DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

no journals Charlie, my friend, but plenty of coffee and a few narrow gauge ones.

 

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[Mastiff4me]

Join me in a cuppa coffee Marius ? Wait until the grounds settle, not using Oro's sock today.

. You know, Don Jose', I always arrive with a spare sock. Polka dots or stripes?

 

[sdcfia]

I too have found zero evidence of the existence of the "guerrilla gang"angle after searching diligently, but if someone finds some evidence proving it did exist, I'm sure we would all love to see it here. As it stands now though, it appears to be a non-starter.

Okay, let's go back to the map. Below are individual symbols each used several times on the map. I'm assuming the ridge profile-appearing line segments are indeed that, since I found the following close fit (best guess on viewer point of view). Any consensus on the symbols' interpretations?

 

[UncleMatt]

I believe the crosses represent missions, the bird's feet represent one day's travel, and the seven's represent gold. No idea about the plus signs, but the swirls might be hills or peaks.

 

[UncleMatt]

I see what could be a pictorial of VP on the map, but doesn't that area also show Geronimo Peak also had caverns and treasure? If you disagree, what is the peak shown "behind" (or east) of the VP pictorial?

 

[johnmark29020]

When I found the perfil mapa location in az. One of the corresponding maps showed two swirls. The spot noted by the swirls were rocky hills sitting in between two tributary cannon that joined together. Sitting like a island. One of them is noted on the peerfil mapa as a low peak. Left side of the map.
Imho based on what I saw . Thats what the swirl represent. A low peak sitting between two cannons.

 

[UncleMatt]

But on the treasure map rock south of Cortez, the swirls meant points to travel from and to, and as pointers, so there is variation in how swirls are used.

 

[sdcfia]

But on the treasure map rock south of Cortez, the swirls meant points to travel from and to, and as pointers, so there is variation in how swirls are used.

When people capable enough of amassing and hiding this much gold create codes for followers to use, I imagine the symbols they use might have layers of meanings. I agree that the spirals can be used as trail markers, certainly. I also suspect they represent other concepts too (site descriptors, geometric nodes, etc).

Concerning the map. I suspect ONFP failed to provide provenance for obvious reasons. After all, proof of the map's age would be strong support for Doc Noss's stories. I'd love for these stories to be true because they would be a cornerstone for treasure hunters' hopes and dreams. Here's my current feelings about the map, subject to change:

I suspect that much of what we see came from the map reportedly used by Reynolds or Douhthit to locate a major cache of gold bullion and artifacts in the Caballos. Doc Noss became involved in ways not yet clear, but he came into possession of a couple hundred gold bars and other artifacts, presumably including the map - maybe other maps, who knows? Noss wanted security for his gold and became aware of Soledad Peak across the Jornado del Muerto in the San Andres range, which had numerous caves and caverns. It was a well-known Apache campsite, and may have been used by them to cache usable valuables looted from various victims in the area in some of the caves.

When Noss moved his gold bars to the Hembrillo Basin and began his deceptions, I believe he may have created the map that we've been shown as a prop to support his claims. I suspect he may have used information from the Willie map, which I believe shows genuine particulars which he might not have even understood. In particular, the "VP, Geronimo, Peak and Bloody Hands" complex may have been added by Noss, the information coming from his explorations of the area and information provided by others. This segment of the map appears significantly different in content and detail from the remaining sites. The subsurface cross-sections, the stick figure man at the top, etc. contain much more site specific information than "necessary', particularly when compared with the remaining locations on the map - the Caballos, the Organs, the Cookes Range and the Santa Rita sites. I'd love to see a certified original map - I don't think this is it.

 

[UncleMatt]

Again though, this map did not originate with Douthit, but from a patient of Doc's at his foot clinic. No, we don't have proof of that, OR any other theory being floated here. I also think it is not valid to assume as a given that Doc was a lying con man. Yes, he mislead some people and showed some people bars that were not gold. And so what! All of that was explained as actions he took to protect himself from people who were trying to take advantage of him. So I don't operate from such ideas as if they were a matter of settled fact, as in my head they simply aren't settled at all.

 

[sdcfia]

Again though, this map did not originate with Douthit, but from a patient of Doc's at his foot clinic. No, we don't have proof of that, OR any other theory being floated here. I also think it is not valid to assume as a given that Doc was a lying con man. Yes, he mislead some people and showed some people bars that were not gold. And so what! All of that was explained as actions he took to protect himself from people who were trying to take advantage of him. So I don't operate from such ideas as if they were a matter of settled fact, as in my head they simply aren't settled at all.

On the contrary, precisely because of his verifiable known history, we know that Doc Noss was a lying con man. He may have had a very good reason for his guile, vis-a-vis the 1933 Gold Act and his desire to protect the Caballo location, but the fact remains we have seen no proof that VP contained the treasure caverns he described. Noss screwed the pooch for twelve years on other peoples' money in a rather lame effort to "raise the treasure." The "tell all" book, while valuable in many respects, missed the mark by not "settling the facts" - undoubtedly because they couldn't.

That said, VP is a dead duck, but the Caballos remain a topic worth discussing. Unless new evidence surfaces, we probably won't get the answers we'd like - just more blah-blah-blah. Some of the blah is fun though.

 

[Not Peralta]

anyone,What treasures in this area are verifiable, why are treasures in this area even open for discussion, who said there were treasures located there, what points to treasures being here, ON AND ON AND ON.
what is really verifiable?. In the 1920's is when all this started happening,thats when the knowledge and awareness of certain things of the past came into light, maybe you need to look at what was going on in the treasure world during this time period. and why this is so important to this area ,just like it is now. np

 

[txtea]

Maybe this question was answered in the Gold House Trilogy books..don't know (waiting for Santa), but has anyone located and/or talked to the guy that supposedly dynamited the passage shut "accidentally" while trying to enlarge the entrance for Doc Noss?
I recall reading his name somewhere, but that was it.
His version of that event could shed some light on all this mess.

 

[UncleMatt]

If the proof of Doc's claims were available, this thread wouldn't exist. The actions of the military, and the military eyewitness accounts, lead me to conclude there was indeed a treasure at VP, and that it was removed. When you have state officials walking right up on military equipment in the process of excavating and shoring up tunnels at VP, exactly what do you think was going on? Especially since they were denying they were doing anything at all there! What alternative explanation is there for such goings on? And that is the tip of the iceberg, there are also the statements of former military who actually helped load the gold, the lie detector results, etc. More than enough for a conclusion to be drawn that there was something there worth taking in secret.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Tis an old amiom that to discover the truth you go to the oldest data available. We have that in NP's map. It'e data is easily verifiable. and it shows the Caballo, / Victorio Peak correctly orientated. There is nothing complicated about that.

As for Willies, Noss', etc. map I don't consider that these gentlemen were Mensa materiel, but they were shrewd, their business required it. They understood that sooner or later they would have to bring out the map. So simply loaded it with useless matter and signs, so that the viewer couldn't remember it, or understand it.

Simply it, Ladies & gentlemen, The original Jesuit marks are quite visible, forget the rest.

Remember, the maps were memory stimulators only, not intended to be used for the final, precise location.

They were aware that any coded map could be solved.

 

[sdcfia]

If the proof of Doc's claims were available, this thread wouldn't exist. The actions of the military, and the military eyewitness accounts, lead me to conclude there was indeed a treasure at VP, and that it was removed. When you have state officials walking right up on military equipment in the process of excavating and shoring up tunnels at VP, exactly what do you think was going on? Especially since they were denying they were doing anything at all there! What alternative explanation is there for such goings on? And that is the tip of the iceberg, there are also the statements of former military who actually helped load the gold, the lie detector results, etc. More than enough for a conclusion to be drawn that there was something there worth taking in secret.

Remember, this thread asks where Doc's gold came from, the Caballos or Victorio Peak. We know Noss had a couple hundred bars of gold and that he sold or traded some bars to buyers or folks he owed favors to, such as Samaniego, Jolley and several others. There's little doubt about that. When the Denver mint stiffed him, he realized that the Gold Act indeed had teeth, and that he would have increasing trouble trying to turn the bars into cash - people were on to him. He needed money to keep going, so he turned to bilking investors for beans for years, apparently waiting for things to change with private gold possession laws. It never did, and in 1949, he went for broke with the Mexican smuggling plan with Ryan. That was the end for Doc and the treasure of Victorio Peak, even though there may still be some gold bars hidden in the greasewood around the peak that Doc never got back to.

If there were any large amounts of gold handled by the military at VP, then I believe is was WWII plunder being shuffled around by the brass for black ops and political payoffs. I imagine the military knew all along that the Noss caves were empty. It's funny that Noss died in 1949, then during the mid 1950s a constant parade of GI's from Holloman AFB searched every inch of that mountain looking for gold, including in the then-empty Fiege/Swanner caves, after publication of Henry James' book in 1953. In 1958, voila, the Fiege incident occurred and the Swanner confession followed some years later. How did those 100 gold bars get into the previously empty Fiege cave? If these GI's were seeing bars of gold, then they were European: numbered, stamped shiny refined bullion bars, not darkened dore bars from "Padre LaRue". Sounds like the Fiege party may have stumbled onto recently stashed contraband and assumed it was Spanish treasure. We don't know what went down, but when the Fiege bunch went back a couple of years later to claim their prize, "they couldn't find it." Darn!

Here's the bug bite: there is not one photograph of the VP bullion by Noss, who claimed he was in the caverns via the top shaft or by using his "secret entrance" dozens of times over several years. He seemed to take pictures of everything else, why not the treasure? Swanner? Maybe he did feel guilty about his secret job moving gold. If so, he wasn't crying tears for Ova; instead, it was probably tears for the families in Europe who were ripped off by our military after the war. Or, maybe he was nuts and dreamed the whole thing up. Sure, his name is in the cave - along with many other GI's. If he wanted people to believe him about the gold bars, why didn't he take a photo? Thousands of bars of gold stacked like cord wood and nobody snapped a picture.

 

[gollum]

Remember, this thread asks where Doc's gold came from, the Caballos or Victorio Peak. We know Noss had a couple hundred bars of gold and that he sold or traded some bars to buyers or folks he owed favors to, such as Samaniego, Jolley and several others. There's little doubt about that. When the Denver mint stiffed him, he realized that the Gold Act indeed had teeth, and that he would have increasing trouble trying to turn the bars into cash - people were on to him. He needed money to keep going, so he turned to bilking investors for beans for years, apparently waiting for things to change with private gold possession laws. It never did, and in 1949, he went for broke with the Mexican smuggling plan with Ryan. That was the end for Doc and the treasure of Victorio Peak, even though there may still be some gold bars hidden in the greasewood around the peak that Doc never got back to.

If there were any large amounts of gold handled by the military at VP, then I believe is was WWII plunder being shuffled around by the brass for black ops and political payoffs. I imagine the military knew all along that the Noss caves were empty. It's funny that Noss died in 1949, then during the mid 1950s a constant parade of GI's from Holloman AFB searched every inch of that mountain looking for gold, including in the then-empty Fiege/Swanner caves, after publication of Henry James' book in 1953. In 1958, voila, the Fiege incident occurred and the Swanner confession followed some years later. How did those 100 gold bars get into the previously empty Fiege cave? If these GI's were seeing bars of gold, then they were European: numbered, stamped shiny refined bullion bars, not darkened dore bars from "Padre LaRue". Sounds like the Fiege party may have stumbled onto recently stashed contraband and assumed it was Spanish treasure. We don't know what went down, but when the Fiege bunch went back a couple of years later to claim their prize, "they couldn't find it." Darn!

Here's the bug bite: there is not one photograph of the VP bullion by Noss, who claimed he was in the caverns via the top shaft or by using his "secret entrance" dozens of times over several years. He seemed to take pictures of everything else, why not the treasure? Swanner? Maybe he did feel guilty about his secret job moving gold. If so, he wasn't crying tears for Ova; instead, it was probably tears for the families in Europe who were ripped off by our military after the war. Or, maybe he was nuts and dreamed the whole thing up. Sure, his name is in the cave - along with many other GI's. If he wanted people to believe him about the gold bars, why didn't he take a photo? Thousands of bars of gold stacked like cord wood and nobody snapped a picture.

Actually, Doc did take photos of the treasure in situ, but alas, one person that was involved has/had those pics. That person chooses to keep them to himself. I am not at liberty to give the person's name.

Mike

 

[johnmark29020]

But on the treasure map rock south of Cortez, the swirls meant points to travel from and to, and as pointers, so there is variation in how swirls are used.

Points of travel. I didnt think of that,but it makes sense. Considering the cave and mines were im both of the cannons that joined together.

 

[sdcfia]

Actually, Doc did take photos of the treasure in situ, but alas, one person that was involved has/had those pics. That person chooses to keep them to himself. I am not at liberty to give the person's name.

Mike

Well, when those photographs are revealed, then they will be considered. Until then, "Alas, I'm not at liberty," does not feed the bulldog or add to the conversation.

 

[UncleMatt]

Then neither do any other unsupported theories or assumptions....

 

[sdcfia]

Then neither do any other unsupported theories or assumptions....

Forum: a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

My postulations are merely discussion points, dude, based solely on the circumstantial evidence and hearsay we have - or should I say lack of verifiable hard evidence? My comments are meant to stimulate conversation and alternative theories, and, ironically, the Clarence book provides a boatload of food for thought concerning what really happened during the Noss years. Right now, there are a lot of gaps. It all boils down to what you are willing to settle for.

By the way, nowhere have I claimed to possess "proof" based on "privileged information" that won't be shared.