DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[Real of Tayopa]

Whisky rat, So first I had to find Tayopa. Which I did (hey RDT3 its not that hard to find, just a simple google search) ha ha Of course not after I had found it, however it stumped the best for overr6400 years

 

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[whiskeyrat]

Per the Google Earth Pro path measuring tool, the land route/river routes to the mouth of the Rio Grande from the alleged general location of the Tayopa mine (I chose Yecora MX as a starting point). I inflated all distances by 25% to account for all the twists and turns encountered on land. I used the published length of the Rio Grande border measurement.

Option 1, easterly route. Yecora to La Junta MX (rough mountains 150 miles), then to Chihuahua MX (moderate hilly 125 miles), then to Ojinaga MX (mild desert terrain 150 miles), then by barge to the Gulf of Mexico (950 miles). 425 land miles, 950 river miles.

Option 2, northerly route. Yecora to Moctezuma MX (rough mountains 150 miles), then to Agua Prieta MX (moderate hilly 150 miles), then to El Paso TX or Mesilla NM (mild desert terrain 250 miles), then by barge to the Gulf of Mexico (1,250 miles). 550 land miles, 1,250 river miles.

Option 3, westerly route. Yecora to Tecoripa MX (rough mountains 100 miles), then to the Sea of Cortez (mild desert terrain 175 miles), then by ship to Panama (2,500 miles), then across Panama (60 miles to Gulf of Mexico). 325 land miles, 2,500 sea miles.

Option 1: Why cross Chihuahua and the Camino Real, controlled by Franciscans and Spanish? Unlikely.

Option 2: Why journey into New Mexico in the first place - no supplies available, a Franciscan stronghold, the Rio Grande controlled by the Spanish, and all of it teeming with Apaches, who were at war with all of them? In addition, why add 100 miles of land and 100 miles of river travel by continuing north to the Caballo Range? Unlikely.

Option 3: Less land travel. Sea travel is quicker and easier than river barging. More likely.

It's not impossible, but it's hard to accept that the Jesuits would move precious metal to the Caballos from Mexico. There well may be caches in the Caballos, but it seems unlikely they came from Mexico. As always, I could be wrong, but all I see that supports the idea is that suspicious map and some wishful thinking.

Very nice:

Option 1: 425 land miles, 950 river miles:
mules make 10 miles/day so land travel is 43 days. Rio Grande flows 48 miles per day (2 mph) so river travel is 20 days. Total time 63 days.

Option 2: 550 land miles, 1250 river miles:
land travel is 55 days, river travel is 26 days. Total time 81 days.

option 3: 325 land miles, 2500 sea miles
land travel is 32 days. Sea travel (100 miles per day possible) is 25 days. Total time 57 days.

Option 3 seems logical if time is the determining factor.

I had chosen Santa Ana as the location of Tayopa which is about 200 miles north west of your chosen Tayopa.

good stuff

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Whisky rat, So first I had to find Tayopa. Which I did (hey RDT3 its not that hard to find, just a simple google search) ha ha Of course not after I had found it, however it stumped the best for overr6400 years

 

[sdcfia]

sdc/ whiskey rat "Gentlemen you have thr right idea but Goole earth is absolutely useless for estimating animal travel. In the sierras I have seldom encountered an animal trail that goes straight for even 100 ft, In the remote Sierras I have spent a hard day with my mule yet that night camped within a 1/4 mile o my previous camp, The trails do not go straight up and down, they zigzag. up and sown. Incidentaly here are a few pitures that may give you an idea of that country. he flat lands occur from Chihuahua on.

Incidentally why do you say alegded Sdc.?

I absolutely agree with the difficulty traversing mountain trails, especially driving livestock. That's why, to me, the fewer land miles to haul stuff, the better. Also important in this debate would be the Jesuits' potential for encountering difficulties with the Spanish Crown, the Franciscan Order, the Apache and the separation from their secure bases if they were attempting the long trip to New Mexico. That's why it seems to me that Option 3 would have been a more likely choice ... if they were trying to ship precious metals, that is.

I say alleged because I haven't seen any convincing evidence that confirms recovery of the riches described in the Tayopa tales. I don't doubt you have located evidence of old silver mines in the area. Perhaps the description of the Tayopa mine output was exaggerated.

 

[whiskeyrat]

Whisky rat, So first I had to find Tayopa. Which I did (hey RDT3 its not that hard to find, just a simple google search) ha ha Of course not after I had found it, however it stumped the best for overr6400 years

I realize that. You are the best.
So is Santa Ana the correct area?

 

[whiskeyrat]

I absolutely agree with the difficulty traversing mountain trails, especially driving livestock. That's why, to me, the fewer land miles to haul stuff, the better. Also important in this debate would be the Jesuits' potential for encountering difficulties with the Spanish Crown, the Franciscan Order, the Apache and the separation from their secure bases if they were attempting the long trip to New Mexico. That's why it seems to me that Option 3 would have been a more likely choice ... if they were trying to ship precious metals, that is.

I say alleged because I haven't seen any convincing evidence that confirms recovery of the riches described in the Tayopa tales. I don't doubt you have located evidence of old silver mines in the area. Perhaps the description of the Tayopa mine output was exaggerated.

I think we have seen convincing evidence of massive amounts of gold and silver that was mined in the Americas and attempted shipping back to Spain. There are over 2000 shipwrecks in the ocean bottoms of the ships that did not make it.
Many, many, many massive recoveries have been made of these ships and most still have not been recovered.
And more ships did not sink than did sink. So where did all this gold in the americas come from??

But the point is, all these tons and tons and tons of gold and silver came out of the ground in mines like Tayopa etc in the Americas.
There had to be mines so much more rich than we know about today. Today we have to mines tons of dirt to get a few ounces of gold.
In the beginning, there must have been mines that were beyond what we can imagine to produce the tons of gold that were gathered.
And it all still exists somewhere on this planet. Moved around by whom ever could conquer it at the time. Its the same gold, just going round and round.

I dont know, maybe Im just hoping it came from somewhere in the southwest, so my quest is justified?
Maybe Ive just had to much whiskey.
good day.

 

[mdog]

Nothing concrete as usual just the same legends and "old maps and weigh bill from Mexico".
But what caught my mind was the claim by the group "codebreakers" that Mel Fisher found 22 carat plus purity gold bars on the Atocha.
And that he had reason to believe they came from SW New Mexico. He, to me, is a very credible person.
It is for sure that the almost pure gold bars were found in the wreck. That is not some fairy tale.
That ship sank in 1622. Again, in my mind they did not smelt gold in 1622 to a purity approaching 24 carat.
So, im concluding that they found very pure gold in native form sometime before 1622 to make those particular gold bars.

No proof offered but some compelling real evidence at least.

I don't know how Fisher was directed to New Mexico as the source of gold on the Atocha, but this link might offer an explanation.

http://economics.yale.edu/sites/def...nars/Economic-History/nogues-marco-110321.pdf

Maybe Fisher found evidence of the gold's source in documents from some merchant smuggler.

I'll post this link on Randy Bradford's link about Treasure Mountain because it could show why there might have been some cooperation between Spanish miners, in the southwest, and the French of Canada and Louisiana.

 

[jbeene65]

I think we have seen convincing evidence of massive amounts of gold and silver that was mined in the Americas and attempted shipping back to Spain. There are over 2000 shipwrecks in the ocean bottoms of the ships that did not make it.
Many, many, many massive recoveries have been made of these ships and most still have not been recovered.
And more ships did not sink than did sink. So where did all this gold in the americas come from??

But the point is, all these tons and tons and tons of gold and silver came out of the ground in mines like Tayopa etc in the Americas.
There had to be mines so much more rich than we know about today. Today we have to mines tons of dirt to get a few ounces of gold.
In the beginning, there must have been mines that were beyond what we can imagine to produce the tons of gold that were gathered.
And it all still exists somewhere on this planet. Moved around by whom ever could conquer it at the time. Its the same gold, just going round and round.

I dont know, maybe Im just hoping it came from somewhere in the southwest, so my quest is justified?
Maybe Ive just had to much whiskey.
good day.

Im very disappointed in you WR. You can never have too much whiskey

 

[Real of Tayopa]

No sdc, the stories of Tayopa were / are true. It only operated for a few years when the Indian uprising across the Sierras caused the Padres ( coadjutors ) to close it up and flee the area, fully intending to return when things quieted down, but they hid it too well, they never found / reopened it again. When you see the area you realize why.I have left Tayopa closed and used Doppler radar to locate it , and the escape passage from above. It is beyond my financial capacity to clean it up, so I have tp be content with the knowledge that I have indeed found it, and filled in part of the early history of the Jesuit operations in North America,
.
Whisy rat, Santana was Tayops no. 2, The original was at Guanopo / Guaynopita.. The true Tayopa was located south of Santanna. The main problem in finding Tayopa was due to the mixing of the three Tayopa stories, they are in different areas. Tayopa no.3 had not been in in production very many years, but it quickly gained it's reputation of being the Richest mine in North America...

 

[markmar]

sdcfia

Why Caballos ? From what the lil map shows , there was deposited too , gold which was coming from NW and north of Gila river ( the fox heart ) .
To have two almacen close to the Rio Grande for two different sources ? Unlikely .

 

[UncleMatt]

I might add the Peraltas carved maps on boulders, put ax heads on the tops of cactus as directional signs, inscribed leather with directions to the X-marks the spot,pirates,outlaws,solders,Mormans,prospectors,etc. drew real maps.
Their are plenty of authenic maps out their , as their are fake maps and fake waybills...Treasure hunting ain"t easy but it can be done with success like anything else, with a real map.

That is the stories we are told, no one has ever proven that the Peraltas even existed with regard to anything going on in the state of Arizona, let alone that they did any of that other stuff.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

That should read 400 years, not 6400.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

That should read 400 years, not 6400.

 

[motel6.5]

Uncle Matt, you may be correct in your opinion on the Peraltas, but like when we roll the dice here in Vegas sometimes Snake Eyes show up, and show us when its time to quit.

 

[whiskeyrat]

3 years ago, NP started this thread with I think good intentions. He/she released some prior unseen "maps" and made no claims other than challenge us on tnet to contribute, figure it out, have some fun, see if this is real. Fallow tgw clues into the Cabalo Mountains and maybe together solve some of these newly disclosed maps.

Then, Roger Snow got involved and was willing to disclose much information from his life time of being involved in the mountains of New Mexico (mostly the Organ mountains).
Others became involved and for a couple of years, we all tried to work together to solve some of these mysteries.

In the recent past, it seems there has been a lot of disillusionment from not getting instant gratification, not finding hordes of gold in easily accessible places and not verifying mysterious old maps as true.

When I became involved in this, I decided it might 10 years to figure this out and set out accordingly.
I am still gaining knowledge each and every day. Have met some incredibly experienced and knowledgable people about south west new mexico and the Caballo mountains.
everyone I meet seems willing to try and contribute to solving the mysteries.
We are having a great time and seeing some unbelievable canyons, caves and artifacts.

Unfortunately NP seems to have disappeared (no response on this site or in private), Roger has been banned (although he still communicates privately, is willing to help, and does read this thread).

My recent learning is taking me more away from the haphazard some lucky miner found tons of gold and hid it in a cave, toward the very organized raping of america by well informed forces for various reasons and highly controlled cashes of gold for future endeavors.
I think Willy, Buster, Doc, Renyolds, Drolte, were most likely all minions to some extent of this organized effort to get all the worlds gold. I dont claim to know what part they played (yet) but seems they were all minions in the grand effort.

Seems the Spanish were very organized, cataloged, dated and recorded every bar ever cast, knew exactly who mined it, who owned it, where it was at all times. Each bar was numbered, assayed and registered.
Prior to the Spanish, possibly the Aztecs etc were doing the same for King Soloman.

Yes I think there are caches still out there, yes I think there are piles of bars that the Apaches raided and buried in caves, etc. I think the stories of bars found can be true, but the players might not have been innocent "deer hunters".
I think there are dead mules with gold bars laying next to there bones.
Since 1933, anyone finding this stuff can not come forward to verify anything or his find will be confiscated. So no, there is no verification of anything.

So, im just rambling on here, but I think our time would be better served trying to solve these mysteries together as we were 3 years ago.
I have another 7 years in my 10 year commitment. Pressing onward.

My offer still stands, if someone has a lead, I will follow it up. If it is correct we will both profit.
I have walked untold miles and climbed untold vertical feet the last 3 years and plan on even more in the next 3.
If nothing ever comes of it, the adventure is worth the effort.

In the end, maybe I will publish a book "100 places where its not"
wr

 

[motel6.5]

In 2013 I was on I-25, outside Sorocco, East of the Rio-Grande,{original},pulled over to take a break in a cut-out dirt area on the South side of I-25, ,no fenceing there, so I walked down a small slope that went into a wider dried up creek bed, and I walked right into some very old broken bleached out bones and rib cage half buried in the sand.
I may have posted it on this site back then. In retrospect I probably should have explored this area, but a pickup truck was wizzing back and forth by my truck,so I left.

 

[sdcfia]

I agree with a lot of what you say, rat. The best story I ever heard about the Caballos allegedly occurred during the 1960s in the lower part of that canyon that had the old steel cable coming down from up above. That's where I'd look around. Take it for what it's worth - maybe nothing. I don't want anything except for you to be careful and stay safe.

Long story short: a guy found a concealed cave full of gold bars, skeletons and snakes near a sheave block bolted into a big rock. He killed two "watchers" who had followed him, put their bodies in the hole, removed some of the gold, covered the hole up, and then drove straight back to east Texas where he bought a house and stayed drunk and paranoid the rest of his life. His family thought he had robbed a bank or something because he always had loads of money. I got the story from the guy's nephew about 1982. If I hadn't been so caught up with my own obsession in the Santa Rita area for years, I'd have gone to have a look, but I never did. It seems to me that a lot of folks have looked in that canyon, but the nephew knew that the uncle's cave was still intact in 1982.

 

[UncleMatt]

The problem is that Roger Snow just posted a lot of claims with zero evidence to back up any of them. Doing so did not serve in any way to answer any questions about NP's map, or anything else related to Doc Noss or anything else. And nothing he ever claimed here has ever been proven factual. I think it is a mistake to keep bringing him him and pretending he added anything of substance to this thread or the topic.

 

[motel6.5]

I don"t believe Roger Snow was B.S., He had at least 1 younger family member murdered.and his house ransacked,
with many items related to treasure hunting stolen...
Sdifca,that is a very interesting story you told. I do believe their are still many more unfound caves in those mountains with forgotten treasures...and watchers are a problem,and a larger issue is how to deal with them if they think you found some treasures.That is 1 reason I took off as I stated in my above post.When I was in the White Sands area I saw a very old historic sign that read El-Camino Real trail,sorta of tilted and standing on its last legs.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

Yeah, That story has allways intrigued me, the nephew supposedly went looking for the cave but also ran into some '' watchers''
I think he found the sheave and took a picture and the uncle was supposed to point out where the cave was from the picture, but the nephew wasnt
that into it, or was to involved with college or something of that nature. I live in east texas wished I knew who that uncle was.