first part of April and again maybe first part of September?

Who knows. . maybe someday, I make it back in there. . . It would be good to go at the right time of year. . . so, why not ask you guys?
Idahodutch
 

Idahodutch said:
I was sitting outside and thinking about the accumulation of clues and then about rest of that particular clue . . about after looking to the North, at the 4-Peak(s) view, then look in opposite direction, off in distance a peak with a hole thru it. I was thinking that maybe in the late afternoon sun, little bit before sunset, it might illuminate the hole in Palomino somewhat, which maybe would make the observance much easier, or more noticeable perhaps. I have camped in East Boulder and got to see the hole somewhat lit up, but I wasn't looking for it many years later, when I was up on the ravine's ridge.

What a bummer because . . .
. . . . the line of sight looks good
. . . . the angle to be able to tell it is a hole, looks good
. . . . perhaps especially when the sun is in the right position. . . .

Sounds like an old movie or something, but it got me wondering what time (or times) of year would provide the best viewing opportunity to see?
I am not an astrologist, but IDK . . maybe first part of April and again maybe first part of September?

Who knows. . maybe someday, I make it back in there. . . It would be good to go at the right time of year. . . so, why not ask you guys?
Idahodutch
Click to expand...

My opinion is April and first half of May. The best season for the miners/prospectors from Waltz era. Mild weather and a lot of water and grass.
Also the most Mexican maps for the mines in the Superstitions were made in April. Fall spring was/is the period the Apache made their sacred ceremonies at a certain spot in the Superstitions. Waltz mine was/is in a remote place difficult to see from the canyon floor, but unfortunatelly was/is in the way to the place which the Apache used to worship. Maybe this was the reason Weiser ( and maybe Waltz ) was caught at the LDM.
 

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markmar said:
My opinion is April and first half of May. The best season for the miners/prospectors from Waltz era. Mild weather and a lot of water and grass.
Also the most Mexican maps for the mines in the Superstitions were made in April. Fall spring was/is the period the Apache made their sacred ceremonies at a certain spot in the Superstitions. Waltz mine was/is in a remote place difficult to see from the canyon floor, but unfortunatelly was/is in the way to the place which the Apache used to worship. Maybe this was the reason Weiser ( and maybe Waltz ) was caught at the LDM.
Click to expand...
Hello markmar,
I too think fall and spring, but I should clarify the question. I was asking about best time(s) of year to have the setting sun be somewhat illuminating the hole throu Palomino (Aylor's Arch). With sun rays shining somewhat into the Arch, it seems like it might be the sort of thing that that caught the Dutchman's attention, from that spot on the ridge of the ravine. I'm leaning towards, before spring starts, and after fall begins, just because that is when he would maybe be in there. Seems like with setting sun, in that Southernly position, might shine into the Arch with enough angle to light up the inside edges of the hole, lighting it up. The time I saw it from East Boulder, was sometime in the spring.
 

markmar said:
My opinion is April and first half of May. The best season for the miners/prospectors from Waltz era. Mild weather and a lot of water and grass.
Also the most Mexican maps for the mines in the Superstitions were made in April. Fall spring was/is the period the Apache made their sacred ceremonies at a certain spot in the Superstitions. Waltz mine was/is in a remote place difficult to see from the canyon floor, but unfortunatelly was/is in the way to the place which the Apache used to worship. Maybe this was the reason Weiser ( and maybe Waltz ) was caught at the LDM.
Click to expand...
Markmar, that is an interesting assessment as to perhaps why they were caught at the LDM. Isn't that supposed to be when/how his frying pan got the hole in it from an arrow? The pan would be an awesome find, but could be tough to authenticate previous ownership ��
 

Idahodutch said:
Hello markmar,
I too think fall and spring, but I should clarify the question. I was asking about best time(s) of year to have the setting sun be somewhat illuminating the hole throu Palomino (Aylor's Arch). With sun rays shining somewhat into the Arch, it seems like it might be the sort of thing that that caught the Dutchman's attention, from that spot on the ridge of the ravine. I'm leaning towards, before spring starts, and after fall begins, just because that is when he would maybe be in there. Seems like with setting sun, in that Southernly position, might shine into the Arch with enough angle to light up the inside edges of the hole, lighting it up. The time I saw it from East Boulder, was sometime in the spring.
Click to expand...

The best period for the setting sun to glitters through Aylor's arch is middle November to middle February when the sun setts south from the Superstition's North Peak. The other months setts north from the Peak with the summer's months to be impossible to go through the arch. In the spring, March and April is a chance to go through, shining in a SE direction.
IMO for your spot don't match the Waltz clue which says " the rays of the setting sun would glitter upon my gold through a fissure in the mountain ".
 

markmar said:
The best period for the setting sun to glitters through Aylor's arch is middle November to middle February when the sun setts south from the Superstition's North Peak. The other months setts north from the Peak with the summer's months to be impossible to go through the arch. In the spring, March and April is a chance to go through, shining in a SE direction.
IMO for your spot don't match the Waltz clue which says " the rays of the setting sun would glitter upon my gold through a fissure in the mountain ".
Click to expand...
Markmar, great job explaining your thoughts/reasons on Aylor's Arch. I think that is a good assessment. I am thinking that the clue about rays on his gold, was maybe not same time of year. With mine/ravine facing NW, that indicates a viewing time closer to Summer imo.
Thanks for your thoughts :icon_thumleft:
 

Idahodutch said:
Markmar, great job explaining your thoughts/reasons on Aylor's Arch. I think that is a good assessment. I am thinking that the clue about rays on his gold, was maybe not same time of year. With mine/ravine facing NW, that indicates a viewing time closer to Summer imo.
Thanks for your thoughts :icon_thumleft:
Click to expand...

From inside the ravine, neither 4-Peaks or Palomino can be viewed. It was from the spot on the ridge reached after going through the saddle near top of ravine. The other clue talked about what could be seen in the ravine - the sun glistening on his gold. I don't recall anything about being able to see both viewing situations on the same day. Or that they had to be? That would be important distinction. (Perhaps, but only if sun lit Arch was necessary to spot the arch from that spot on the ravine ridge)
 

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markmar said:
The best period for the setting sun to glitters through Aylor's arch is middle November to middle February when the sun setts south from the Superstition's North Peak. The other months setts north from the Peak with the summer's months to be impossible to go through the arch. In the spring, March and April is a chance to go through, shining in a SE direction.
IMO for your spot don't match the Waltz clue which says " the rays of the setting sun would glitter upon my gold through a fissure in the mountain ".
Click to expand...
Markmar, I like that you have taken into account, Superstition's North Peak. I am curious, since the winter solstice is around 12/21, howcome you have initial viewing 1 month before, yet 2 months after. Like I said, I am not an astronomy guy, but wouldn't the viewing window be about the same before as after the solstice? Like Nov to Jan, or Oct to Feb. maybe I am misunderstanding the specifics.
 

Idahodutch said:
Markmar, I like that you have taken into account, Superstition's North Peak. I am curious, since the winter solstice is around 12/21, howcome you have initial viewing 1 month before, yet 2 months after. Like I said, I am not an astronomy guy, but wouldn't the viewing window be about the same before as after the solstice? Like Nov to Jan, or Oct to Feb. maybe I am misunderstanding the specifics.
Click to expand...

Idahodutch

The window view of the arch is oriented about SW-NE. At the latitude of the arch, the sun setts in 21 December ( the most south position of the sunset ) at about 64 degrees S to W in the horizon at the desert level. But there we have the Superstition mountain which hide the desert level and make the sunset about 2 degrees sooner at about 62 degrees S to W and about 18 degrees to the west from the arch's window view axis.
Now, the Superstition's North Peak is about at 68 degrees S to W and about 23 degrees west from the arch. The sun change its position on the sky about 3 degrees per month. So I gave you the position of the sun from November ( I could say and October ) to February in regards to the North Peak because in that period the sun has the best angle to shine through the arch with a widest ray and a possibility to show something across on the Black Top Mesa.
I believe after April , if the sun would shine through the arch, the arch's window ray would shine almost on the East Bouder Canyon floor.
But IMO the Aylor's arch aka " Dark Circle " was not used from the Peraltas to mark a mine in colaboration with the sun but in colaboration with a specific constellation in the night time.
 

markmar said:
Idahodutch

The window view of the arch is oriented about SW-NE. At the latitude of the arch, the sun setts in 21 December ( the most south position of the sunset ) at about 64 degrees S to W in the horizon at the desert level. But there we have the Superstition mountain which hide the desert level and make the sunset about 2 degrees sooner at about 62 degrees S to W and about 18 degrees to the west from the arch's window view axis.
Now, the Superstition's North Peak is about at 68 degrees S to W and about 23 degrees west from the arch. The sun change its position on the sky about 3 degrees per month. So I gave you the position of the sun from November ( I could say and October ) to February in regards to the North Peak because in that period the sun has the best angle to shine through the arch with a widest ray and a possibility to show something across on the Black Top Mesa.
I believe after April , if the sun would shine through the arch, the arch's window ray would shine almost on the East Bouder Canyon floor.
But IMO the Aylor's arch aka " Dark Circle " was not used from the Peraltas to mark a mine in colaboration with the sun but in colaboration with a specific constellation in the night time.
Click to expand...
Markmar, Excellent post:icon_thumright:
I definitely agree that November thru February would be optimal. The reason for all this was because I think that Waltz was probably up at the spot on the ridge, late in afternoon, doing a security sweep of the West approach areas for any signs of company, when he noticed the hole in Palomino. I don't think he was looking for the hole, I think he noticed it due being sun lit from behind. "I think it caught his attention". I'm pretty sure that it would not be the easiest to see normally from that distance, but could be seen if you knew what and where to look, but not readily seen casually.
Other than illuminating the hole in Palomino, without blinding the viewer from looking towards the sun, I don't think there is anymore to it. The further South the sun is setting, the less it would be shinning in your eyes when viewing Palomino from the spot on that ridge behind the ravine. I think the time of year and time of day was just right for Waltz to notice the hole.

The information about using the Arch in conjunction with night sky is interesting. You have been on a research quest for a long time, and it shows.
Thank you for sharing about about all of this. :thumbsup::icon_thumleft:
Sincerely, Idahodutch
 

Idahodutch said:
Markmar, Excellent post:icon_thumright:
I definitely agree that November thru February would be optimal. The reason for all this was because I think that Waltz was probably up at the spot on the ridge, late in afternoon, doing a security sweep of the West approach areas for any signs of company, when he noticed the hole in Palomino. I don't think he was looking for the hole, I think he noticed it due being sun lit from behind. "I think it caught his attention". I'm pretty sure that it would not be the easiest to see normally from that distance, but could be seen if you knew what and where to look, but not readily seen casually.
Other than illuminating the hole in Palomino, without blinding the viewer from looking towards the sun, I don't think there is anymore to it. The further South the sun is setting, the less it would be shinning in your eyes when viewing Palomino from the spot on that ridge behind the ravine. I think the time of year and time of day was just right for Waltz to notice the hole.

The information about using the Arch in conjunction with night sky is interesting. You have been on a research quest for a long time, and it shows.
Thank you for sharing about about all of this. :thumbsup::icon_thumleft:
Sincerely, Idahodutch
Click to expand...

I like this one. View attachment 1782785
 

Idahodutch said:
I'll start by sharing some of my view about why the cashes appeal to me.
1) since it would take doing a treasure trove deal for the mine itself the caches seem doable if found.
2) most likely very little disruption to the wilderness to extract.
3) you could find one of the caches and probably no one would know.

Number 3 can also means that maybe they have been empty for a long time.
I think I had gotten comfortable with the odds of them, simply because it seemed to me that without a good map and the ruggedness of the terrain, well that is why it is still lost.

So here is my dilemma, what if it turns out that there is a map that if real, practically shows the spot and definitely shows the ravine.

I liked the odds way better before I realized that there is a map to the super secret ravine that I think could really be it.

Now I'm thinking who made this map, where, when did it surface. Then I think about this most likely means. If it is the spot, then the mine would still be there, but the caches were probably taken by whoever made the map. The caches were enough and made a map so he could watch the show. . . . . . . . . . . . .
Click to expand...

Well, I wanted to share where I was at with my search for the LDM site, and I think that's done. If I see something else, or can make it back in there and find something, I post it.
Thanks again and Happy New Years,
Idaho Dutch
 

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Just what does the LDM cave/mine entrance look like?

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