DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sdc: more coffee?

1) If they did leave it cached there, why haven't they recovered it? (Please don't claim they lost track of several thousand gold bars apparently accumulated over decades.

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A11) First it was for the intended takeover of North Americamin the 1700's for which they were expelled which made it a hot potato, then the area was taken over by the US, then the civil war prevented it. By then they were making so much money by other means,that they could care less, so they left it there for more favorable conditions, but Doc & Willir loused that up

12) np's map. We have no reason to believe that map wasn't cooked up in recent times. I'm not accusing anyone, just saying that those Noss maps are just internet pictures, hand drawn by persons unidentified. If the paper and ink can be dated by a forensic archivist, then it might be used as a talking point.

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a12) I have already answered that. in a recent past post.



13) If there is gold cached in the Caballo Mountains, it's more likely that it either originated in New Mexico or was moved there either Pre-Columbian or after the Mexican War,

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13a) Where in new Mexico is an area capable of prodicing that much Gold or silv er? No precolumbian culture ever produced cast bars. There is no way that that could have moved across Mexico during the revoloution without discovery.

 

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[UncleMatt]

The last line of your post got me thinking Don, perhaps the source of gold for VP was simply below it in caverns no one has seen yet. We have in this thread and others discussed the kokoweef kind of scenario, where a large cavern develops as limestone is worn away by water, providing a place for gold to accumulate over the eons. I have spoken about the kind of gold deposits geologists surmise is to be found at the bedrock far below the Rio Grande, and perhaps there is a similar situation in caverns in the Victorio Peak area. Maybe no transportation of the gold was needed, except UP to the levels it was found at VP. Modern geological studies of the peak all conclude it has a contact between 2 different forms of rock matrix in the peak, which often is associated with conditions suitable for gold deposits.

When/IF I get those NASA satellite scans, it will give further clues. If no ancient roadways are observed on such scans leading to VP, then how would gold have been moved there if it came from elsewhere? As sdcfia pointed out, that much gold would take a HUGE amount of effort to move from afar into VP, and would leave behind signs of the people/animals who moved it. If no such signs exist, yet we maintain the gold WAS there for the military to take, that might point to a subterranean source for the gold below VP. I am searching for evidence to support or refute this possibility, at this point its a fantasy.

added later: VP stands about 350 to 400 feet above the surrounding Hembrillo basin. Yet Doc said he descended 2,700 feet into the caverns below VP! I'm not sure I believe that at all, but if true, it would provide an area for such a gold collecting cavern to exist.

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

Well maybe it was Egyptian mined and stored ? Or pre Egyptian . maybe it just did not have a great value to them .
What other great society could have stored it there of all places .

 

[sdcfia]

My focus is on coming up with ways to obtain evidence, not on anything else. That is why I posted those photos as I did, because it illustrates a search for hard evidence, such as dating an old ladder to determine when the trees were cut to make it. You could also test the wood for chemical signatures to see what it had been exposed to over the years it was in place. Notice how I didn't start off with guesses about where it came from or who made it and put it there, but on ways to extract raw data to point us in a direction. My focus is not on coming up with explanations for things that I have no evidence for, but to come up with evidence upon which to base plausible theories.

In my humble opinion any researcher should be focused on where the evidence leads, and his energies should be focused on obtaining evidence, not on only speculating in the absence of evidence. And I know this mindset is a bummer to those who just want to have fun speculating, so have at it.

Yes, I was looking forward to seeing what might have been determined from that. Of course, to be fair, it would have been important for you to have been present when the sampling was done, which I trust you would have insisted upon. That way, you could have verified the sampling, inspected the materials used to construct the ladders, climbed down them to inspect the cave for additional artifacts/remnants, and most importantly, confirmed the cave's location, which you were told was in the Caballos. It's interesting that the mining claim was allowed to lapse - it's ownership trail over the decades might be useful. It was a good effort on your part - one that probably could have been done many years ago and might have established at least a partial timeline.

You're correct that we need to discover, then follow the evidence. We are not that far apart, on that except that I tend to cast my nets a bit farther than you do. By the way, an absence of evidence that should exist is also informative.

 

[Oroblanco]

Uncle Matt - not to head down the speculation highway, which IMHO is the only realistic option to pursue since there is reason to believe any treasure in VP has long since vanished; but to address one issue that you take offense to. Namely pre-Columbian visitors to NM.

Columbus was not the first to cross the Atlantic successfully. Neither was Leif Eriksson. There are several medeival 'legends' of crossings, such as prince Madoc of Wales, Saint Brendan 'the navigator' or even Henry Sinclair, though he post-dates the Norse colonies and exploration. In the so-called 'classical' age of antiquity, one of the major cultures of the Mediterranean basin was quite advanced in seafaring, bringing spices from as far away as SE Asia, circumnavigating Africa and sending explorers out into the Atlantic, namely the Phoenicians and especially their western progeny Carthage.

Diodorus Siculus records that the Carthaginians had found a 'secret' land far out in the Atlantic, and Aristotle likewise states much the same thing, even adding that the Carthaginians had attempted to plant a colony at one time but it was ordered withdrawn by their Senate, out of fear that a "crowd" would soon resort there, and the land would be kept as a secret haven for the people should some calamity befall their homeland. Plutarch stated that documents were found in the ruins of Carthage that explained the northern route across the Atlantic as well, the same route taken by the Norse a thousand years later.

Artifacts have turned up in Phoenician tombs which absolutely came from the Americas, like a table made of Brazilian "pau" wood (a type of ironwood native to Brazil) and correspondingly some artifacts have turned up in the Americas like Carthaginian coins at a number of sites. Without going too far into this, we might add that several ancient shipwrecks have been found in the Americas as well, proving that ships did cross the Atlantic in the time before Christ.

Even in New Mexico, there is the enigmatic stone inscription and possible fortifications found at the Los Lunas site. The stone is called the Los Lunas decalogue stone, as some have theorized that it is an ancient set of the 10 Commandments, the alphabet being of Semitic type (either Phoenician or ancient Hebrew, they are very similar and the inscription can be read in either language).

It is a flawed assumption to conclude that if any contact took place, then we must find massive amounts of evidence, namely weapons, ruins, DNA etc. The kind of visits which were being made in ancient times was or were not intended to establish cities and permanent footing, these were sporadic visits by relatively small parties, generally out trying to find their own fortunes. Weapons would be the last thing such men were likely to let be transferred to strange foreigners whom could easily become hostile. Coins were likewise nearly useless, for most Amerindian cultures did not use coins. (There are exceptions of course, the 'hoe' or 'axe' money of several civilizations, which most closely resembles ancient Chinese coins of the same style, more in a moment) Herodotus even records how Phoenicians were able to trade with native peoples that they had almost no contact with, by simply piling goods on shore and the natives did likewise, until both parties were satisfied nothing would be removed by either side. Visitors whom were more like prospectors, not looking to establish permanant homes, and left very little evidence of their presence here.

There are certainly many strange parallels that point to Chinese contact with the Americas in the pre-columbian era as well; from the strange jade body and face covers of the Mayans to the 'hoe' money used by Aztecs, Incas and others. A record of an ancient voyage to what sounds like America exists in the story of the Chinese monk Fu Sang about the 7th century AD. Cross oceanic currents and prevailing 'trade' winds tend to carry ships and anything that floats directly across the largest oceans, and many accidental crossings have occurred over the centuries. Aristotle and Diodorus Siculus both stated that the first landings in the Americas by Phoenicians (Carthaginians specifically) was by accident due to being driven there by powerful storms, while planting colonies along the Atlantic coast of Africa. Columbus on his first attempt to cross the Atlantic sailed south from Spain to the coast of Africa to take advantage of the powerful trade winds located in that region which carry ships directly across the Atlantic.

Even in the bible, we have enigmatic clues that king Solomon's 'navy' of ships may well have been obtaining some of the wealth described as being imported from mysterious Ophir, really was visiting America; the voyages took three years to complete, which is the same time span required by the first Europeans to circumnavigate the world, Magellan and Drake. Plus there is a hint that the ships were departing from the Red sea port of Ezion-geber, and returning to the Mediterranean port of Joppa. This would explain why later kings of Judaea were forced to build new ships in Ezion-geber to try to re-open the lucrative trade route.

Quite a few other cultures also have left evidence of having visited the Americas including the ancient people of Japan, Arab traders of the medeival period apparently carried across the ocean by accident, black Africans depicted so enigmatically in the gigantic stone Olmec heads, Polynesians as proposed by Thor Heyerdahl, Basques, Celts, Malays, even possibly Babylonians - the famous Nez Perce chief Joseph had a clay tablet of cuneiform that he stated had been in his family for many generations!

How does any of this tie in with Victorio Peak or the Caballos? It does not, directly, just pointing out that we should not rule out ancient visitors as a possible identity of who or whom placed the treasure in the cave in the first place. Personally I doubt that it is ancient, for there were items which clearly post-date the ancient period by many centuries, which IMHO fairly rules out any Carthaginians or king Solomon as the original owners. With this treasure legend we are left with only the stories and a few photos, the legal papers from the lawsuit, and a missing treasure. If speculation is off the table, then we have pretty much already covered the evidence that remains such as it is.

Anyway just hoped to point out that there is evidence of pre-Columbian visitors coming to America, even in New Mexico, and we ought not expect to find numerous weapons, armor, pottery etc from what were rather transitory visits by relatively small groups and at sporadic times; there was no regular system in place nor any permanent presence although some believe in the Tucson artifacts as proof of a Roman-Samaritan colony in the southwest, I am far from convinced those artifacts are genuine.

If you are interested in reading further about ancient explorers coming to America long before Columbus, I would recommend several books:

America BC by Dr Barry Fell
Bronze Age America by Fell
In Plain Sight, Old World Records in Ancient America by Gloria Farley
Did the Phoenicians Discover America? by Thomas Crawford Johnston
Long Before Columbus, How the Ancients Discovered America by Hans Holzer
Fusang, or, The discovery of America by Chinese Buddhist priests in the fifth century by Charles G. Leland <this one is online @ Full text of "Fusang, or, The discovery of America by Chinese Buddhist priests in the fifth century"

There are many online articles as well, anyway even some of our historians are starting to admit that some level of contact across the oceans was taking place in ancient times.

　
　
　
Please do continue amigos, sorry for the long winded post and for drifting somewhat off topic.
Oroblanco


　

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, do any of those references indicate that any of them cast bars in what has become the accepted rectangular or trapezoid shape.??

 

[sdcfia]

The last line of your post got me thinking Don, perhaps the source of gold for VP was simply below it in caverns no one has seen yet. We have in this thread and others discussed the kokoweef kind of scenario, where a large cavern develops as limestone is worn away by water, providing a place for gold to accumulate over the eons. I have spoken about the kind of gold deposits geologists surmise is to be found at the bedrock far below the Rio Grande, and perhaps there is a similar situation in caverns in the Victorio Peak area. Maybe no transportation of the gold was needed, except UP to the levels it was found at VP. Modern geological studies of the peak all conclude it has a contact between 2 different forms of rock matrix in the peak, which often is associated with conditions suitable for gold deposits.

When/IF I get those NASA satellite scans, it will give further clues. If no ancient roadways are observed on such scans leading to VP, then how would gold have been moved there if it came from elsewhere? As sdcfia pointed out, that much gold would take a HUGE amount of effort to move from afar into VP, and would leave behind signs of the people/animals who moved it. If no such signs exist, yet we maintain the gold WAS there for the military to take, that might point to a subterranean source for the gold below VP. I am searching for evidence to support or refute this possibility, at this point its a fantasy.

added later: VP stands about 350 to 400 feet above the surrounding Hembrillo basin. Yet Doc said he descended 2,700 feet into the caverns below VP! I'm not sure I believe that at all, but if true, it would provide an area for such a gold collecting cavern to exist.

https://nmgs.nmt.edu/publications/guidebooks/downloads/6/6_p0136_p0145.pdf

Very good point. The abundance of known caves and cavern systems in those upthrusted limestone mountains (Caballos, San Andres, Organs, etc) makes the existence of a subsurface gold source a possibility - plausible, as you like to say, ha ha. In fact, there's rumors of just such a massive subterranean native gold occurance discovered by Marcos de Niza west of our area of interest in the upper Gila River watershed region of New Mexico, but that's OT here - just rumors anyway. However, don't forget the old Mexican stories about Chicomoztoc, the seven golden caves, etc. that lit a fire under the early New World Spaniards. They never found much during their expeditions - maybe what they sought was not above ground. At least, that's what the historical documentation reports. Working a subsurface mineral deposit certainly would explain how such a site could remain hidden for the most part, and kept "off the books". They would still need to house, feed and water their workers, presumably somewhere on the surface. However, then the same old questions come up: who did it and why did they leave all the gold in the caves?

 

[UncleMatt]

Sdcfia, if I obtain cutting from either of those ladders it will be with my own saw. I would not accept a cutting from anyone second hand, unless they videotaped the sampling process and marked it in such a way on camera that I could tell for sure it was genuine when it reached me. I have asked for additional details from the guy who posted those photos. One of which was how far into the cave you must go before you encounter the ladders and passages downward. We will see what he comes back with.

 

[UncleMatt]

Also, anywhere along the Rio Grand where you can reach bedrock, or even clay barriers, you always fine gold. That happens far upstream of where I am in Albuquerque, but its still a fact today if the gold hasn't already been removed in the past. That occurs up in Colorado, much closer to the headwaters. So imagine what must lay far below me here in Albuquerque on bedrock! At one time there was a VERY deep canyon/gorge here, and now its all full of eroded sediments from up north. Perhaps in some areas gold was trapped much closer to the surface, such as in the limestone caverns I mentioned earlier. It wouldn't have to be but a small sliver of the total from erosion up north to be a huge amount by mankind's standards. Perhaps there is a cavern below VP that gives access to such a subterranean placer.

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

Egypt kings .. Where did there gold come from ?
They had small boats could not move a lot . There main thing was building pyramids with mammoth man power .

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
Even in New Mexico, there is the enigmatic stone inscription and possible fortifications found at the Los Lunas site. The stone is called the Los Lunas decalogue stone, as some have theorized that it is an ancient set of the 10 Commandments, the alphabet being of Semitic type (either Phoenician or ancient Hebrew, they are very similar and the inscription can be read in either language).
<cut>
If you are interested in reading further about ancient explorers coming to America long before Columbus, I would recommend several books:

America BC by Dr Barry Fell
Bronze Age America by Fell
In Plain Sight, Old World Records in Ancient America by Gloria Farley
Did the Phoenicians Discover America? by Thomas Crawford Johnston
Long Before Columbus, How the Ancients Discovered America by Hans Holzer
Fusang, or, The discovery of America by Chinese Buddhist priests in the fifth century by Charles G. Leland <this one is online @ Full text of "Fusang, or, The discovery of America by Chinese Buddhist priests in the fifth century"

There are many online articles as well, anyway even some of our historians are starting to admit that some level of contact across the oceans was taking place in ancient times.

Oroblanco


　

Thanks for the info, Oro. I would add Discovery of Ancient America, by David Allen Deal to your list. Although some of his presentation is questionable in my mind, Deal presents some very intriguing material about the structural ruins on the top of Hidden Mountain, where the Decalog Stone sits, marking the trail upward. The ruins are quite similar to BC military encampments cataloged in the North African Mediterranean region. Also, some time ago I posted a number of old photos of Mediterranean-appearing petroglyphs found in the Caballo/San Andres/Organ vicinity http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/victorio-peak/111197-victorio-peak-update-2.html , Post #119. While this doesn't prove a connection, nonetheless it is circumstantial evidence that hasn't been fully explained yet.

 

[UncleMatt]

I am very open to the idea of pre-Columbian European and/or Asian visitors to the Americas. However, that is a far cry from saying such out of towners deposited huge amounts of gold at VP, or anywhere else in the Americas.

 

[sdcfia]

Sdc: more coffee?
<cut>

Thanks for answering my concerns, Don Jose. Your explanations seem to boil down to, essentially, an agreement between the Jesuits and the Crown to allow free reign for the brothers to execute a long-term plan transferring multiple thousands of illegal gold bars from Mexico to the Caballo Mountains - which presumably served as a staging area for later transfer downriver to the Gulf of Mexico. This was undoubtedly done with not only the complicity of generations of grunt soldiers and bureaucrats, but under the noses of entrenched Franciscans and murderous Apaches, who weren't for sale. This sounds similar to the alleged - never proven - El Dorado Jesuit/Crown agreement in the Peru/Ecuador theater in the 16th century.

I am generally open to conspiracy theories, but this one is a whopper even for me, and considering the time span required and the loyalty needed by so many relatively low-level personnel to keep things quiet, I'm going to need a lot more convincin' before I swallow it. Offhand, it seems more likely that the Atlantians did the deed, like Mr. Snow alleges. I don't mean to be flippant, because I know you want to tie all this into your Tayopa stuff, but ... I'm gonna need something stronger than cafe - something with a cork in the bottle.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sdc, I don't see how you ended up with that. I suggest that you read that data over again carefully. Curruption was a way of life in those days, especially on the frontier.

 

[UncleMatt]

Trust me, corruption is still the way of life here in New Mexico...

 

[UncleMatt]

Why do you think they chose Albuquerque to film Breaking Bad? The weather?

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

I'm still a believer the Egypt had the only man power to pull off a feat of this mass of ohifer .

 

[sdcfia]

Why do you think they chose Albuquerque to film Breaking Bad? The weather?

The casting was easy - just cruise south Broadway for an hour and you're set.

 

[sdcfia]

sdc, I don't see how you ended up with that. I suggest that you read that data over again carefully. Curruption was a way of life in those days, especially on the frontier.

The data? What data? Corruption is the way of the world, of course. Getting away with it for decades at a time is a whole different story. Question: if the Jesuits and the Spaniards were in cahoots loading the Caballos with multi-thousands of gold bars, and then the Jesuits were kicked out of the New World, why didn't those corrupt Spaniards just march up the river and seize the gold as illegal contraband?

 

[UncleMatt]

An hour? More like come to a stop at the intersection of Louisiana and Central for a red light...