DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[gollum]

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY the Spanish were working with the Jesuits hiding treasure. If they had been, when the Jesuits were suppressed, the Spaniards would have swooped in to Tayopa, Guaynopa, Guaynopita, Tumacacori, and every other Jesuit place of wealth and claim them for the King. Nope, what the Jesuits did, they did for themselves and the Catholic Church.

Mike

 

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[Oroblanco]

Real de Tayopa wrote

Oro, do any of those references indicate that any of them cast bars in what has become the accepted rectangular or trapezoid shape.??

Not that I am aware of - the most common shapes of ancient times were the "oxhide" aka "reel" shapes, the round "bun" shape or the "wedge" which likely formed in the smelter by the crude method of simply pouring ground up ore into a hot charcoal fire, with a wedge shaped pit at the bottom. Not saying there never were any rectangular or trapezoid in ancient times, but I have never found any like that described anywhere.

UncleMatt wrote

I am very open to the idea of pre-Columbian European and/or Asian visitors to the Americas. However, that is a far cry from saying such out of towners deposited huge amounts of gold at VP, or anywhere else in the Americas.

I am in agreement 100%. There is a fair chance that a huge treasure was shipped out of N. Africa in 149 BC and carried to America, and IF the VP treasure had an ancient origin this would be my bet, however the artifacts and documents point to a much more modern origin.
　
　

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sdc, You tell me. Did I say anything about the Jesuits & the spanish working together

 

[UncleMatt]

I have information on a "private enterprise operation" (ala Kelly's Hero's) that involved French & Spanish men in a group, that was operating without the consent of the Spanish, or paying the king's tax on what they mined. So the possibility of mining operations going on under the nose of the Spanish and Jesuits doesn't seem much of a stretch. It was a big country, and lots of room to get away with shenanigans.

 

[sdcfia]

sdc, You tell me. Did I say anything about the Jesuits & the spanish working together

Post#1215
RdTTT: "For a group that manipulateed Royalty, Kingdoms and countries,it was simple bribery a Common practice then -- and now."

RdTTT: "With private or Crown guards, also a little bribery."

RdTTT: "The logistics were the same as for the normal commercial traffic, as for the secrecy, again bribery had it's use. They were doing this from the 1600's."

RdTTT: "For the frist century or so, all of it -- bribery money."

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
Even though I am just scratching the surface here, I assure you it is related (and much more is related) in order to figure out exactly what treasures Willie and Doc may have been involved with in both the Caballos and Vicky, and other of these Treasure Legends in other States, as well. Certainly if you are an outsider, working only with public domain information about it all. But, not everyone will see that.

I've tracked down some of your earlier posts elsewhere on this forum, and have noticed that you haven't exactly been embraced. I guess the Peanut Gallery doesn't like their puppet show being interrupted. Some questions to consider about this thread's Caballo mysteries: is it possible there were groups of "undocumented free agents" active in North America's Spanish and French territories following the Conquest? If so, what the heck were they doing? Could the Jesuits have been silent witnesses? The Franciscans?

Matt: interesting - keep us posted please.

 

[UncleMatt]

I agree that there were likely many mining operations in New Spain that were not on the radar of anyone, even the Jesuits and Franciscans. I would go into more detail about the example I referred to earlier, but it is an active project of mine and for now its being kept under wraps.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OH ?? I still don't see where the Spanish crown (Gov't) was doing what you said. 'Individuals' in the gov't yes, crown , no

Clue me in sdc.

 

[sdcfia]

OH ?? I still don't see where the Spanish crown (Gov't) was doing what you said. 'Individuals' in the gov't yes, crown , no

Clue me in sdc.

I'd say the ball is in your court, Don Jose, not mine. Your theories are only being supported by more theories - all based on a questionable map.

 

[sdcfia]

I agree that there were likely many mining operations in New Spain that were not on the radar of anyone, even the Jesuits and Franciscans. I would go into more detail about the example I referred to earlier, but it is an active project of mine and for now its being kept under wraps.

I certainly understand your need for security. If you can provide general findings without compromising location in any way, it might be instructive. In any event - good luck.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

A little slight OT on the Caballo / VP

when I first found Tayopa a friend from Alaska suggested to me that 'his' friend in Alaska was a map dowser, and suggested that I send the other 'Don' some pictures of Tayopa,. So I blew up some photographs and duly sent them off to Alaska. In time they came back heavily marked with pencil scrawling and scribblings.

After I had the time, I found that He had correctly identified perhaps 80 -90% of what I knew of Tayopa at that time.

This perked my interest, so I sent him another set on the coast, where another point of interest was. Again in due time they came back with a large section heavily scribbled, I ignored it -- today that section just north of Hermosillo is a large copper producing operation ??

He sent me scribblings all around Tayopa, among which was one of the Cero del Cura:, Hill of the priest, so named for a Jesuit priest that was exploring around, always searching, searching. until he came to that hill, where he fell of to his death. I never have been able to find his name - this was around the turn of the century (1900 )

Don had heavily marked the southern end of the Hill.

As time went by I was approached by a group from Hermosillo that had just filed next to my claim, to the south.

It seems that a sharp eyed Indian had spotted a pair of nesting Macaws flying to the south end of the hill and disappearing. He went there to see if he could find a young bird or two,since he could sell them for more than his yearly income. He found the nest empty, but found that they were not nesting in a crevice , but a series of man made tunnels. He mentioned this to a man that knew the men from Hermosillo, who promptly filed on a large tract just south of me and sent a team to investigate, but found nothing but empty tunnels cut in the rock ??

?They decided to talk to me about this and I showed them the dowsed map by Don, they were extremely impressed and suggested a partnership, to which I agreed - they had working capital'

One of my projects was the deposit, upon checking I found that the surveyor hadn't followed my instructions and that I had only 1/2 of the deposit and they, the other half, a nightmare situation which I resolved by agreeing to the partnership.


So there it stands, We are trying to access my deposit

I wonder just what he could do on Victorio Peak & Caballo mt?

Unfortunately Don is no longer dowsing maps, he started to communicate with departed friends via dowsing, and his family had him put under the care of a Psychiatrist and he is kept doped up, he seems to be happy so as a matter of honor and respect to he and his family, I have never approached him for more dowsing, but I will always wonder.

Moral of story is - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - -

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OH sdc , I see ------------

 

[UncleMatt]

The general circumstances are that French and Spanish individuals ran a mining operation for 20 years in the 1700's. They were never confronted by any European or Religious authorities at all. As far as I know they paid no tax on what they mined, it was a secret operation. Its always good to remind yourself just how unpopulated New Spain was, and how long people had to get things done in total isolation. They simply didn't operate on the same time frame we moderns do.

 

[UncleMatt]

Now its my turn to do some guessing: if you were working in secret at Victorio Peak, you would be set up quite well to do so. There is a water supply on the surface nearby, and there are game animals to hunt. There might also have been a source for water under VP itself. If you found a rich subterranean placer under VP you would work in the cool shade, not in the desert heat, and you would do your work out of sight. If you stored away enough food, you might not have to go outside for weeks at a time! You might raise a family while this was going on, and several generations might have been involved.

BUT, when the Indians finally found you, they would not be happy with the fact you set up operations right next to their main base camp at Geronimo Mountain. So you and your family might be killed/tortured, and perhaps tied up and left to die of thirst and starvation just a few feet away from all the gold you and your family had worked to hoard over the years...

 

[johnmark29020]

If you consider that noss was lieing to make his story bigger than what it really was. Some things add up.

Example. Doc said he got a map from a indan while doing time.
Well if that statement is fluffed up.

Then you are left with. I got my map from a indian.
If thats the true statement. Then the indian may have explained the map and how to read it.
Which would explain how noss found the gold and other caches.

Also if you guys havent heard. A land swap on az between the state and a copper mining company is taking place near superior. They are getting part of the tonto national forest.
Some places of search will soone be private property and off limits.
Including my site. So if you have site around north happy camp or queens creek or know someone who does.
You may want to let them know.

 

[UncleMatt]

He also got a map from an Indian he was treating as a pediatrist....

 

[sdcfia]

Now its my turn to do some guessing: if you were working in secret at Victorio Peak, you would be set up quite well to do so. There is a water supply on the surface nearby, and there are game animals to hunt. There might also have been a source for water under VP itself. If you found a rich subterranean placer under VP you would work in the cool shade, not in the desert heat, and you would do your work out of sight. If you stored away enough food, you might not have to go outside for weeks at a time! You might raise a family while this was going on, and several generations might have been involved.

BUT, when the Indians finally found you, they would not be happy with the fact you set up operations right next to their main base camp at Geronimo Mountain. So you and your family might be killed/tortured, and perhaps tied up and left to die of thirst and starvation just a few feet away from all the gold you and your family had worked to hoard over the years...

I don't believe you would be living underground for any extended periods - and for anyone who has not spent any time in a mine or deep cave, more than a couple days is an uncomfortable extended period in my opinion. It's inconceivable to me that you would choose to semi-permanently live underground, as it is not a healthy experience, physically or psychologically, in large doses. Legend has it that Indian slaves were kept en masse underground in some of the old Spanish mines and worked until they died, but this doesn't sound too smart as your help would be dying off rapidly. If you had unlimited replacements, it might work for a while, but the Indians near the mine would not be stupid, and it's hard to imagine they'd remain vulnerable to getting constantly abducted.

For the type of extended operation you're proposing, you would need a surface camp, in my opinion, and go underground to work for a day or so at a time at the most. You would need shelter - easy enough to erect. You would need firewood - easy at first, harder as time goes by. Many sites - not all - offer the advantages of water and game, but the game wouldn't last long, or at least you would be chasing it increasingly farther from camp as time went by. Also, people need more than meat to eat, at least after a few weeks. That means you need to either have some sort of a relationship with local natives to obtain grains, nuts, etc. (assuming there are native villages nearby), or you need to grow and gather your own food - not an easy task in the Southwest.

A 20-year secret operation is a real beast, but I've actually heard of one in the Southwest that lasted about five years. This alleged European group numbered about thirty professionals when they arrived. They allegedly took over a permanent native village about twenty miles from the mine - a site which was located, yes, in underground caverns. The outsiders kept much of their force in camp in order to compel the natives to maintain a food supply for them. The underground work was done by slaves stolen from the tribe. The troublemakers were chained to the wall at the entrance as examples to the rest, who were treated reasonably well if they continued to cooperate. From the beginning, tribal members who escaped the village, along with allies from other villages, waged sniper warfare against the group, gradually reducing their ranks. Eventually, the Europeans' were reduced in number to a point where they could no longer control the operation and they organized a retreat. Or so the story goes. It seems possible, but the mystery of it would be the identity of the Europeans.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Wood for making charcoal for smelting

Cut down trees are considerably more noticeable than tailings. In some operations the tailings were disposed of piece by piece in the nearest arroyo, when you have no cost labor, and it is necessary to keep your operation on a low key, because of Attacks by Indians of just plain bandits, it is logical.

 

[UncleMatt]

I see both your points! I had not considered the fuel requirement to smelt so many bars, and sdcfia tossed in some good points as well. But those points do bring to bear additional criteria to consider. If you operate as a given that there were thousands of dore bars hoarded under VP, you need to figure out where the ore for them was originally mined, what location and means was used to process them into bars, how they were transported to the site, and who was responsible for same. And I could further point out the rock in VP's vaults does not appear to have been exposed to a great deal of smoke for extended periods of time, so that rules out underground mining, smelting, and habitation in the peak iteself. I say this because wood smoke from fires below VP for all those activities would have left their mark on the stone, and I have seen no trace of such smoke deposits in photos. Unless, of course, there were additional openings and tunnels back in those days. Barring that, though, my subterranean placer idea seems to be a non-starter. And as was pointed out, the amount of fuel to smelt such a hoard would not be small. I doubt nearby trees and shrubs would come close to being enough. You would need a forest or a coal deposit, or a lot of charcoal.

added later: One variation occurred to me that might still make it viable: if there is a huge cavern under VP with its own air flow system. Such a cavern could have been large enough to live in very comfortably, and would whisk away smoke from fires to unknown air exits in the far reached of the cavern. But you would still have the issue of fuel to consider.

 

[UncleMatt]

This video was posted earlier



At 28.41 in, you are shown the "needle's eye" I believe its called, and they are also talking about the cart road they have observed while coming up to that point. Does anyone have a GPS for that "eye" monument? I would like to try to analyze that cart road from GE, and see if I can make anything out.