Dutchman's Caches

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Old man, a lot of the folks that try to protect a fortune, are basically sending up a signal flare, saying "I must have something to protect" . . . IMHO
Idahodutch

Yeah except there probably isn't any there, there other than cool scenery. Still fun to poke around but no aurum in them hills around there.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[Idahodutch]

Yeah except there probably isn't any there, there other than cool scenery. Still fun to poke around but no aurum in them hills around there.

I don't know about that . . . indications are that there is more than 1 mine/tunnel/outcropping/hole . (depending on what you read) . . So since the ravine isn't demolished, I highly doubt there is nothing left. Could be hard to find what's left perhaps, but perhaps not. I'm telling you guys, that the guy that made the waltz map, had worked this ravine. It would take a real twisted jerk to clean out the LDM, and then make a map showing how to find it. No, he left something behind for us. Now, perhaps some has already found that, and perhaps not.
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

The Tally for the Ravine . . So Far

The clues dealing with Location:
Here is earlier post;

I don’t know how the rest of you feel about it, but since I don’t need to worry about giving away the location of the area I like as being the site of the LDM, we might as well (or I guess who else is willing), talk about the clues that lead me to this ravine and what else is evident from what we have to work with.
Here is a re-post of “The Ravine”, for reference.
This ravine is located in Needle Canyon, just on the North side of the saddle of Bull Pass, as it crosses over the northern part of Black Top Mesa.
1) Weavers Needle is visible above the ravine to the South. Viewed from the Western edge of the ravine’s South ridge.
2) The Four Peaks viewed as one. The tip of one of the 4 peaks is visible from above the ravine on the Eastern edge of the of the ravines South ridge.
3) The ravine faces NW.
4) The center of the ravine lies about 2500’ elevation, within a 5 mile circle with Weaver’s Needle at the center. It is actually 2.4 miles from center of ravine to center of Weaver’s Needle.
5) A continuous thicket of Scrub Oak.
6) Heading North from Weavers Needle, down a long North trending canyon, the first side canyon coming in from the east. Just a few choices here if this a legit clue, and this ravine would be one of them.
7) Pass the little red hills and you’ve gone too far. This works for entering in from first water and West Boulder Canyon, or from the North via Second Water and Boulder Canyon, or from the South via Peralta Canyon and on down Needle Canyon.
8) A rock face looking into the ravine from across the (varies, but what, canyon, ravine? ) Pretty hard not to see that one.
9) The Waltz Map points to it . . . . . Not sure what that one is worth.

I never made it back again since my last trip in ’08, and have yet to find out what close up investigation of the ravine would reveal. I have only seen it from skirting the edges.
We have all been trying to solve a mystery, and since this site is out of the bag, what could it hurt to talk about it. Maybe someone will find some answers? Maybe someone has spent some time in this ravine and can share info on what they did or did not find? Ok, I know that’s asking a lot. . . . wth, it was liberating for me
Idaho Dutch

Next Post of clues;

Hello markmar,
Thanks for the correction on the wording on that clue. I moved not that long ago, and haven't gotten to the boxes that my LDM files are in. (I didn't have a PC at home until maybe 10 years ago). Anyway, I wasn't trying to quote the clues, rather just bringing up the ones that fit this ravine.

There are some more that I thought of that fit such as: (markmar, so you know, I am not quoting verbatim)
10) Being able to see military trail from? mine or above mine? All I can say with reasonable certainty, is that if this really is the LDM ravine, then that clue would fit. After all, who can say what trail the military was riding on when the Dutchman saw them and where was he in relation to his mine when he saw them? anyway, moving on.
11) A place where a few pack animals could graze (the saddle above on the East).
12) On a ledge. Plenty of ledges in that ravine.
13) Water tanks below. IDK for sure, but there might be some water down there in Needle canyon most of the year. It's amazing how much GE has improved over the last decade. In viewing prior years it sure looks like there is a springs that surfaces in a couple of places in that ravine as well.
14) You can't come in from the top or the bottom, but need to come around and down into the ravine from the side, and then back up.

I did not see a "trick in the trail", but maybe that is in the ravine.
I'm curious though, who around 1819 was taking mining debris to the top of this ravine to dump it? I would say that they would have had to be the skilled ones, and strong too, with lots of energy to waste. Maybe they misunderstood the directions that were given to them, because I kind of having a hard time with that one. (edit: but please keep um coming. This is good)

We need to add:
15) the German clue about being able to look from (saddle/top/above) and see a peak with a hole in it, off in the distance to the South = Palomino Mnt.

I'm sure there are more. . .

Before I sign off of this thread I wanted thank you guys for being here. I don't know if this brought any new information to the scene or even a different way of looking at it, but for what it is worth, I did enjoy sharing. . . . and yes, I do know that I could be wrong, but I think that this ravine is the home of the LDM, and that it was quietly found perhaps a few times. It still has a couple of old claim markers (or it did in '08) on it.

 

[Idahodutch]

Weelp, N 100 respirators are cheap on Amazon. Probably just as good to have one on as not, just in case. Color me paranoid. Bat guano is pretty nasty too if inhaled as a dust so I guess having a respirator is just as good as having a water filter out there.

Mc4500 if I ever find it I am moving there. Forest Service be damned. You can come too, I have my .25-06 and a .300 Winch and of course we'll need snipers and picket posts. :P

In all seriousness a little caution is probably a good thing. Wonder if there is drone deliveries out from Mesa for the essentials like McDonalds and Starbux. Of course they'll have to trust we'll send the gold back as payment after they deliver. Haha.

I'm with you dude. Nobody is gonna leave a fortune unprotected.

Old man, I gotta ask, are you the guy riding the motorcycle or the guy on the back. .
You're a funny guy. I don't know about setting up sniper posts or anything like that, but I have thought about going in there and setting up camp in that ravine. Maybe set up a good sized tent that has the bottom cut out of it and see what is what below. I could probably get packed in from ok corral. I still make it around my house and backyard and such. I'm sure that if I kept my activity to mosey speed I could do it, might be a lot slower, but could do it. They might question why my gear is sooooo much heavier going out than on the way in though? Would have to figure out something different to get goods of any substantial quantity out. All kidding aside, I have thought about it.

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Old man, I gotta ask, are you the guy riding the motorcycle or the guy on the back. .
You're a funny guy. I don't know about setting up sniper posts or anything like that, but I have thought about going in there and setting up camp in that ravine. Maybe set up a good sized tent that has the bottom cut out of it and see what is what below. I could probably get packed in from ok corral. I still make it around my house and backyard and such. I'm sure that if I kept my activity to mosey speed I could do it, might be a lot slower, but could do it. They might question why my gear is sooooo much heavier going out than on the way in though? Would have to figure out something different to get goods of any substantial quantity out. All kidding aside, I have thought about it.

Nothing wrong with mosey speed bro. It's hard not to think about it sometimes. Appreciate the compliment. I like funny. I was born half stupid and ugly so funny is all I got most times. Haha. Hope you are well. They mined out the Pit with tarps but that's a low traffic area. Hell we'll just dynamite it sometime. Hahaha. I'm the guy on the back btw. Those bear farts are horrible.

It helps to stage stuff in if you really have an area you are interested in. Good luck, and golden dreams amigo.

 

[Idahodutch]

Nothing wrong with mosey speed bro. It's hard not to think about it sometimes. Appreciate the compliment. I like funny. I was born half stupid and ugly so funny is all I got most times. Haha. Hope you are well. They mined out the Pit with tarps but that's a low traffic area. Hell we'll just dynamite it sometime. Hahaha. I'm the guy on the back btw. Those bear farts are horrible.

It helps to stage stuff in if you really have an area you are interested in. Good luck, and golden dreams amigo.

Old Man, I enjoyed the post
I have been working more than I would like, but it's not constant, so gotta take it when it comes. Other than that been doing a little better. Started using CBD topical oil on my back, and it seems to be making a difference. Mosey speed looking pretty doable. . . . I've got a big job to do as soon as I finish this one - puts me out to about mid-Feb. . . . man, . . it would really be fun. . We'll see . . keep posting...You got a knack for it
If you got time, maybe check out that ravine and tell me what you find

So, how come you aren't the one doing the driving . . . air might be fresher
Idaho

 

[Idahodutch]

Still Kind of Wowed with this

Hoping for some feedback on this one.
The clue from Holms Manuscript that Mathew Roberts posted #124 from "Your Favorite Clue / Evidence" thread.

alan m,

On page 15 of the Brownie Holmes manuscript Brownie states Waltz told his father, ..... go through the saddle and on up a low ridge, and when you get on the highest point of the ridge you can look north and the Four Peaks are lined up to look as one peak. In the other direction you will see a high needle, (pointed rock). In the canyon under you is my hidden camp.

That is word for word from the original copy of the Holmes manuscript (1944).

Matthew

After reading this, the saddle part of it came to life for me. It never had in the past, I was too focused on being able to see 4-Peaks as 1 from that ridge. To tell you the truth, (I don't think I ever looked to see if I was able to see Weaver's needle from that spot, but pretty sure that at least some of it would be visible. I do know that it is visible from the western edge of that ridge).

Here is a re-post of the Ravine image - Please note the "Saddle" above the Left (East) side of the ravine.



That high point right where the end of the saddle ties into the ridge is the spot that 4-peaks can be seen as 1-peak (the others are obstructed from view).
Then the German clue - not only are you supposed to be able to see 4-peaks as one, but look in the other direction , off in the distance you can see a peak with a hole through it. I give more weight to the German clue because I guess it seems like less chance for it to have morphed.

So here is the thing, This clue is actually a trifecta in order to hit the nail on that one.
I am witness to the fact that if you go through that saddle and hike on up to the ridge, you can view 4-peaks as one to the NNE. From that exact spot, do an about face to view SSW, and you are looking at the hole in Palomino Mountain. I guess it's called Aylor's Arch now. the view is not obstructed by the rest of Black Top Mesa. See attached.



Add to that many other clues that line up, for this location, and really just looking at it as objectively as I think I can, I am still having some difficulty, because either I am going loony, or this is actually a big deal. I don't know about you guys, but Even without digging around inside of the ravine, I'm like. . . . well, it's really starting to look interesting.

The reason I ask, is because I think that most of us, at one time or another, has experienced tunnel vision, and can't see what is right in front of our face. If I am doing that , seriously, help me see it. I have made a fool of myself before, and If I did again, oh well, (but it would be good to know)
Thanks, Idaho

 

[Al D]

Here isa photo of Four Peaks taken from Fountain Hills.
Any further elaboration on my part would be like beating a dead horse.

 

[Idahodutch]

Here isa photo of Four Peaks taken from Fountain Hills.
Any further elaboration on my part would be like beating a dead horse.

Alan,
We all know that the 4-peaks don't line up in a straight row correctly for the Supers. We also have clues that say that 4-peaks can be viewed a certain way from a certain place in the Supers. Which way is it? The answer is "Yes". Did you know that if you go along that ridge, heading Westerly from that spot, that within just a few feet, the one peak of the 4 that you could see, is now no longer in view, and that if you keep going Westerly, it starts to come back into view, but now you can see a bit more of it and it looks different. You once told me that I have never been to the top of Black Top Mesa, because you had and that I was not being truthful. Now you can see that I was not at the top of Black Top Mesa (which I never said I was), when I viewed 4-peaks and it looked like one peak.

I really hope you take the time to go in there and look for yourself.
Believing a certain way does not alter facts. It seems that you should quit blasting folks over this and just go look.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

P.S. - Alan, I got to thinking, and I did ask for feedback, just wasn't expecting the one you gave. So thanks for the feedback and I do hope you go look, Waltz was talking about what could be seen . . . . perspective.

 

[Al D]

Alan,
We all know that the 4-peaks don't line up in a straight row correctly for the Supers. We also have clues that say that 4-peaks can be viewed a certain way from a certain place in the Supers. Which way is it? The answer is "Yes". Did you know that if you go along that ridge, heading Westerly from that spot, that within just a few feet, the one peak of the 4 that you could see, is now no longer in view, and that if you keep going Westerly, it starts to come back into view, but now you can see a bit more of it and it looks different. You once told me that I have never been to the top of Black Top Mesa, because you had and that I was not being truthful. Now you can see that I was not at the top of Black Top Mesa (which I never said I was), when I viewed 4-peaks and it looked like one peak.

I really hope you take the time to go in there and look for yourself.
Believing a certain way does not alter facts. It seems that you should quit blasting folks over this and just go look.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

P.S. - Alan, I got to thinking, and I did ask for feedback, just wasn't expecting the one you gave. So thanks for the feedback and I do hope you go look, Waltz was talking about what could be seen . . . . perspective.

Here is another possibility, the Holmes manuscript is flawed to the point where it may be all made up, which is the conclusion of more researchers besides myself.

 

[Idahodutch]

Here is another possibility, the Holmes manuscript is flawed to the point where it may be all made up, which is the conclusion of more researchers besides myself.

Alan,
Perhaps some, but not all, that's partly why I give more weight to the German version, which talks about seeing 4-peaks as one in one direction and the peak with a hole thru it in the other. Is Barks notes full of it as well?
I guess this hole thing is not a big deal to you, but there are other folks on this forum who are actually looking for the LDM that may find it interesting.
Good luck on your quest.

 

[Al D]

Alan,
Perhaps some, but not all, that's partly why I give more weight to the German version, which talks about seeing 4-peaks as one in one direction and the peak with a hole thru it in the other. Is Barks notes full of it as well?
I guess this hole thing is not a big deal to you, but there are other folks on this forum who are actually looking for the LDM that may find it interesting.
Good luck on your quest.

Quite a self righteous position to assume that because I do not agree with your assessment of the clues, that somehow I don’t take this seriously
typical
the next time you ask for input when you really just want someone to agree with you, just say so, it will save a lot of time and boost your ego no doubt.

 

[Idahodutch]

Quite a self righteous position to assume that because I do not agree with your assessment of the clues, that somehow I don’t take this seriously
typical
the next time you ask for input when you really just want someone to agree with you, just say so, it will save a lot of time and boost your ego no doubt.

Alan,
Here is the situation as I understand it; you haven't been having issue with my assessments, what I am hearing is that you have issue with either my eyesight, or my honesty, or is it that I am self righteous . . . I provide a simple solution for you to discover the facts on this, go and look for yourself.

I guess in a round about way your vote is that this is a VERY Big Deal - Why else would you make so much over this clue about 4-peaks.
I didn't ask if everybody agreed with me. I asked if this is a big deal. You answered.
Idahodutch

 

[Al D]

Alan,
Here is the situation as I understand it; you haven't been having issue with my assessments, what I am hearing is that you have issue with either my eyesight, or my honesty, or is it that I am self righteous . . . I provide a simple solution for you to discover the facts on this, go and look for yourself.

I guess in a round about way your vote is that this is a VERY Big Deal - Why else would you make so much over this clue about 4-peaks.
I didn't ask if everybody agreed with me. I asked if this is a big deal. You answered.
Idahodutch

People die in those mountains almost every year chasing a false or misunderstood clue.

 

[azdave35]

alan is correct on this...

 

[Idahodutch]

People die in those mountains almost every year chasing a false or misunderstood clue.

Alan,
I agree with your statement you made as it stands by itself. But it sure sounds like it is a response to why you made so much over the clue about 4-peaks.
Going into the ravine would be treacherous, but not like that coming from Bull Pass over to that spot, If you know the area, then you know this. I never heard of anybody dying around that area since Adolf Ruth and that was a bullet to the head.

Calling the clues about 4-peaks "false or misunderstood". Please enlighten me as to how I misunderstood what I saw Alan.
Sincerely, Idahodutch

 

[Al D]

Alan,
I agree with your statement you made as it stands by itself. But it sure sounds like it is a response to why you made so much over the clue about 4-peaks.
Going into the ravine would be treacherous, but not like that coming from Bull Pass over to that spot, If you know the area, then you know this. I never heard of anybody dying around that area since Adolf Ruth and that was a bullet to the head.

Calling the clues about 4-peaks "false or misunderstood". Please enlighten me as to how I misunderstood what I saw Alan.
Sincerely, Idahodutch

You must have seen only part of the range called Four Peaks, however, the statement that Four Peaks line up as one strongly implies that all four of the peaks which make up FourPeaks align as one, which is impossible.
now comes the moral part, when you make a statement as “Fact”, you are responsible for what happens to others who accept it as fact, in much the same way that a person who says it is a fact that the bridge is not washed out, when in fact, he doesn’t know if it is or not.
I do not know what you saw, but it could not have been all four peaks aligned as one, and, this is not the only clue which has come under strong scrutiny from the Holmes manuscript.
I have hiked those mountains more times than I can remember and have seen many things of which I do not disclose simply because people hear and read what they want usually ignoring the actual cold hard facts, justifying their belief as some deep seated insight which enables them to understand what Waltz meant or said where others cannot.
It is ego driven, more people have covered that range than you can imagine, yet still, no lost dutchman mine.
here is another real possibility which you will no doubt reject.....the mine has been emptied or buried wherein no one will ever find it, but you go ahead, and when you bring out some Dutchman gold, I will jump at the opportunity to say I was wrong and eat a plate full of crow.

 

[Idahodutch]

You must have seen only part of the range called Four Peaks, however, the statement that Four Peaks line up as one strongly implies that all four of the peaks which make up FourPeaks align as one, which is impossible.
now comes the moral part, when you make a statement as “Fact”, you are responsible for what happens to others who accept it as fact, in much the same way that a person who says it is a fact that the bridge is not washed out, when in fact, he doesn’t know if it is or not.
I do not know what you saw, but it could not have been all four peaks aligned as one, and, this is not the only clue which has come under strong scrutiny from the Holmes manuscript.
I have hiked those mountains more times than I can remember and have seen many things of which I do not disclose simply because people hear and read what they want usually ignoring the actual cold hard facts, justifying their belief as some deep seated insight which enables them to understand what Waltz meant or said where others cannot.
It is ego driven, more people have covered that range than you can imagine, yet still, no lost dutchman mine.
here is another real possibility which you will no doubt reject.....the mine has been emptied or buried wherein no one will ever find it, but you go ahead, and when you bring out some Dutchman gold, I will jump at the opportunity to say I was wrong and eat a plate full of crow.

Alan,
I appreciate you fessing up to using you statement as a diversionary tactic. I do have a serious question for you. If you so strongly believe that the 4-peaks clues must be messed up somehow, why are you only stuck on the term "lined up", when in reality, if the 4-peaks clues are indeed messed up somehow, couldn't it logically be the term "lined up" that is the part that is messed up?

I don't have desire for you or anyone else to eat crow. And you might not like it, but I sometimes suspect the possibility that it has been emptied out and/or moved. I am just wowed that this site fits so many clues and even with old claim markers on it, knowing that if this is the site, then it was probably found. . .
. . but here is the thing empty or not if this is the site, then a big piece of the puzzle would be put in place. If it has been found, wouldn't you like to know where and when?
We all could start focusing on stuff like . . the rest of the story . . . or . . where did it go?

 

[Al D]

Alan,
I appreciate you fessing up to using you statement as a diversionary tactic. I do have a serious question for you. If you so strongly believe that the 4-peaks clues must be messed up somehow, why are you only stuck on the term "lined up", when in reality, if the 4-peaks clues are indeed messed up somehow, couldn't it logically be the term "lined up" that is the part that is messed up?

I don't have desire for you or anyone else to eat crow. And you might not like it, but I sometimes suspect the possibility that it has been emptied out and/or moved. I am just wowed that this site fits so many clues and even with old claim markers on it, knowing that if this is the site, then it was probably found. . .
. . but here is the thing empty or not if this is the site, then a big piece of the puzzle would be put in place. If it has been found, wouldn't you like to know where and when?
We all could start focusing on stuff like . . the rest of the story . . . or . . where did it go?

That is exactly my point, the clues which have been attributed to Waltz have never been verified, when one or two fit, the third one does not, so, of coarse the wording has been either mis understood, or mis quoted, or both, there is only one thing which can be accepted as fact....Waltz had gold, everything else is speculation and third party hearsay.
it would be prudent to add to every post a disclaimer......open to alternative interpretation, but not necessarily a fact.

 

[Idahodutch]

That is exactly my point, the clues which have been attributed to Waltz have never been verified, when one or two fit, the third one does not, so, of coarse the wording has been either mis understood, or mis quoted, or both, there is only one thing which can be accepted as fact....Waltz had gold, everything else is speculation and third party hearsay.
it would be prudent to add to every post a disclaimer......open to alternative interpretation, but not necessarily a fact.

Well, I am glad the steam kettle got moved off of the stove, I didn't know if it was going to boil over or not.

Even if someone interprets the term 'Lined Up' as say 'Looks As' or 'Looks Like', it is still a rare occurrence.
This does bring up a good point. . . the part I was saying as fact, was when look to the North, 4-Peaks look like 1 peak. (the reality is, all that is visible, is 1-peak at that spot, because the rest are obscured from view .) That is what can be viewed from that spot when looking north. Does that mean that this ravine is it. . . no. It's the accumulation of a lot of clues that makes it compelling for me.
Idahodutch