DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[dougachim]

I live in las Cruces if anyone needs help exploring southern new mexico.

 

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[TedinArizona]

Real deal Tayopa is not anymore with us. But i agree with your statement about the NP pink map.
In my opinion, this map is for Arizona, for the region where the Jesuits hid their church treasure before been expelled. Actually in this map are two maps, with one to be up side down.

Ah I’m sorry to hear about Real Tayopa,,

I have never studied the map upside down, but I am absolutely sure some of the map is in mirrored image with standard image, physical layout if that makes sense, the physical layout in one portion is exact but the C marks the spot would actually be flipped

 

[TedinArizona]

Oops t

Ah I’m sorry to hear about Real Tayopa,,

I have never studied the map upside down, but I am absolutely sure some of the map is in mirrored image with standard image, physical layout if that makes sense, the physical layout in one portion is exact but the C marks the spot would actually be flipped

Oops that was supposed to be X marks the spot not “C” marks the spot

 

[markmar]

Oops t

Oops that was supposed to be X marks the spot not “C” marks the spot

This was in the beginning of the maps making. In the middle of 18th century, they ( Spanish and Jesuits ) changed the X with circle or dot in circle. After the changing, the crosses have been used only as a reference for a religious purpose or for a specific shape on the ground which looked like a cross.
IMO, in the pink map was used a circle and a dot in circle to mark the spot. Not the spots, because the symbols mark the same spot, one of the three places which were used to hide the treasure of " Santa Fe ".

 

[TedinArizona]

This was in the beginning of the maps making. In the middle of 18th century, they ( Spanish and Jesuits ) changed the X with circle or dot in circle. After the changing, the crosses have been used only as a reference for a religious purpose or for a specific shape on the ground which looked like a cross.
IMO, in the pink map was used a circle and a dot in circle to mark the spot. Not the spots, because the symbols mark the same spot, one of the three places which were used to hide the treasure of " Santa Fe ".

I have a very different take on the map and have physically been to the sites and seen the evidence in the area, one of the locations is blatant evidence but of course all treasure hunters have their questionable blatant evidence hahaha

 

[Tanneyhill]

yer fishing Oro, but ok, non verifiable, just personal speculation . The Jesuits at first used mule trains to a small bay near Matamorros. whether they developed a depository there or not, so far is unknown, but probably not since a ship could only arrive ever year or two, hurricane season, then winter storms. and used different anchorages.

Later somehow, they decided on the caballos and natural caves, but mort importantly, the river. It was navigable for the rest of the long journey for barges, or rafts, easily constructed on site. so they used more time on the primary route, but they more than made up for it by the far longer part of the trip by the river. ( I wonder how many bars were lost in the river ?? hmmmm.)

In other words If you could straighten the river out, it would reach almost to Chihuahua. A far less expensive and dangerous trip. ( I have many flaws in this reasoning but will present it for now )

A problem arises when they reach the river, unless they had an isolated ford, they would be too obvious. Hoof tracks in the sand or mud of heavily loaded animals.which would be obvious to anyone of that era.

Thay probably commenced storing the bars in the depository about the mid 1600's and continued to use it until the mid 1700's when they decided on the revolt against spain, and developed a depository in the Tayopa zone for the where-with-all to cover the expenses of the proposed Revelation. Less ecposure.

This could explain the no .of bars, but what is puzzling is no mention is made of Silver bars?? perhaps they wern;t valuable enough to go to the trouble and cost to send them to the Caballos

this will do for this morning, need something foe this afternoon.

Such an amazing thread - I am thread page #11 and am addicted. You all are amazing for passing down valuable information to newer generation of treasure hunters.

I had a question for you all - are there any sources indicating lost Jesuit ships at sea? If we have Spanish records describing Spanish treasure shipwrecks as early as the early 1500s then by logic one would think of the possibility that some of the Jesuit ships ran into problems during their voyage back to Rome? I know their operations were clandestine but would Rome keep these records and if so I assume they would not be public? Anyone ever research down this angle before?

 

[sdcfia]

Such an amazing thread - I am thread page #11 and am addicted. You all are amazing for passing down valuable information to newer generation of treasure hunters.

I had a question for you all - are there any sources indicating lost Jesuit ships at sea? If we have Spanish records describing Spanish treasure shipwrecks as early as the early 1500s then by logic one would think of the possibility that some of the Jesuit ships ran into problems during their voyage back to Rome? I know their operations were clandestine but would Rome keep these records and if so I assume they would not be public? Anyone ever research down this angle before?

Your head will be spinning if you read all 3,400 posts in that thread, ha ha. Before I quit TNet back in those days, I was posting under the ID of "Springfield" and had (have) some contrary thoughts about the Jesuit legends. I don't recall much, if any, talk about Jesuit shipwrecks - might be an interesting field though.

There was a poster called "Nobody" active back then too. If his material wasn't deleted from this and other threads, you might be interested in his points of view. He also posted as "Cat Jockey" and IMO was thinking on a level above the rest of us guppies.

 

[Tanneyhill]

Your head will be spinning if you read all 3,400 posts in that thread, ha ha. Before I quit TNet back in those days, I was posting under the ID of "Springfield" and had (have) some contrary thoughts about the Jesuit legends. I don't recall much, if any, talk about Jesuit shipwrecks - might be an interesting field though.

There was a poster called "Nobody" active back then too. If his material wasn't deleted from this and other threads, you might be interested in his points of view. He also posted as "Cat Jockey" and IMO was thinking on a level above the rest of us guppies.

Ah yes I've bookmarked many posts by you as Springfield and many others. I can only see the quoted replies of others of "nobody's" posts. Don't know why they deleted his actual posts. I'm on page 24 and been taking detailed notes and bookmarks along the way. I reckon I will have to re-read this thread multiple times to instill everything to memory.

I am going to have a lot of questions for you all after I am done reading as this thread was begun 9 years ago back in 2014. Many of the regular contributors have since vanished from TNet, hopefully because they found their desired caches and are relaxing in retirement.😃

 

[sdcfia]

Ah yes I've bookmarked many posts by you as Springfield and many others. I can only see the quoted replies of others of "nobody's" posts. Don't know why they deleted his actual posts. I'm on page 24 and been taking detailed notes and bookmarks along the way. I reckon I will have to re-read this thread multiple times to instill everything to memory.

I am going to have a lot of questions for you all after I am done reading as this thread was begun 9 years ago back in 2014. Many of the regular contributors have since vanished from TNet, hopefully because they found their desired caches and are relaxing in retirement.😃

Man, that's a daunting task, requiring a good dose of tenacity.

Some past contributors here have likely passed away, some have moved on to other things, like real life, some have gotten tired of the constant repeating of the same old arguments, etc. I've known a number of folks who have claimed TH success, but never once have seen any convincing support of their claims, except a good story. I suppose it's possible some of these were guarding their security in order not to draw too much attention to themselves - let's hope so. IMO however, most claimants were more likely bolstering their own standing in "the community" - simple human nature. [IMO, an understanding of human nature is perhaps your greatest tool for "treasure hunting" in particular, and life in general.]

I've held in my own two hands one recovery - a twenty pound +/- mass of melted down gold coins. It was outlaw loot found by a man (now long deceased) and his father buried in an old corral. He would not allow a photo. He was never a poster on TNet - maybe a significant fact, as human nature (see above) tells me that true secrets will not be revealed in the public media.

 

[sdcfia]

I've been messing with ChatGPT lately. Warning: this artificial intelligence interface provides many obviously incorrect responses to a user's queries. However, with diligence, re-wording previous questions, asking follow-ups, elaborating on earlier statements, obtaining verifiable facts, etc., the ChatGPT answers seem to slowly become more reliable if you work at it. Problem is, when all is said and done, does a user finally get a "true" picture of the subject matter? Hard to say, but if used as a search engine, at least it serves better than Google Search, which is basically irrelevant these days.

That said, I asked ChatGPT about early Spanish efforts at Santa Rita del Cobre, about 50 miles west of the Caballos. The official historical narrative is that the Spanish began mining copper/gold in the area in 1803 and shipped the metal overland, straight south to Chihuahua by pack train. Local lore in the area dates Spanish activity much earlier, but those claims are considered "folklore", even though there are a number of Spanish military reports that indirectly support the earlier activities. These are available in historical review papers, etc. if you dig deep enough.

Now, here's a typical ChatGPT response in that dialog:
... In the mid-17th century, records show that Spanish settlers were actively mining copper in the Santa Rita area. In 1663, for example, Governor Juan Francisco Treviño of New Mexico ordered the construction of a smelter at the Santa Rita copper mines to process the ore. Other records from the period also refer to the Santa Rita copper deposits and the mining activities taking place there.

While there is no specific documentation of a concession granted in 1625, it is possible that the Spanish were informally exploiting the copper deposits in the region prior to this time. The lack of documentation may be due to the fact that early Spanish expeditions to the region were often carried out without official permission or oversight. ....

OK, that's a start. Specific dates, allegations and a name. A later probing offered several more names and circumstances, allegedly in the records at the Palace of the Governors in Santa Fe. That all needs to be verified.

More to the topic in the current thread, I asked about a connection between Santa Rita del Cobre and the Caballo Range region. One of ChatGPT's responses:
... According to historical records, the copper was transported by mule and wagon overland to the Rio Grande, where it was loaded onto boats and transported downstream to the city of El Paso del Norte (now Ciudad Juárez). From there, the copper was transported to other parts of the Spanish empire, including Mexico City and other major cities in Spain and Europe.

The transportation of copper from Santa Rita to the Rio Grande was a challenging and dangerous undertaking, due to the rugged terrain and the threat of attack from indigenous peoples who were hostile to the Spanish colonizers. Nevertheless, the transport of copper from Santa Rita to the Rio Grande was a critical part of the colonial economy in New Mexico, and played an important role in the development of the region during the Spanish colonial period. ...

If this response can be verified, it could very well explain where Noss's copper bars with gold values originated. The Santa Rita del Cobre region is also home to "folklore" that describes large quantities of nearly pure gold bullion being recovered in the 16th century. We won't go into that here, but if copper bars were shipped to the Rio Grande, one might assume gold was too. [Again: be careful with ChatGPT]

 

[Ryano]

I've been messing with ChatGPT lately. Warning: this artificial intelligence interface provides many obviously incorrect responses to a user's queries. However, with diligence, re-wording previous questions, asking follow-ups, elaborating on earlier statements, obtaining verifiable facts, etc., the ChatGPT answers seem to slowly become more reliable if you work at it. Problem is, when all is said and done, does a user finally get a "true" picture of the subject matter? Hard to say, but if used as a search engine, at least it serves better than Google Search, which is basically irrelevant these days.

That said, I asked ChatGPT about early Spanish efforts at Santa Rita del Cobre, about 50 miles west of the Caballos. The official historical narrative is that the Spanish began mining copper/gold in the area in 1803 and shipped the metal overland, straight south to Chihuahua by pack train. Local lore in the area dates Spanish activity much earlier, but those claims are considered "folklore", even though there are a number of Spanish military reports that indirectly support the earlier activities. These are available in historical review papers, etc. if you dig deep enough.

Now, here's a typical ChatGPT response in that dialog:
... In the mid-17th century, records show that Spanish settlers were actively mining copper in the Santa Rita area. In 1663, for example, Governor Juan Francisco Treviño of New Mexico ordered the construction of a smelter at the Santa Rita copper mines to process the ore. Other records from the period also refer to the Santa Rita copper deposits and the mining activities taking place there.

While there is no specific documentation of a concession granted in 1625, it is possible that the Spanish were informally exploiting the copper deposits in the region prior to this time. The lack of documentation may be due to the fact that early Spanish expeditions to the region were often carried out without official permission or oversight. ....

OK, that's a start. Specific dates, allegations and a name. A later probing offered several more names and circumstances, allegedly in the records at the Palace of the Governors in Santa Fe. That all needs to be verified.

More to the topic in the current thread, I asked about a connection between Santa Rita del Cobre and the Caballo Range region. One of ChatGPT's responses:
... According to historical records, the copper was transported by mule and wagon overland to the Rio Grande, where it was loaded onto boats and transported downstream to the city of El Paso del Norte (now Ciudad Juárez). From there, the copper was transported to other parts of the Spanish empire, including Mexico City and other major cities in Spain and Europe.

The transportation of copper from Santa Rita to the Rio Grande was a challenging and dangerous undertaking, due to the rugged terrain and the threat of attack from indigenous peoples who were hostile to the Spanish colonizers. Nevertheless, the transport of copper from Santa Rita to the Rio Grande was a critical part of the colonial economy in New Mexico, and played an important role in the development of the region during the Spanish colonial period. ...

If this response can be verified, it could very well explain where Noss's copper bars with gold values originated. The Santa Rita del Cobre region is also home to "folklore" that describes large quantities of nearly pure gold bullion being recovered in the 16th century. We won't go into that here, but if copper bars were shipped to the Rio Grande, one might assume gold was too. [Again: be careful with ChatGPT]

You're ahead of the curve as usual. Agreed, it's a game-changer for researchers. Especially when it has access to (AKA "trained" on) curated datasets like the thousands upon thousands of research papers currently locked behind paywalls like Academia.edu and ResearchGate, or all the history of Newspapers.com... and why not the digitized collection at VaticanLibrary.va !

 

[sdcfia]

You're ahead of the curve as usual. Agreed, it's a game-changer for researchers. Especially when it has access to (AKA "trained" on) curated datasets like the thousands upon thousands of research papers currently locked behind paywalls like Academia.edu and ResearchGate, or all the history of Newspapers.com... and why not the digitized collection at VaticanLibrary.va !

Yeah, groovy vision all right, Ryano. It's one I would like to go all-in on too: finally, all secrets revealed. But this hope is clouded, unfortunately, by the usual gorilla in the room. All artificial intelligence uses are programmed by their owners to provide information based upon those owners' agendas. When these shiny new gizmos become perfected, they will have the capability of not only providing instantaneous answers, but also for withholding facts, creating facts, and either solidifying existing, or creating new, narratives to keep all cats herded. Who will these owners be? What are their objectives? Is the future being pimped going to be an informational breakthrough for the masses or just a better honed control mechanism? Obviously, we hope for the former, but ...

I guess I've lived too long and seen too much. I've been cursed with red pills all my life that I can't un-see. I can only hope old Pete Townshend's political observation decades ago does not apply to AI : "Meet the new boss - same as the old boss."

 

[kanabite]

Yeah, groovy vision all right, Ryano. It's one I would like to go all-in on too: finally, all secrets revealed. But this hope is clouded, unfortunately, by the usual gorilla in the room. All artificial intelligence uses are programmed by their owners to provide information based upon those owners' agendas. When these shiny new gizmos become perfected, they will have the capability of not only providing instantaneous answers, but also for withholding facts, creating facts, and either solidifying existing, or creating new, narratives to keep all cats herded. Who will these owners be? What are their objectives? Is the future being pimped going to be an informational breakthrough for the masses or just a better honed control mechanism? Obviously, we hope for the former, but ...

I guess I've lived too long and seen too much. I've been cursed with red pills all my life that I can't un-see. I can only hope old Pete Townshend's political observation decades ago does not apply to AI : "Meet the new boss - same as the old boss."

Hi Steve, long time no talk .... I was wondering about Rog , last time I spoke to him he was not doing so well . Good to here you are still at it asking those tough questions about the big picture .
Take care .///Bob

 

[sdcfia]

Hi Steve, long time no talk .... I was wondering about Rog , last time I spoke to him he was not doing so well . Good to here you are still at it asking those tough questions about the big picture .
Take care .///Bob

Hi Bob, hope all is well with you - good to hear from you. I don't have any current info (email/phone) on Rog. I know he was active a year or two ago doing, stuff with some folks around Deming, NM. I don't know if he's still in NM or back in CA or elsewhere. I haven't had any sort of direct contact for 8-10 years, maybe. I disagreed with him online a few times, and I don't think he wants to talk anymore. He got a permanent ban on TNet a while back, and I don't know if he's online anywhere.

 

[sdcfia]

Hi Steve, long time no talk .... I was wondering about Rog , last time I spoke to him he was not doing so well . Good to here you are still at it asking those tough questions about the big picture .
Take care .///Bob

Hey Bob,
Saw this post on another thread today. If true, I guess it answers the question.

https://www.treasurenet.com/threads...-i-struggle-to-reconcile.681919/#post-7072376