DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[Real of Tayopa]

Hi DIT luv, going back to basics, is there a deposit / deposits in the Caballo ? According to the lil map that NP ( where n ell is he ? ) sent Me, which is correct in many detail that were not known until I had discovered Tayopa,it is authentic, since to my satisfaction, it contains data that only I knew was true at the time, the deposits do exist, and have not been recovered. The sheer magnitude precludes that.

 

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[markmar]

Hi DIT luv, going back to basics, is there a deposit / deposits in the Caballo ? According to the lil map that NP ( where n ell is he ? ) sent Me, which is correct in many detail that were not known until I had discovered Tayopa,it is authentic, since to my satisfaction, it contains data that only I knew was true at the time, the deposits do exist, and have not been recovered. The sheer magnitude precludes that.

View attachment 1447995View attachment 1447996

Is true Don Jose .
But here another question come : If you would know where that place in Caballo is , what you would do ?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

ola Marius, my grick friend. That depends, in my present physical condition, nothing, but if circumstances were changed, I would try for a partial recovery. A full recovery would be imposbsile today.

 

[whiskeyrat]

So, lots of discussion here over the years debating if Spanish ever found gold in Northern Mexico or Southern New Mexico.
Read a book this week I would recommend to everyone "New Mexico Confidential".
The treasure story ends up being the anti climax. The latter 1/2 of the book is very interesting.

One of the things that pops up (according to this book) is that after the Discovery of the Atocha spanish treasure galleon in 1985 by Mel Fisher, Mel Fishers group contacted "codebreakers" a group studying old egyptian and spanish markings in Grant county New Mexico. This book says he contacted them because of gold bars and coins that were found on the Atocha were thought (does not say how they came to this conclusion, but gold does have a figerprint), to come from South western New Mexico in the area of Grant County.

Now nobody would say that spanish treasure galleons did not exist. Well, they had to get the gold from somewhere.
Another interesting claim in this book is that mines in SW New Mexico (then owned by Spain) had gold deposits that were almost pure gold. Huge gold vugs.
Says they cut the gold off in bars almost pure, no smelting.
So on the Atocha were found crude gold bars that were about 90 percent pure (almost 22 carat). Way above the smelting capabilities in 1622 I think.
So, my brain is kinda sayin well maybe it is possible that there were large hordes of gold in South West New Mexico and the spanish were coming over here and getting it and shipping it back to spain.
Well, it had to be accumulated someplace, waiting for the ships to arrive.
In my mind, this kinda, sorta says that it is possible for large accumulations of gold were occuring in SW New Mexico (then New Spain) and northern Mexico awaiting shipping to Spain.
WR
No, this does not prove anything, but its pretty damn interesting if its all true.

 

[whiskeyrat]

another bar "from the atocha" almost pure gold.
no assayer mark indicating it belonged to the church or the kings 1/5.

i dont think they could smelt gold of this purity in 1622.
so it seems to indicate that there were huge sources of pure or almost pure gold somewhere that we cant even imagine today.
we grovel around to extract gold at $8 per ton today.
this bar is said to be from the atocha and 23.5 karat.
wr??

 

[sdcfia]

So, lots of discussion here over the years debating if Spanish ever found gold in Northern Mexico or Southern New Mexico.
Read a book this week I would recommend to everyone "New Mexico Confidential".
The treasure story ends up being the anti climax. The latter 1/2 of the book is very interesting.

One of the things that pops up (according to this book) is that after the Discovery of the Atocha spanish treasure galleon in 1985 by Mel Fisher, Mel Fishers group contacted "codebreakers" a group studying old egyptian and spanish markings in Grant county New Mexico. This book says he contacted them because of gold bars and coins that were found on the Atocha were thought (does not say how they came to this conclusion, but gold does have a figerprint), to come from South western New Mexico in the area of Grant County.

Now nobody would say that spanish treasure galleons did not exist. Well, they had to get the gold from somewhere.
Another interesting claim in this book is that mines in SW New Mexico (then owned by Spain) had gold deposits that were almost pure gold. Huge gold vugs.
Says they cut the gold off in bars almost pure, no smelting.
So on the Atocha were found crude gold bars that were about 90 percent pure (almost 22 carat). Way above the smelting capabilities in 1622 I think.
So, my brain is kinda sayin well maybe it is possible that there were large hordes of gold in South West New Mexico and the spanish were coming over here and getting it and shipping it back to spain.
Well, it had to be accumulated someplace, waiting for the ships to arrive.
In my mind, this kinda, sorta says that it is possible for large accumulations of gold were occuring in SW New Mexico (then New Spain) and northern Mexico awaiting shipping to Spain.
WR
No, this does not prove anything, but its pretty damn interesting if its all true.

View attachment 1448179View attachment 1448180View attachment 1448181

Nice post. It is alleged that the gold deposit you're speaking of was neither discovered nor "owned" by the Spanish crown's agents, but instead may have been revealed to Marcos de Niza ca 1539, then exploited 1540-1545 by a group of free agents that included a "Royal engineer", European miners and a number of professional soldiers. How a portion of the bullion found itself on the Atocha is unknown. Interestingly, it is alleged that the emeralds found with the ship's wreckage also originated in SW New Mexico, not Columbia.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

I might add that most of the bars in large deposits were Dore bars,. The individual mines just did not have the abilities or equipment to refine the 'gold, or silver.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

It's been stated here before, but part of the conditions for going to the new world from spain was the study of the book del ray metalica, even if you were a soldier or farmer or a grain grinder
you had to study this book and have some knowledge of spotting mineral deposits, this book also shows techniques which are still used today to smelt and refine
all types of metals, southwestern New Mexico is rich in all the Minerals needed to refine gold to 24 karat.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

yES sCATT, dE RE mETALICA WAS tHE bIBLE ON MINING FOR OVER 20YEARS. mUCH OF THE FIRE ASSAYING IS STILL USED TODAY, BUT HAS EEN SUPERSEDED TODAy. I USED MANY OF THE TECHNIQUES IN MY ASSAY WORK. tHEY ARE STlL USEFUL " IN THE BalL PARK?*

 

[whiskeyrat]

Nice post. It is alleged that the gold deposit you're speaking of was neither discovered nor "owned" by the Spanish crown's agents, but instead may have been revealed to Marcos de Niza ca 1539, then exploited 1540-1545 by a group of free agents that included a "Royal engineer", European miners and a number of professional soldiers. How a portion of the bullion found itself on the Atocha is unknown. Interestingly, it is alleged that the emeralds found with the ship's wreckage also originated in SW New Mexico, not Columbia.

So, if this "mine" were exploited in 1540 to 1545 and the gold bars ended up being loaded onto the Atocha in 1622, those bars must have been stored somewhere for about 80 years, then transported to a location that could load them on a barge, take them to the gulf of Mexico, load them on a Spanish treasure Galleon, and set sail. Or they could have been transported to the Caballos shortly after being mined, stored in a vault in Burbank Canyon for 80 years with many thousands of other bars, then loaded on the barges and sent down the Rio Grande to be loaded the Atocha. (ha ha, had to throw Burbank Canyon in there to keep my hopes up).
Also, bars mined and/or minted in Northern Mexico (say the old Tayopa mines that my friend RDT3 is trying to open) could also have been transported to these vaults in Burbank Canyon to await shipping to Spain.
And before that, awaited shipping to King Soloman.
Its beginning to be plausible.

Yes, I know its only a theory at this time. But when I find a bar in the Caballos, or Organs, or Sierra Madres, with the same markings on it that Mell Fisher found on the bars on the Atocha it might just be the missing link.
wr

 

[sdcfia]

... i dont think they could smelt gold of this purity in 1622.
so it seems to indicate that there were huge sources of pure or almost pure gold somewhere that we cant even imagine today....
wr??

The unproven legend referred to earlier is that native gold was located in very large quantities within a cavern system and simply harvested. No need for mining, reduction, refining or smelting of complex or even simple ores.

 

[sdcfia]

So, if this "mine" were exploited in 1540 to 1545 and the gold bars ended up being loaded onto the Atocha in 1622, those bars must have been stored somewhere for about 80 years, then transported to a location that could load them on a barge, take them to the gulf of Mexico, load them on a Spanish treasure Galleon, and set sail. Or they could have been transported to the Caballos shortly after being mined, stored in a vault in Burbank Canyon for 80 years with many thousands of other bars, then loaded on the barges and sent down the Rio Grande to be loaded the Atocha. (ha ha, had to throw Burbank Canyon in there to keep my hopes up).
Also, bars mined and/or minted in Northern Mexico (say the old Tayopa mines that my friend RDT3 is trying to open) could also have been transported to these vaults in Burbank Canyon to await shipping to Spain.
And before that, awaited shipping to King Soloman.
Its beginning to be plausible.

Yes, I know its only a theory at this time. But when I find a bar in the Caballos, or Organs, or Sierra Madres, with the same markings on it that Mell Fisher found on the bars on the Atocha it might just be the missing link.
wr

Yes, if this legend is true, it clearly provides a plausible explanation for where all the alleged gold described in the Caballo/Soledad legends may have originated. Based on known mining history and proven mineral potentials, we know that, generally speaking, the Santa Rita/Pinos Altos is clearly the most likely source in southern New Mexico for the gold. There still exists an easy trail from Santa Rita straight east to the Caballos. Then, theoretically, a water route to the mouth of the Rio Grande followed by a ship voyage to Cartegena to load for a European passage would be easy compared to an overland journey through all of Mexico and Central America. However, before I would endorse this scenario, I would have to have a much better picture of who the players were. Fisher was no dummy - too bad we don't have any more information about his theories.

I strongly disagree with RDT3's Jesuit explanation for reasons that I've detailed in these forums previously. His argument is based not on logistics and other factors, but entirely on NP's "Noss map", which I have little if any faith in.

 

[jbeene65]

i dont know if any gold bars have actually been found in the Caballos...but i do know there had to have been alot of placer gold there over the years. i believe if there was any gold stored stored i. the Caballos, it was mined in the Caballos

 

[whiskeyrat]

i dont know if any gold bars have actually been found in the Caballos...but i do know there had to have been alot of placer gold there over the years. i believe if there was any gold stored stored i. the Caballos, it was mined in the CaballosView attachment 1448792

Thats a nice days worth of placer gold. Id say your in a good spot.

 

[UncleMatt]

Whiskeyrat, were there any references to sources for those claims of pure gold being found by the Spanish in SW New Mexico?

 

[Dirt1955]

The book referred to by Whiskeyrat. "New Mexico Confidential" is sprinkled throughout with all the theories from Ophir, Spanish, Indian, Templar, KGC gold having been mined or deposited in New Mexico through the ages. The writer gives no evidence, other than played out tunnels where gold/silver was mined or hoarded for safe keeping. This book is what put me in contact with Roger S The information I received from him regarding Templar connections (a lot of info) could not be verified or turned out to be false. I like Whiskeyrats mindset. Leave no stone unturned. The route from Santa Rita to Caballos is likely where any evidence of a connection will be found if one exists. The book is readily available on Amazon. I have copy I will loan. Pm me if interested.

 

[sdcfia]

The book referred to by Whiskeyrat. "New Mexico Confidential" is sprinkled throughout with all the theories from Ophir, Spanish, Indian, Templar, KGC gold having been mined or deposited in New Mexico through the ages. The writer gives no evidence, other than played out tunnels where gold/silver was mined or hoarded for safe keeping. This book is what put me in contact with Roger S The information I received from him regarding Templar connections (a lot of info) could not be verified or turned out to be false. I like Whiskeyrats mindset. Leave no stone unturned. The route from Santa Rita to Caballos is likely where any evidence of a connection will be found if one exists. The book is readily available on Amazon. I have copy I will loan. Pm me if interested.

The trails between Santa Rita and the Caballos were already long-existing when Emory, Kearney and others used one of them during the Mexican War days. The route is mapped and described in detail in Emory's Notes of a Military Reconnaissance. Kit Carson also used it when he used to winter in Santa Rita, coming down from Taos. These are the easiest grades crossing the lower Black Range north of Cookes Peak.

There's a second, older route that follows parts of the later Butterfield Trail south of Cookes Peak, then runs NNE to the Caballos near the Palomas Gap vicinity. The Cookes Canyon part of the trail passes some very compelling petroglyph sites. The NNE-running section is called "Camino de Retorno." I'm not aware of anyone who has traversed the Retorno route in modern times.

 

[mdog]

The book referred to by Whiskeyrat. "New Mexico Confidential" is sprinkled throughout with all the theories from Ophir, Spanish, Indian, Templar, KGC gold having been mined or deposited in New Mexico through the ages. The writer gives no evidence, other than played out tunnels where gold/silver was mined or hoarded for safe keeping. This book is what put me in contact with Roger S The information I received from him regarding Templar connections (a lot of info) could not be verified or turned out to be false. I like Whiskeyrats mindset. Leave no stone unturned. The route from Santa Rita to Caballos is likely where any evidence of a connection will be found if one exists. The book is readily available on Amazon. I have copy I will loan. Pm me if interested.

I've read this book several times and, in my opinion, it's the best treasure hunting book ever written. Anybody who is thinking about chasing one of the popular treasure legends, should read "New Mexico Confidential". I thought the "organization" information was well worth the price of the book. That information proved very valuable in my research.

 

[whiskeyrat]

The trails between Santa Rita and the Caballos were already long-existing when Emory, Kearney and others used one of them during the Mexican War days. The route is mapped and described in detail in Emory's Notes of a Military Reconnaissance. Kit Carson also used it when he used to winter in Santa Rita, coming down from Taos. These are the easiest grades crossing the lower Black Range north of Cookes Peak.

There's a second, older route that follows parts of the later Butterfield Trail south of Cookes Peak, then runs NNE to the Caballos near the Palomas Gap vicinity. The Cookes Canyon part of the trail passes some very compelling petroglyph sites. The NNE-running section is called "Camino de Retorno." I'm not aware of anyone who has traversed the Retorno route in modern times.

The area around Cookes Peak contains many glyphs which are indicated in the book to be part of a very complex marking system for locating the cache sites etc.
So it seems if gold was moved to the Caballos for caching it seems they would have continued the petroglyphs to mark the cache sites in the caballos.
To date I have not found any petroglyphs in the Caballos. I have found some in the southern Caballos which do match the glyphs in the book near Cookes Canyon.
I will be giving these a better investigation for sure now.

I have read that most or all of the markings that did exist in the Caballos have been detroyed.
Does anyone know of any existing petroglyphs in the Caballos

Something encouraging from the book was that they used many redundant marking systems to locate the same cache sites.
So possibly even though the glyphs and marker rocks have been destroyed, if one can determine the other type of markings discussed in the book, it may still be possible to locate a cache site or two or three.

I guess when the 2 black choppers followed me down and waited for me to load and leave, I must have gotten too close to the main deposit and was being warned away.

It would be interesting to walk those old routes and see how far the petroglyphs continue.
I think I will get that Emory book and plot the route.
wr

 

[Real of Tayopa]

So you disagree with SDC be my guest, : encourage it.: It is not entirely on NP lil map, although that tended to cinch it, none of the Caballo mt can be versified by conventional means, nor can Tayopa, but by using non conventional postulations I have found it, same for the general location of the three depositories of the Jesuits. Yes, you may disagree with me freely and possibly be more correctly.since we are dealing with a subject that in not verifiable by conventional means, but so far what Little evidence we have points to my postulation.+
As a matter of fact,we still do not have a verifiable source for Doc's supposed find.

But yes, I encourage fault finding in any of my statements, I am not perfect,despite ______________