DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[whiskeyrat]

Thanks WR.

I definitely do not see the geographic relevancy myself.

The N-S scale on the map is almost spot-on from what I can figure, so those "stumps" would be 1 mile or something from Vic Peak if that's what they are. Why not Bloody Hands petro location just a bit to the north of both Vic and Geronio peaks?

My N-S scaling is based on geographic features in the Caballos, surrounding Hills and the river, and my knowledge of local petroglyph locations and mineral deposits and other features that correspond with a lot of the symbols (again, per my interpretation). I printed the map out on graph paper and tied it to major features, especially the bend at Rincon and the river and the main "breaks" in the Caballos. E-W scale is not as accurate.

Also, BTW, the Caballos ARE on at least one older (pre-anglo) map. 1770 Bernardo Miera y Pacheco. It's a slightly different map than the 1776 or whatever more common one that pops up on the web. I'll dig up a reference and post it in response to SDCFIA's earlier post somewhere which seemed to claim that the name was an anglo invention. The same map has the Point of Rocks labeled as "Perillo" which is very relevant per my research, so it's not a replacement name - lots of things I have discovered vis a vis name drift and precedence are solidified by finding both or all alternate/confused names on a single map. BTW, the Organs are also labeled on this map, and in the correct location.

Anything you can share from your trip to the Organs?

nmth:
when you say the Organs are also shown on this map, which map are you referring to, "willies map" the map with the "stumps" or the Miera y Pacheco map?

I have not made it to the Organs yet. I got involved in some very interesting stuff in the caballos and then had to come back to Michigan to vote for Trump and the firearms whitetail deer season which i am in the midst of now.
Will hopefully head for the organs (I have 3 targets in mind) right after thanksgiving.

You mention local petroglyph locations that match symbols on the "willie" map. I have yet to find petroglyphs in the Caballos. But thats an interesting notion.
I have been trying to match geography but was of the thought that all the symbols, petroglyphs, markers etc in the Caballos had been obliterated.
wr

 

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[sdcfia]

hi SDC,, , just which Pinos Altos are you referring to ?

l

Pinos Altos NM-USA.

 

[nmth]

nmth:
when you say the Organs are also shown on this map, which map are you referring to, "willies map" the map with the "stumps" or the Miera y Pacheco map?

I have not made it to the Organs yet. I got involved in some very interesting stuff in the caballos and then had to come back to Michigan to vote for Trump and the firearms whitetail deer season which i am in the midst of now.
Will hopefully head for the organs (I have 3 targets in mind) right after thanksgiving.

You mention local petroglyph locations that match symbols on the "willie" map. I have yet to find petroglyphs in the Caballos. But thats an interesting notion.
I have been trying to match geography but was of the thought that all the symbols, petroglyphs, markers etc in the Caballos had been obliterated.
wr

Organs on Miera y Pacheco map.

There are petros in the Caballos, but not as many as in the surrounding hills/mountians. Those are actually what I was referring to.

Good luck meat-hunter. I will stick with rocks, though if things so south, then I will chop firewood for camp in exchange for food.

Depending on what you call a marker, not all are gone. Some are still there though knocked down and scattered. Some of the larger ones are in plain sight, until you get the right angle. Or, they are just not recognized. Some have photos or are in front yards in Hot springs or on shelves in Cruces.

This is why I like to hunt the mines. You can hide a mine, sort of. But the geology will be there regardless of whether or not one partucualar hole is covered.

 

[nmth]

I'm more of a Naturalist explorer. I listen to the old tales and stuff, and use them as a filter when I'm out. All "facts" are suspect. The body as a whole? Yes, even that. Nonetheless, this is my excuse for multifact outdoor activity. Hiking for the sake of hiking got old in my 20's...

https://geoinfo.nmt.edu/publications/periodicals/nmg/28/n2/nmg_v28_n2_p43.pdf

New Mexico Tech is a great institution. The Geology guys and gals are very helpful if you go there and want to delve into their mining archives. Though, they are still not right about the "one" I spent 3 years finding. They keep asking me for the GPS. That's like asking a lady to show you here <ahem> before buying her dinner. I would take then there in person in a heartbeat. It is 5+ miles by foot back into the Black Range over waterfalls and stepping around bear poo the whole way, however.

That last stuff you mention is kind of too BIG for me, but maybe I will come around someday.

Now the snakes are asleep up your way (or soon to be). May make the list for a day on my way to/fro as usual soon.

I'd like to see the provenance on all things Noss. The guy was a career con man who was killed for his lying and treachery over some alleged gold bars. Hello. Why should anyone innocently swallow the claim that his maps are genuine? When the ages of his maps are forensically determined, then we can decide if a serious discussion is warranted. And for those who claim his maps were copies of much older maps - just where, when and by whom did the originals come into being? And where are they now? I'm not asking you to provide those answers, nm - I don't believe anyone knows. Why? Maybe because the whole shebang was just Noss whiskey talk?

A single location? Good question. First we have to get a handle on where all those "leads" came from and when they originated.

I'm interested in seeing that Miera y Pacheco map. His 1758 map, the original of which was "lost" in the 1930s (hmmm, there's that pesky decade again), shows the current Caballo Mountains' location, but they are not named. The Jornada del Muerto is. By the way, Thomas Jefferson and Alexander von Humboldt made use of Miera y Pacheco's maps of the New Mexico region. Those two guys are also tied to some treasure legends in the area - von Humboldt having visited a couple years before Pike, and Jefferson vis-a-vis the Louisiana Purchase, but also in regard to his "axis mundi work".

 

[sdcfia]

I'm more of a Naturalist explorer. I listen to the old tales and stuff, and use them as a filter when I'm out. All "facts" are suspect. The body as a whole? Yes, even that. Nonetheless, this is my excuse for multifact outdoor activity. Hiking for the sake of hiking got old in my 20's...

https://geoinfo.nmt.edu/publications/periodicals/nmg/28/n2/nmg_v28_n2_p43.pdf

New Mexico Tech is a great institution. The Geology guys and gals are very helpful if you go there and want to delve into their mining archives. Though, they are still not right about the "one" I spent 3 years finding. They keep asking me for the GPS. That's like asking a lady to show you here <ahem> before buying her dinner. I would take then there in person in a heartbeat. It is 5+ miles by foot back into the Black Range over waterfalls and stepping around bear poo the whole way, however.

That last stuff you mention is kind of too BIG for me, but maybe I will come around someday.

Now the snakes are asleep up your way (or soon to be). May make the list for a day on my way to/fro as usual soon.

Yeah, I'm never just out for a hike either. I'm always off-trail, looking for old mines, old roads, Indian stuff, graves, camps, minerals, rumors, etc. There's a lot out there.

Thanks for the article by Bob Eveleth. He's a great guy and has always been helpful. The college in Socorro (I still call it the School of Mines) is a great source of information. By the way, I've seen that mountain in Magdalena several times, and even though I'm extremely susceptible to pareidolia, I don't see the face. Must have been the wrong times of the day.

If the map cited in the article is indeed one done by the artist Miera y Pacheco, then I must stand corrected on the dating of the Caballo Mountains. I don't wish to be stubborn about it, but I wonder if UNM is correct in ID-ing the article's map. If you look at M y P's earlier and later work, the 1770 chart seems much more austere. If I ever get to Albuquerque, I'd like to check on it. Regardless, you've made a good point.

Of course, I don't know the "one" you're talking about, but I've been deep in the Black Range quite a bit - at least once uncomfortably so. The fire ruined a lot of it for me.

 

[UncleMatt]

I'm already in Albuquerque. What needs to be checked out sdcfia?

 

[sdcfia]

I'm already in Albuquerque. What needs to be checked out sdcfia?

Hi Unc. Below is the map attributed to Miera y Pacheco, ca 1770, with its UNM source noted, but its titleblock missing. This was part of the Eveleth paper (page 47) that nmth posted. If you get a chance to view the original, I'd be interested if you find M y P's name on the chart. Thanks in advance if you can do this. By the way, that UNM map collection (that I was not previously aware of) might turn out to be a valuable resource on many levels.

The original question was the naming of the Caballo Range, which my research showed to be by Pike in 1807, but as nmth points out (vis-a-vis M y P) is apparently 1770. As discussed earlier, M y P's 1758 map did not named the range, and Lafora and Urrieta's 1771 map referred to the range by other landmarks http://atlas.nmhum.org/pdfs/Urrutia1771RioAbajo.pdf . Maybe it's not all that important, but I'm one who likes to have his facts straight.

 

[markmar]

sdcfia

His name is written in the second line

 

[UncleMatt]

I really really need to learn to read and speak Spanish. I would be happy to go look at this map, but need you to point me in a direction of where it can be found here in Albuquerque.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

our buddy with the grick dancing girls now admits to three languages, how many more Marius ??

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia

His name is written in the second line

View attachment 1382567

Good catch, Marius, thanks. Seems like this settles the matter - the Caballos were named ca 1770.

 

[sdcfia]

I really really need to learn to read and speak Spanish. I would be happy to go look at this map, but need you to point me in a direction of where it can be found here in Albuquerque.

I guess it's a moot point now. Presumably, the map collection is in the Science and Engineering Library - wherever that is on the UNM campus. I'm totally unfamiliar with that campus.

 

[whiskeyrat]

Organs on Miera y Pacheco map.

There are petros in the Caballos, but not as many as in the surrounding hills/mountians. Those are actually what I was referring to.

Good luck meat-hunter. I will stick with rocks, though if things so south, then I will chop firewood for camp in exchange for food.

Depending on what you call a marker, not all are gone. Some are still there though knocked down and scattered. Some of the larger ones are in plain sight, until you get the right angle. Or, they are just not recognized. Some have photos or are in front yards in Hot springs or on shelves in Cruces.

This is why I like to hunt the mines. You can hide a mine, sort of. But the geology will be there regardless of whether or not one partucualar hole is covered.

Yes, i agree the old mines are still there, but the old spanish mines are so well hidden (by the spanish or indians) or obliterated (caved in purposefully) that they are impossible to find visually.

do you mind disclosing some of the "larger ones in plain sight"? I would like to check them out.

have you seen any eyes carved in cedar stumps? or natural eyes in the rocks?

I am leaving for the Organ mountains the day after thanksgiving.
also have a project in the Caballos i hope to complete before Christmas.

wr

 

[nmth]

WR, I was thinking about the geology overall, versus the mines themselves. I have personally seen a faint mine that my buddy and I found in the Caballos all but disappear only 1 year after we first found it. It was very old - no metal trash whatsoever, and dug right along a crumbly vein. Marked with a single "eye catcher" rock on bedrock and with light visible under it. That's sort of what I mean by "in plain sight", but that one was a very small example. There are huge ones, but they must be earned with many a sacrifice on the altar of Asolo... We could see that the area had been mined back in an open-face sort of way, too. The second year, we smashed down the big dangerous hanging rock at the entrance (entrance was no longer visible after just a year!), mucked out the entrance, and my buddy took a look. No stacks of bars, but definitely a genuine old working in an area rumored to have wire Gold in addition to the obvious copper oxides. Here's a hint for a medium one: look around the old shrine that some (!$^@) dug out and did not re-fill at the head of the Shandon placer. There's a good one near there. More like coffee table sized. Of course the well-documented rabbit/donkey ears or whatever in the Caballos are likely 1/2 natural, 1/2 constructed. Someone posted a lot of great pics of those in another thread.

Regarding eyes - yes, "the eyes will be upon you". Cedar stump carvings don't last IMHO. Just ask about all the stuff that used to be in the Hackberry grove, too. There are stone eyes (arches) in the mountains, but not so many in the Caballos as other local ranges. Then there's all the square-eye cornstalk petroglyph stuff regionally, but not in the Caballos main bulk, per se.

I can smell even a faint whiff of mineral. Remember, I am mostly a rock-stomper. Even obliterated mines have associated geology, and scraps of ore and gangue, however faint, still tell their tale.

I, too, will be stomping around in that timeframe. First one to call the other out by their TNet handle is owed a green chile cheeseburger - but not at that annoyingly overpopular Hatch joint or overpriced De La Vega's.

Yes, i agree the old mines are still there, but the old spanish mines are so well hidden (by the spanish or indians) or obliterated (caved in purposefully) that they are impossible to find visually.

do you mind disclosing some of the "larger ones in plain sight"? I would like to check them out.

have you seen any eyes carved in cedar stumps? or natural eyes in the rocks?

I am leaving for the Organ mountains the day after thanksgiving.
also have a project in the Caballos i hope to complete before Christmas.

wr

 

[nmth]

Good catch, Marius, thanks. Seems like this settles the matter - the Caballos were named ca 1770.

Well, if authentic, this map shows that somebody called them that at that point in time. Where were they when the common El Chato waybills were written? (if not in the 1930's like SD seems to imply often) New name, old name, name the same or changing name? There's a documented reason why the range may have obtained that name, but that's a friend's historical work, so it's not for me to share. Anyways, I was surprised when this topic came up just how sparse and mostly recent the label for the Caballos was. Challenged some big assumptions of mine. Good exchange.

Locals may have called a certain hill "so and so hill" for 100 years before officialdom reared its ugly head and picked or mis-recorded an official name. Today, we are stuck with the names on Rand McNalley, but that, to me has very little to do with what the names would have been in 1650.

 

[sdcfia]

Well, if authentic, this map shows that somebody called them that at that point in time. Where were they when the common El Chato waybills were written? (if not in the 1930's like SD seems to imply often) New name, old name, name the same or changing name? There's a documented reason why the range may have obtained that name, but that's a friend's historical work, so it's not for me to share. Anyways, I was surprised when this topic came up just how sparse and mostly recent the label for the Caballos was. Challenged some big assumptions of mine. Good exchange.

Locals may have called a certain hill "so and so hill" for 100 years before officialdom reared its ugly head and picked or mis-recorded an official name. Today, we are stuck with the names on Rand McNalley, but that, to me has very little to do with what the names would have been in 1650.

If folks are interested in the romance and adventure angle inherent in treasure legends, there's plenty to get the blood flowing when they explore the "what if" canyons. It's fun - I get that. Hell, who wouldn't want to be the guy who bird dogs a cave of gold bars? The Caballos: a marginal mining district with a little documented gold recovery by miners, and a whole lot of monumental legends. Ancients. Spanish. Knights. Apaches. Jesuits (big ha ha). James. Villa. Holmdahl. The entire 1930s rogues gallery. And that great story from the 80s about the uncle of the young metallurgist with the red-flag surname. Something for every taste - I've considered all of them.

People have accused me of being a conspiracy theorist a few times, but what I actually am is a conspiracy analyst. For example, El Chato, the alleged 17th century bad boy. If you research the man, you'll discover that whoever conjured up that "waybill" failed to get his facts straight. That gallows waybill, however, provides electrifying clues that have had folks chasing their tails for many years. To all: good luck with that.

Place names. The name itself - and why it was chosen - may be mundane, but also can be very significant if you ever have the time to look at bigger pictures. That's the problem with wanting to know things - it takes a lot of time. Speaking of place names, I spoke with a man back in the 70s who claimed to be a descendant of one of the Skeleton Canyon treasure legend protagonists. He was looking for old local maps of the country north of Lordsburg NM. Seems like the outlaw gang always referred to "Davis Mountain" - a real peak on the east slope of the Chiricahuas - but it was a code name for another mountain, known only to the gang, that they used to lead nosy people the wrong way. Good story, but one of my rules of thumb is that well-known treasure stories are not the ones that argonauts should get serious about.

 

[sdcfia]

WR, I was thinking about the geology overall, versus the mines themselves. I have personally seen a faint mine that my buddy and I found in the Caballos all but disappear only 1 year after we first found it. It was very old - no metal trash whatsoever, and dug right along a crumbly vein. Marked with a single "eye catcher" rock on bedrock and with light visible under it. That's sort of what I mean by "in plain sight", but that one was a very small example. There are huge ones, but they must be earned with many a sacrifice on the altar of Asolo... We could see that the area had been mined back in an open-face sort of way, too. The second year, we smashed down the big dangerous hanging rock at the entrance (entrance was no longer visible after just a year!), mucked out the entrance, and my buddy took a look. No stacks of bars, but definitely a genuine old working in an area rumored to have wire Gold in addition to the obvious copper oxides. Here's a hint for a medium one: look around the old shrine that some (!$^@) dug out and did not re-fill at the head of the Shandon placer. There's a good one near there. More like coffee table sized. Of course the well-documented rabbit/donkey ears or whatever in the Caballos are likely 1/2 natural, 1/2 constructed. Someone posted a lot of great pics of those in another thread.

Regarding eyes - yes, "the eyes will be upon you". Cedar stump carvings don't last IMHO. Just ask about all the stuff that used to be in the Hackberry grove, too. There are stone eyes (arches) in the mountains, but not so many in the Caballos as other local ranges. Then there's all the square-eye cornstalk petroglyph stuff regionally, but not in the Caballos main bulk, per se.

I can smell even a faint whiff of mineral. Remember, I am mostly a rock-stomper. Even obliterated mines have associated geology, and scraps of ore and gangue, however faint, still tell their tale.

I, too, will be stomping around in that timeframe. First one to call the other out by their TNet handle is owed a green chile cheeseburger - but not at that annoyingly overpopular Hatch joint or overpriced De La Vega's.

"... altar of Asolo ..." ha, ha. My first advice to explorers is get the best footwear you can afford. It's the most important gear you own.

I don't know about the Caballos per se, but remember: the state's abandoned mine remediation program (funded in the 70s) collapsed a lot of adit portals, filled in a lot of shaft collars and cleaned up a lot of sites that were considered to be attractive nuisances on public lands. Some of these were later discovered by folks who thought, "hidden mine", and were re-opened only to find empty, played-out old workings. This in itself is fun and interesting for guys like me, who once worked as an underground miner, but caution should be exercised by folks who are not experienced in old mines. The reason that the state covered them in the first place is that they can be dangerous.

The carvings on juniper and cedars may or may not weather well, depending on several factors. That said, the stumps themselves, especially the big ones, can last literally many hundreds of years in the New Mexico climate. They're brutes that don't rot and seem immortal compared to other tree species, even oaks. Here's something to think about: following a juniper stump trail over miles of terrain may be easier than trying to find and follow rock carvings. Another idea: selective felling of junipers in a grove may result in a "map", or pattern, that could be quite useful to someone who knows how to use it.

 

[markmar]

our buddy with the grick dancing girls now admits to three languages, how many more Marius ??

Don Jose

I'm trying to learn as much as possible with my new translator .

 

[nmth]

SDC, glad you got the reference to the all-important treads. For a while there, I was wearing out 2+ pair a year. Not so much lately (sad face). I'm being more selective. (optimistic face).

You mentioned: "The carvings on juniper and cedars may or may not weather well, depending on several factors. That said, the stumps themselves, especially the big ones, can last literally many hundreds of years in the New Mexico climate. They're brutes that don't rot and seem immortal compared to other tree species, even oaks. Here's something to think about: following a juniper stump trail over miles of terrain may be easier than trying to find and follow rock carvings. Another idea: selective felling of junipers in a grove may result in a "map", or pattern, that could be quite useful to someone who knows how to use it."

Can't call myself a "pro", but here's as close to a pro-tip as you'll get from me: " stumps are nice and all, but what is especially great about junipers and some pines, is the RE-GROWTH. When you have a good stump, and the tree has re-grown 50, 100, 150+ years BACK around the old stump in a way that no one could have ever got inbetween the new growth to make the stump (and why would they do that?), THEN you have an old stump for sure and some specific temporal relevancy.

The map/pattern idea is interesting. I had not "gone there" before.

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose

I'm trying to learn as much as possible with my new translator .

AHA! Okay amigo confess, how old is she? (your new translator that is!)