DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[sdcfia]

Doc was focused on finding ALL seven locations shown on the map he was following. Treasure hunters are never satisfied with some of the treasure, they want it all. Just like Doc did, and just like any of us would...

So we've been told. Not all people think the same - personally, I would follow Willie/Larry's plan.

 

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[UncleMatt]

If Willie did indeed just make periodic withdrawals from his cave, I would agree. If you find tons of gold though, and you are a heavy drinker with a chip on his shoulder, you might feel drawn to seek even more if the map that led you to the first find showed six more just waiting there...

 

[gollum]

Logic breaks down for me at this point. What benefit comes to Noss by going to look for a second treasure cave at this point in time? If he could locate a second cache, he would have been faced with the same Gold Act problems that nagged him in dealing with the gold he claimed he removed from VP - an unlimited amount of gold that he claimed he could still access from there via his "secret entrance" (yet another Doc lie?). It seems much more likely to me that the source of Doc's gold was always in the Caballos - presumably Willie's Cave. The more interesting question might be, if Willie was still accessing his Caballo cave after he relocated to California, was Doc also still also tapping it during his VP scamming years? And if not, why not?

Logic doesn't break down at all. Look at what was going on with Doc in the 1940s. A lot of attention was being paid to VP. It was no secret by then. The narrow passage into VP had been blasted shut. Doc was going through all kinds of crap at VP in the 1940s. It is only logical that if he had that map, and he believed that map showed other treasure caves, why not go look for them?

I don't understand why you find that hard to believe.

Mike

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

Is it possible that someone had paranoid feelings about so much gold and treasure that he rat packed some loads to his favorite caves as a boy ? Ones he knew well and could be a hidding spot for a few staches . after all to many people knew about VP by now .

 

[UncleMatt]

I find that totally reasonable Mike.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning, I recommend that you -all go to the early forum on the
VP as he suggested, it s fascinating, I even found that I had posted a few, off topic as usual,.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/v...p-trying-get-permit-remove-doc-noss-gold.html

You'll have an hour of interesting reading, and the answer to many of te present questions.

Side thing, the interview with wily, his way of talking doesn't fit his book.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

slightly OT

Geese Judy, I saw in that series where we were ganging up on poor SWR back in 07. We have been close friends that long ? and you still believe in me ? As an honor I will let you fetch mi coffee Luv. And of course I'll have to send you the data on the actual Tayopa Portal or you can ask Oro.

He moved to Treasure Hunting.com where he became a mod, and was finally banned there also -- after extracting his revenge by calling me a Troll and finally banning me there, But Christian reinstated me, but I only post there to keep in ocontact with my friend Hardrock through PM... Stories & data I only post in T.Net.com, here.

 

[gollum]

Logic breaks down with a lot of this stuff, lol. Hell, some of these treasure legends are complete BS, from the git go. The exalted by many KvM himself flatly stated that the LDM is complete fiction. But, go back to your post with the picture where you mentioned the Masonic links. People will argue whether it means anything or not, but what is undeniable about it is that the very real potential for behind the scenes schemes and plans exists - one would think some in-depth looking and discussion should occur about these ties, but getting a conversation like that going can be like pulling teeth.

People are trying to figure this out based solely upon Doc and Willie, their actions and supposed intent. Those two are NOT the whole story with Vicky and the Caballos. Not even close. A lot of people's focus is simply following their footsteps, instead of looking behind the scenes to see if they were being told where to walk ...

With Doc, he either stumbles upon Vicky (the BS deer hunting story), ends up with a map to Vicky (purportedly from a stint in jail and an Apache in jail hooked him up with it), or some type of Willie/Caballo connection with, the gold originating in the Caballos and Doc relocating some to Vicky to claim he found it there, or Doc abandoning Vicky to go work a separate Caballo cache, or Doc maybe finding a map to the Caballos in Vicky.

And whatever other theories I am missing. And for whatever other theories I am missing, there is something missing from all of these theories. A common thing they are missing. They won't delve into the associations of these two, like you are questioning, or the associations of anyone, like the talked about Reynolds kid. Or too far into what other players may have been associated with these caches in the past.

Two examples being the Masonic link (I'm not indicting Freemasonry - many Masons belong to other Secret Societies though, with Freemasonry being kind of an entrance point to invitations to other Societies, with their Masonic link being the first clue) you are pointing out and Señor Gringo's Tayopa ties that he makes a legitimate case for. If people want to figure this stuff out, this needs as much, or more, discussion than what house Willie lived in in SoCal decades later. Not to disregard that type of research, for it is important and can lead to other ties and better things, but it is only the entrance point. People don't ask about the 'kidnappers', either, namely looking for their identities and ties.

Who put the cache there to begin with? The hard to pinpoint Padre La Rue, also mentioned as Le Ruz from Rome associated with the 7 Cities letter? Maximillion? KGC? Señor's Jesuits? Aztec? Spanish? Templar? Phonecian? Some combination of those parties? Other?

Want to, as an outsider, have any chance of figuring it out? Gotta ask those questions, and a lot more, for without inside, privileged information on most of these stories, good luck getting anywhere meaningful ...

There's a lot of asking about how Willie found the map, but how in the hell could he or Doc actually decipher and read such maps? What information and research materials were available in that part of New Mexico in the 30's? Just a couple average Joes circa the Depression who, one way or another, come across maps and manage to decipher them? Maps that if you see what Señor Gringo and I see in reference to a crosier, were very potentially authored by Jesuits - some of the most intelligent and well educated men in the world. Both at Tayopa time and today.

And 'ol Doc the chiropodist and his pal Willie crack their code in no time flat.

L ... O ... L

Finding a map and then knowing what to do with it are entirely different things. They had more than a map. They had inside information, NOT just a map and a sextant. Whether stolen, inherited, or bequeathed information, they had it. Let's not forget that Doc got whacked, too. I think it more likely that Doc was headed back to his truck to get the hell outta there, as he figured out he was in trouble, not to get the gun.

NOBODY,


No argument with what you say. As we all know, there are a TON of unanswered questions regarding VP and Willie's Cave. I put a lot of stock in the whole Jesuit Connection, but then again, Jesuits are my main field of study (as most of you know). While I can't discount 100% the Masonic Connection (Buster was treated in a Masonic Hospital and Doc is buried in a Masonic Cemetery), I have to ask the questions "How many other hospitals were there in El Paso in 1928? How many cemeteries were in the area in 1949?" When Busters Legs were amputated by that train, who here REALLY thinks that Willie took the time to pick a Masonic Hospital to treat the dying Buster? Buster was bleeding to death from his injuries, and Willie took him out of his way to a Masonic Hospital? Not likely. Now, in Willie's book (Passport to Eternity), he mentions "This reminded me of the time when I was taking my lodge degrees. With ,this, too I would learn all the answers in "due time."


Now, was this just for the book, or had Willie been a member of a Fraternal Lodge? Many men did in the 50's. The venerable Ralph Kramden and his good friend Ed Norton were both members of the esteemed Racoon Lodge! Is it possible that Willie was a Freemason? ABSOLUTELY. Do I think he was a member in 1928? Probably not. Do I think Doc was a Freemason? Not likely. He wasn't the type of guy Freemasons would trust with a big secret like the location of a large treasure. Willie was the same. A heavy drinker with a big mouth (he admitted so himself).


Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Logic breaks down with a lot of this stuff, lol. Hell, some of these treasure legends are complete BS, from the git go. The exalted by many KvM himself flatly stated that the LDM is complete fiction. But, go back to your post with the picture where you mentioned the Masonic links. People will argue whether it means anything or not, but what is undeniable about it is that the very real potential for behind the scenes schemes and plans exists - one would think some in-depth looking and discussion should occur about these ties, but getting a conversation like that going can be like pulling teeth.

People are trying to figure this out based solely upon Doc and Willie, their actions and supposed intent. Those two are NOT the whole story with Vicky and the Caballos. Not even close. A lot of people's focus is simply following their footsteps, instead of looking behind the scenes to see if they were being told where to walk ...

With Doc, he either stumbles upon Vicky (the BS deer hunting story), ends up with a map to Vicky (purportedly from a stint in jail and an Apache in jail hooked him up with it), or some type of Willie/Caballo connection with, the gold originating in the Caballos and Doc relocating some to Vicky to claim he found it there, or Doc abandoning Vicky to go work a separate Caballo cache, or Doc maybe finding a map to the Caballos in Vicky.

And whatever other theories I am missing. And for whatever other theories I am missing, there is something missing from all of these theories. A common thing they are missing. They won't delve into the associations of these two, like you are questioning, or the associations of anyone, like the talked about Reynolds kid. Or too far into what other players may have been associated with these caches in the past.

Two examples being the Masonic link (I'm not indicting Freemasonry - many Masons belong to other Secret Societies though, with Freemasonry being kind of an entrance point to invitations to other Societies, with their Masonic link being the first clue) you are pointing out and Señor Gringo's Tayopa ties that he makes a legitimate case for. If people want to figure this stuff out, this needs as much, or more, discussion than what house Willie lived in in SoCal decades later. Not to disregard that type of research, for it is important and can lead to other ties and better things, but it is only the entrance point. People don't ask about the 'kidnappers', either, namely looking for their identities and ties.

Who put the cache there to begin with? The hard to pinpoint Padre La Rue, also mentioned as Le Ruz from Rome associated with the 7 Cities letter? Maximillion? KGC? Señor's Jesuits? Aztec? Spanish? Templar? Phonecian? Some combination of those parties? Other?

Want to, as an outsider, have any chance of figuring it out? Gotta ask those questions, and a lot more, for without inside, privileged information on most of these stories, good luck getting anywhere meaningful ...

There's a lot of asking about how Willie found the map, but how in the hell could he or Doc actually decipher and read such maps? What information and research materials were available in that part of New Mexico in the 30's? Just a couple average Joes circa the Depression who, one way or another, come across maps and manage to decipher them? Maps that if you see what Señor Gringo and I see in reference to a crosier, were very potentially authored by Jesuits - some of the most intelligent and well educated men in the world. Both at Tayopa time and today.

And 'ol Doc the chiropodist and his pal Willie crack their code in no time flat.

L ... O ... L

Finding a map and then knowing what to do with it are entirely different things. They had more than a map. They had inside information, NOT just a map and a sextant. Whether stolen, inherited, or bequeathed information, they had it. Let's not forget that Doc got whacked, too. I think it more likely that Doc was headed back to his truck to get the hell outta there, as he figured out he was in trouble, not to get the gun.

I guess I'm generally on the same page. Since these Caballo/VP rumors have been in the public domain for 80 or 90 years - defended by none other than Doc Noss's descendants in a recent book - I suppose it's normal to assume they're true. However, I don't understand how so many glaring inconsistencies, questions and shortcomings in the Caballo/VP stories can overlooked, ignored or rejected out of hand.

What we have so far is conflicting hearsay, newspaper reports, and alleged artifacts that have no provenance. In my opinion, we don't know anything for certain other than Douthit and Noss likely came into possession of a significant quantity of gold bullion. What we'd like to know is, if there was (is) gold secreted in the Caballos, who cached it and when? And, what really happened ca 1930 that involved Reynolds, Douthit, Ward and Noss? It seems like we may not be able to answer these questions satisfactorily unless verifiable evidence surfaces.

 

[UncleMatt]

I have learned a great deal by simply reading every thread that has been posted in sections I have an in interest in. And things like those photos are my reward. Little clues that may still be verified one way or the other. I would love to cut a sample from that second ladder, and have it dated.

 

[sdcfia]

I have learned a great deal by simply reading every thread that has been posted in sections I have an in interest in. And things like those photos are my reward. Little clues that may still be verified one way or the other. I would love to cut a sample from that second ladder, and have it dated.

That would be interesting for sure. If the ladder cave is on your contact's brother's claim, is there a chance that he will take you in for a close look?

 

[UncleMatt]

That would be interesting for sure. If the ladder cave is on your contact's brother's claim, is there a chance that he will take you in for a close look?

He tells me his brother allowed the claim to lapse, and now they are working half a mile to the south. When I went to that location, sure enough, there were signs of a mining camp there very recently.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sdc, the Jesuits had the opportunity and motive for depositing that metal,

1) They had the major illegal mines production from Sonora & Chihuahua to store for the infrequent Jesuit ship anchored around Matamoros.

2) The deposit area is almost perfectly suited for their purposes

3) They had the means to produce that much metal in those days, no-one else did.

4) They drew a map that was surprisingly good for those days for long distances. NP's map is surprisingly accurate and contained information about Tayopa, which only the Jesuits supposedly knew at that time,

In Doc's & and wilies time it had not been located, only in 1992. yet the map placed it correctly in it's location, plus Nobody's Crossier which was drawn on the map. id's it as Jesuit - another thing that willie / Noss normally wouldn't know either.

Conclusion --> It was originally a Jesuit deposit, although it can't be ruled out that other's also added to it over time for the same purpose, but why didn't they retrieve some of the bars if so ?

The southerner's desperately need gold and silver for their war chest. soooo that lead - KGC -can be ruled out, same for Maxie. and his loot from Mexico. Apaches could only produce perhaps a mule train once in a while, sides in those days they wern't known for such hard labor, would have been hidden down below for easier access.

La rue?? no way could he have produced that much metal, or any single mining operation without leaving obvious evidence in an area that was heavily prospected for mineral..

Conclusion, 'IT WAS A JESUIT OPERATION'

 

[UncleMatt]

I'm inclined to agree, but leave myself open to later depositors and/or influences. If they did in fact discover the hoard, I imagine it would have given the Apaches great fun to tie up their captives within arm's reach of huge stacks of gold and leave them there to die of thirst and hunger. Also please recall there was supposedly a passage into lower VP via a tunnel suitable for carts to pass through, so storing a hoard of bars in lower VP might not have been as labor intensive as we imagine if all of it were lowered down through an interior shaft from the peak. My reading says the covered opening might be in the arroyo between VP and Geronimo, assuming it wasn't destroyed by military shenanigans.

I have contacted my step-mother asking if she can find out through her NASA channels if any satellite scans of the area were done by NASA similar to the kind of scan that found roads and cities beneath the sands of Egypt. If an old road was used to haul a lot of gold to a cache site, the road way might appear in such a scan. In that video that was posted earlier about the Caballos, they showed the eye of the needle, and also a cart road that I found very interesting for just such reasons.

 

[sdcfia]

Sdc, the Jesuits had the opportunity and motive for depositing that metal,

1) They had the major illegal mines production from Sonora & Chihuahua to store for the infrequent Jesuit ship anchored around Matamoros.

2) The deposit area is almost perfectly suited for their purposes

3) They had the means to produce that much metal in those days, no-one else did.

4) They drew a map that was surprisingly good for those days for long distances. NP's map is surprisingly accurate and contained information about Tayopa, which only the Jesuits supposedly knew at that time,

In Doc's & and wilies time it had not been located, only in 1992. yet the map placed it correctly in it's location, plus Nobody's Crossier which was drawn on the map. id's it as Jesuit - another thing that willie / Noss normally wouldn't know either.

Conclusion --> It was originally a Jesuit deposit, although it can't be ruled out that other's also added to it over time for the same purpose, but why didn't they retrieve some of the bars if so ?

The southerner's desperately need gold and silver for their war chest. soooo that lead - KGC -can be ruled out, same for Maxie. and his loot from Mexico. Apaches could only produce perhaps a mule train once in a while, sides
in those days they wern't known for such hard labor, would have been hidden down below for easier access.

La rue?? no way could he have produced that much metal, or any single mining operation without leaving obvious evidence in an area that was heavily prospected for mineral..

Conclusion, 'IT WAS A JESUIT OPERATION'

It's a creative theory, but you need to flesh it out considerably.

1) Logistics.
-Why choose a site directly on El Camino Real de Tierra Adentro, the Spanish artery into North America from Chihuahua, in steady use since 1598?
-Where did the Jesuits learn about the caverns in the Caballo range?
-Assuming the Jesuits' Caballo activities were between 1700 and 1760, what route did they use to get there year after year?
-How did the pack trains avoid the Spanish Military, which was routinely sending patrols all over southern New Mexico from Janos during this period?
-How did the Jesuit pack trains protect themselves from the Apache?
-Why travel so far north and so close to Paso del Norte when they could have used, say, the Big Bend area instead?
-The Caballos are far from a perfect depository for the Jesuits. They present recurring security risks from the Spanish and the Apache.

We're told there are thousands of 40 pound gold bars hidden in the Caballos - let's say 8,000 (maybe twice that many, maybe more). That's 320,000 pounds. 1,600 animal loads at 200 pounds per animal. One trip every 2 years beginning about 1700 is about 30 trips with 50 loaded animals. Add the handlers, numerous supply animals, a need for campsites at limited water sources, security forces, etc. and you have a major logistical problem going and returning through the heart of Apacheria and stopping dead on the Camino Real two days north of Paso del Norte. How did they secretly pull this off?

2) Transfer to the Gulf. Why not transfer the gold directly down the river to the ships when the ships arrived at the mouth of the Rio Grande? Why risk moving the bullion twice and then have to avoid the Spanish at Paso del Norte? Was any gold moved back to Europe? If not, why leave all your wealth in one place - the Caballos? If they did leave it cached there, why haven't they recovered it? (Please don't claim they lost track of several thousand gold bars apparently accumulated over decades).

3) np's map. We have no reason to believe that map wasn't cooked up in recent times. I'm not accusing anyone, just saying that those Noss maps are just internet pictures, hand drawn by persons unidentified. If the paper and ink can be dated by a forensic archivist, then it might be used as a talking point.

If there is gold cached in the Caballo Mountains, it's more likely that it either originated in New Mexico or was moved there either Pre-Columbian or after the Mexican War, in my mind. I think it's possible that he Jesuits may have obtained information about the alleged Caballo caches from unknown sources at some point, but I don't believe they put it there. It would be a convenient explanation if they did, but you're going to have to do some more work to be convincing.

 

[UncleMatt]

Please show a single shred of evidence that any gold at VP or the Callabos was placed there "pre-Columbian".

 

[sdcfia]

Please show a single shred of evidence that any gold at VP or the Callabos was placed there "pre-Columbian".

Obviously, I can't provide that, but until we know where the gold came from, it certainly remains a possibility. All options remain open, including Don Jose's Jesuit theory, which is plausible but far from convincing. We are told there are thousands of bars there - if that is true, can you provide evidence where they came from? Convincing evidence, please - not assumptions, treasure book stories, Noss family spin or any other unsupported lore.

We know from your previous posts that you are adamantly opposed to alternative theories and demand evidence to support them. This is healthy and definitely the correct approach, but it also needs to be applied to the "default" theories. For example, "It's Spanish." If you take the time to thoroughly research the established protocols for Spanish mining ventures in the 16th-18th centuries, you'll see that it would be quite difficult to tag the Caballo rumors as originating from an early Spanish approved commercial mining venture, or at least one that became "lost". (How does something that big become lost sitting on the Camino Real?) Where's the evidence? Not the assumption, but the evidence? (There's a good thread that provides links to early New World mining somewhere here on Tnet, but I can't relocate it. Perhaps someone else saved it and will post it.)

Pre-Columbian? It hasn't been close to proven, but the idea is certainly plausible, and the existence of apparent North African petroglyphs and ruins in New Mexico's Rio Grande Valley (at least between the Rio Puerco and the Organs) does raise an eyebrow. That's the point of these discussions, Unc, to probe the mysteries. We simply don't know for sure where the Caballo gold came from yet.

 

[UncleMatt]

We've been through this already. Its also a possibility that space aliens put it there. Should we roll that around here as well for a few pages? I disagree that things are "plausible" that have zero foundation to base them on. What makes an idea "plausible"? Its not "probing mysteries" to introduce ideas to the discussion that have no basis in reality, that's called playing the "what if" game. Sure, its fun to play, but does it do anything when it comes to figuring out the realities involved? I don't think so.

 

[UncleMatt]

My focus is on coming up with ways to obtain evidence, not on anything else. That is why I posted those photos as I did, because it illustrates a search for hard evidence, such as dating an old ladder to determine when the trees were cut to make it. You could also test the wood for chemical signatures to see what it had been exposed to over the years it was in place. Notice how I didn't start off with guesses about where it came from or who made it and put it there, but on ways to extract raw data to point us in a direction. My focus is not on coming up with explanations for things that I have no evidence for, but to come up with evidence upon which to base plausible theories.

In my humble opinion any researcher should be focused on where the evidence leads, and his energies should be focused on obtaining evidence, not on only speculating in the absence of evidence. And I know this mindset is a bummer to those who just want to have fun speculating, so have at it.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hola,,G'd morning SDC: csfe?

1) -The Caballos are far from a perfect depository for the Jesuits. They present recurring security risks from the Spanish and the Apache.

****
1a) Relatively speaking it was. There was no where that was free of that possibility.


2) -Where did the Jesuits learn about the caverns in the Caballo range?
****
a2) Your guess is as good as mine or probably theirs


3) .-Assuming the Jesuits' Caballo activities were between 1700 and 1760, what route did they use to get there year after year?
****
a3) First it was from the 1600's, Across the sierras by mule basically, then by cart to Chihuahua on to the El Paso region, then north to the Caballo / Vickie peak.


4) -How did the pack trains avoid the Spanish Military, which was routinely sending patrols all over southern New Mexico from Janos during this period?
****

a4) For a group that manipulateed Royalty, Kingdoms and countries,it was simple bribery a Common practice then -- and now.


5) How did the Jesuit pack trains protect themselves from the Apache?

****

a5) With private or Crown guards, also a little bribery . The Apache were not stupid, if they could get goodies without fighting and losing warriors why not?.

****

6) -Why travel so far north and so close to Paso del Norte when they could have used, say, the Big Bend area instead?

****

A6) cause it was far shorter and less expensive, remember if they were using the two wheeled carts, the wheels were relatively fragile. Sides they woud have to deal with the Comanches also.


7) -The Caballos are far from a perfect depository for the Jesuits. They present recurring security risks from the Spanish and the Apache.

****
a7) Actually no place was perfect. But apparently they handled it adequatly.


8) We're told there are thousands of 40 pound gold bars hidden in the Caballos - let's say 8,000 (maybe twice that many, maybe more). That's 320,000 pounds. 1,600 animal loads at 200 pounds per animal. One trip every 2 years beginning about 1700 is about 30 trips with 50 loaded animals. Add the handlers, numerous supply animals, a need for campsites at limited water sources, security forces, etc. and you have a major logistical problem going and returning through the heart of Apacheria and stopping dead on the Camino Real two days north of Paso del Norte. How did they secretly pull this off?

a8) The logistics were the same as for the normal commercial traffic, as for the secrecy, again bribery had it's use. They were doing this from the 1600's.


9) Transfer to the Gulf. Why not transfer the gold directly down the river to the ships when the ships arrived at the mouth of the Rio Grande?

*****

a9) Too long for a ship to be loaded. They could move large quantities quickly by the river.


10) Was any gold moved back to Europe?

****

A 10) For the frist century or so, all of it -- bribery money.


11)