DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[Real of Tayopa]

SDC, you posted --- Jesuits (big ha ha).

Then how do you explainn NP's lil map ?

 

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[whiskeyrat]

WR, I was thinking about the geology overall, versus the mines themselves. I have personally seen a faint mine that my buddy and I found in the Caballos all but disappear only 1 year after we first found it. It was very old - no metal trash whatsoever, and dug right along a crumbly vein. Marked with a single "eye catcher" rock on bedrock and with light visible under it. That's sort of what I mean by "in plain sight", but that one was a very small example. There are huge ones, but they must be earned with many a sacrifice on the altar of Asolo... We could see that the area had been mined back in an open-face sort of way, too. The second year, we smashed down the big dangerous hanging rock at the entrance (entrance was no longer visible after just a year!), mucked out the entrance, and my buddy took a look. No stacks of bars, but definitely a genuine old working in an area rumored to have wire Gold in addition to the obvious copper oxides. Here's a hint for a medium one: look around the old shrine that some (!$^@) dug out and did not re-fill at the head of the Shandon placer. There's a good one near there. More like coffee table sized. Of course the well-documented rabbit/donkey ears or whatever in the Caballos are likely 1/2 natural, 1/2 constructed. Someone posted a lot of great pics of those in another thread.

Regarding eyes - yes, "the eyes will be upon you". Cedar stump carvings don't last IMHO. Just ask about all the stuff that used to be in the Hackberry grove, too. There are stone eyes (arches) in the mountains, but not so many in the Caballos as other local ranges. Then there's all the square-eye cornstalk petroglyph stuff regionally, but not in the Caballos main bulk, per se.

I can smell even a faint whiff of mineral. Remember, I am mostly a rock-stomper. Even obliterated mines have associated geology, and scraps of ore and gangue, however faint, still tell their tale.

I, too, will be stomping around in that timeframe. First one to call the other out by their TNet handle is owed a green chile cheeseburger - but not at that annoyingly overpopular Hatch joint or overpriced De La Vega's.

nmth:
I accept your challenge for the green chile cheeseburger. A hint for you: i seem to find myself up very high a lot, like between the 2nd and 3rd vertical. "above the iron" if you know what I mean. Seems you might from the "the eyes will be upon you quote".
the eyes i am looking for are natural rock, not carved, but very realistic looking. should be up high above the iron.
wr

 

[whiskeyrat]

WR, I was thinking about the geology overall, versus the mines themselves. I have personally seen a faint mine that my buddy and I found in the Caballos all but disappear only 1 year after we first found it. It was very old - no metal trash whatsoever, and dug right along a crumbly vein. Marked with a single "eye catcher" rock on bedrock and with light visible under it. That's sort of what I mean by "in plain sight", but that one was a very small example. There are huge ones, but they must be earned with many a sacrifice on the altar of Asolo... We could see that the area had been mined back in an open-face sort of way, too. The second year, we smashed down the big dangerous hanging rock at the entrance (entrance was no longer visible after just a year!), mucked out the entrance, and my buddy took a look. No stacks of bars, but definitely a genuine old working in an area rumored to have wire Gold in addition to the obvious copper oxides. Here's a hint for a medium one: look around the old shrine that some (!$^@) dug out and did not re-fill at the head of the Shandon placer. There's a good one near there. More like coffee table sized. Of course the well-documented rabbit/donkey ears or whatever in the Caballos are likely 1/2 natural, 1/2 constructed. Someone posted a lot of great pics of those in another thread.

Regarding eyes - yes, "the eyes will be upon you". Cedar stump carvings don't last IMHO. Just ask about all the stuff that used to be in the Hackberry grove, too. There are stone eyes (arches) in the mountains, but not so many in the Caballos as other local ranges. Then there's all the square-eye cornstalk petroglyph stuff regionally, but not in the Caballos main bulk, per se.

I can smell even a faint whiff of mineral. Remember, I am mostly a rock-stomper. Even obliterated mines have associated geology, and scraps of ore and gangue, however faint, still tell their tale.

I, too, will be stomping around in that timeframe. First one to call the other out by their TNet handle is owed a green chile cheeseburger - but not at that annoyingly overpopular Hatch joint or overpriced De La Vega's.

NMTH:
you said "look around the old "shrine" someone dug out and did not refill. Did you mean "old mine" that someone dug out and did not refill?
I am familiar with the Shandon. Quite large. can you narrow it down? tell me what coffee table size sign I am looking for?
thanks,

Yes i have seen the "rabbit ears" on the old Cheatham claims. I do not agree that those are the "rabbit ears" Doc was speaking about. There is only solid granite between those "ears".
wr

 

[UncleMatt]

The story about the ears may very well be made up and not represent reality in the slightest.

 

[sdcfia]

SDC, you posted --- Jesuits (big ha ha).

Then how do you explainn NP's lil map ?

View attachment 1383309

The map's inference that the Jesuits were directly connected somehow to the Caballo Mountains in a big way tells me that whoever drew the map had a very poor grasp of history. Unless, of course, anyone can provide even a shred of circumstantial evidence to the contrary. Please don't cite the likes of William White or other T or C treasure writers who speak of such things as "the Jesuit Fra Cristobal's" nearby treasure. Sloppy legend-building there. Stuff like that bolsters the chance for me that the lil map is merely another Noss scam using bogus historical references to try to enhance it. I wonder if the lil map was used to lure investors to Victorio Peak? Maybe Charley Ryan knew some factual history.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

SDC, my friend, That is a trail map only, not a treasure map as such. so how would it be presented to investors, it is way too broad, only good for someone like me and Tayopa.

Incdentally, I am not interested in any of those people that you mentioned, nor am I baseing my data upon any of them. Too many things on that lil map are correct, and were unknown until I actually discovered Tayopa, from which I haven't gotten a penny . But it was still worth it, I was able to see unspoiled country and had experiences that can never be repeated.

That lil map, no matter when it was made, was an important step in the evolving Tayopa story and hence the Jesuit presense

I like your responses SDC, since If I can't answer them, whether to your satisfaction or not, then I have to go back to the drawing board, keeps me on my feet.

 

[nmth]

I'd never be mad about someone digging out an old mine! Good, honest fun there. Way better than the TV babysitter. And it hurts no one.

The shrine is at the East end of the Shandon, down a faint road. It is right by a mine. And near the compass/dolmen/marker rock. Sorry, no tay-tahs can be posted online for something so easily further damaged - especially in those hills. Got accosted by crazy arrogant CA rock-climber dudes once swearing I was the only one they'd ever seen in those mountains (yeah, right) and I must have taken their gear. Leopard pattern seat covers in their VERY clean SUV told me all I needed to know. CA locusts are why I left the NW (sorry 1% nice, respectful CA people).

The rock is just a rock. It's very different pedestal stones, sitting on solid limestone, are what tips me over the 50% mark. Could just be an old claim marker. May be more than that. Meh. Certainly not a reason to start blasting through solid limestone, but could be a reason to look around some more. Nice view of Bat Cave (dunna, nunna, nunna, nunna) from there.

Good luck and kick stones so the snakes hear you coming.

NMTH:
you said "look around the old "shrine" someone dug out and did not refill. Did you mean "old mine" that someone dug out and did not refill?
I am familiar with the Shandon. Quite large. can you narrow it down? tell me what coffee table size sign I am looking for?
thanks,

Yes i have seen the "rabbit ears" on the old Cheatham claims. I do not agree that those are the "rabbit ears" Doc was speaking about. There is only solid granite between those "ears".
wr

 

[nmth]

Whoever "wins", we all win! Green Chile Forever!

I have heard of stone eyes. I do not look for that myself. I know the stone arches.

Above the iron is high indeed. Sooooo many nooks and crannies and impossible to reach cave openings. Someone should just get a Ouiji board or a crystal pendant, set up the seance, and have their friend ask some departed souls for the location (that way the friend, call him "Canary", gets the angry psychic backlash and you get the location - tah dah!)

Yes, the Bliss formation (IIRC) is a good landmark. Full of Iron oolites (just rolls off of the tongue: oolites) created in an ancient reduction bog. Biology has made the planet what it is today - why are we so timid? e.g., GOE. Volcanos recycle everything too, it's just slow.

nmth:
I accept your challenge for the green chile cheeseburger. A hint for you: i seem to find myself up very high a lot, like between the 2nd and 3rd vertical. "above the iron" if you know what I mean. Seems you might from the "the eyes will be upon you quote".
the eyes i am looking for are natural rock, not carved, but very realistic looking. should be up high above the iron.
wr

 

[mann]

The shrine as you call it has been called many things first time I've heard that, but it's a good guess best I've heard. I hope your right. A lot of rock climbers this time of year I don't see the draw. I'll be in the mountains as well I'm in for the chile bet be safe fellas. I know a few eyes markers but I'll save that for a face to face talk you have been reading that old book in American folklore.

 

[sdcfia]

I'd never be mad about someone digging out an old mine! Good, honest fun there. Way better than the TV babysitter. And it hurts no one.

The shrine is at the East end of the Shandon, down a faint road. It is right by a mine. And near the compass/dolmen/marker rock. Sorry, no tay-tahs can be posted online for something so easily further damaged - especially in those hills. Got accosted by crazy arrogant CA rock-climber dudes once swearing I was the only one they'd ever seen in those mountains (yeah, right) and I must have taken their gear. Leopard pattern seat covers in their VERY clean SUV told me all I needed to know. CA locusts are why I left the NW (sorry 1% nice, respectful CA people).

The rock is just a rock. It's very different pedestal stones, sitting on solid limestone, are what tips me over the 50% mark. Could just be an old claim marker. May be more than that. Meh. Certainly not a reason to start blasting through solid limestone, but could be a reason to look around some more. Nice view of Bat Cave (dunna, nunna, nunna, nunna) from there.

Good luck and kick stones so the snakes hear you coming.

I've seen a number of old mine shrines - there's not much to them. Occasionally, they were a convenient niche in a rock outcropping or a small constructed rock cairn with a small santo statuette in or on it, always close to the adit or shaft. Here in the Pinos Altos/Santa Rita region, the saint called on was usually Santo Nino de Atocha. More often though, the shrine was just a christian cross (often three) scratched into a nearby rock. The Mexican miners habitually asked to be blessed before entering the mine. The old Anglo mines didn't have them.

Rocks and cairns can have many purposes.

 

[sdcfia]

Whoever "wins", we all win! Green Chile Forever!

I have heard of stone eyes. I do not look for that myself. I know the stone arches.

Above the iron is high indeed. Sooooo many nooks and crannies and impossible to reach cave openings. Someone should just get a Ouiji board or a crystal pendant, set up the seance, and have their friend ask some departed souls for the location (that way the friend, call him "Canary", gets the angry psychic backlash and you get the location - tah dah!)

Yes, the Bliss formation (IIRC) is a good landmark. Full of Iron oolites (just rolls off of the tongue: oolites) created in an ancient reduction bog. Biology has made the planet what it is today - why are we so timid? e.g., GOE. Volcanos recycle everything too, it's just slow.

The chili crop in New Mexico this year was the smallest on record. Reason? Diminishing water availability. I was in Des Moines a few months ago and visited a terrific farmers market downtown. One guy was selling "New Mexico green chili" grown in Iowa. I was a bit sarcastic with him, and he said, "Try it." He had some simple pureed chili paste with a little salt in it - and some blue corn chips for delivery, sort of a salsa. To my shock and surprise, it was perfect. Of course, I will always buy NM chili - I prefer Diaz Farms in Deming - but the real deal is not as plentiful as it once was.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Morning SDC,my friend, bout coffee break time. I liked your reference to the Mexican miners and their saint, however don't forget the lit candle. They always had a lit candle burning for the Saint, genarally in a small alcove. should be easily identified by the acumulation of soot. Post more

 

[whiskeyrat]

The shrine as you call it has been called many things first time I've heard that, but it's a good guess best I've heard. I hope your right. A lot of rock climbers this time of year I don't see the draw. I'll be in the mountains as well I'm in for the chile bet be safe fellas. I know a few eyes markers but I'll save that for a face to face talk you have been reading that old book in American folklore.

Mann:
welcome to the challenge.
yes about the old book you refer to.
I leave for New Mexico in 4 days.
will be there till Christmas or longer.
wr

 

[whiskeyrat]

any body know what happened to TM2?

seems he is gone agian?
wr

 

[Real of Tayopa]

if so, I didn't have anything to do with it. he is kinda amusing, if he just would drop his superiority attitude.:

 

[markmar]

any body know what happened to TM2?

seems he is gone agian?
wr

He is banned .

 

[nmth]

Disappearing Cabin

Back from the Mtns.

Not much to report, except beautiful weather, and no snakes!

This came up when talking to a local buddy: a "disappearing cabin".

Anyone ever heard anything about it?

He was vague and not sure what story it is tied to in particular.

It's in the Caballos (so not Rincon or Ft. Selden, etc. as had been talked about lately).

There are some "disappearing trails" in the folklore I remember, but no disappearing cabin.

Did not make it into the Organs this time, so no snake report for that area.

Thanks.

 

[whiskeyrat]

Back from the Mtns.

Not much to report, except beautiful weather, and no snakes!

This came up when talking to a local buddy: a "disappearing cabin".

Anyone ever heard anything about it?

He was vague and not sure what story it is tied to in particular.

It's in the Caballos (so not Rincon or Ft. Selden, etc. as had been talked about lately).

There are some "disappearing trails" in the folklore I remember, but no disappearing cabin.

Did not make it into the Organs this time, so no snake report for that area.

Thanks.

nmth:
I will arrive in the area tue or wed. so i guess we wont cross paths this time
Not sure what cabin you speak of, but i do know the old "FDR cabin" that was in the Caballos up near the Taggeart claim, got loaded up on a trailer and hauled off the mountain.

Maybe thats the cabin in the rumor??

wr

 

[nmth]

nmth:
I will arrive in the area tue or wed. so i guess we wont cross paths this time
Not sure what cabin you speak of, but i do know the old "FDR cabin" that was in the Caballos up near the Taggeart claim, got loaded up on a trailer and hauled off the mountain.

Maybe thats the cabin in the rumor??

wr

Oh I'll be back before you take off if you stay past Christmas. The cabin is supposed to come and go - like the castle in the movie Krull. Split your time 50 50 dry washing and t hunting and you will be sure to return with a heavy pack.

 

[whiskeyrat]

so, the Organ mountains were kind of wierdly disappointing.
pretty much the entire west side is turned into a disney world affair full of yuppie hikers, dont do this signs, and permit required.
even a gate that is only open 9 to 5. everyone needs to leave by 5?
where there is a old (atv trail) shown on topo maps, there is now a paved road complete with yellow center line and white side lines.
hardly a secluded peaceful place. hikers everywhere, lined up on the "stay on the trail" trails, forest service everywhere.
another national scenic park.
Padre Larue is probly turning over in his grave (the location of which is according to TM2) smack dab in the middle of a picnic ground now, complete with sun shades and "keep your dog on a leash" signs.
Yuck.
I will look for treasure and adventure somewhere else.
wr