Do the Stone Tablets lead to somewhere OTHER than the Superstition Mtns?

[deducer]

No one will invest their time, brain power and intellectual prowess to receive an absolute "0". We are motivated by some type of reward whether it be personal (as in your case), or to be recognized by our peers.
EB

I don't think it's true that everyone is motivated by personal or material gain (as antithetical or sacrilegious as that may seem to be to this type of forum), and in my case I have no need to be "recognized by peers." As to what I gain out of this, I have always enjoyed a good mystery that challenges my thinking skills, as my avatar may have suggested to you. It also makes for a good story if nothing else.

My congratulations to you for attaining spiritual immortality. I'm afraid I have been remiss in that regard.

 

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[Springfield]

No worries; you did not rattle my cage one bit. For me, seeing this as a "win or lose" proposition is pretty juvenile, not to mention short-sighted. I don't have a horse in this race other than to find out as much as I can about what has turned out to be a very fascinating puzzle for me.

The argument of whether the Stone Maps are a hoax or not will likely never be settled, but the discussions that they have generated has been very interesting for me to read, even if arcane or downright bizarre at times.

I've always had a strong curiosity streak too. With time, I realized that I was not only interested in what people believed, but even more so in why they believed it.

 

[Ellie Baba]

I don't think it's true that everyone is motivated by personal or material gain (as antithetical or sacrilegious as that may seem to be to this type of forum), and in my case I have no need to be "recognized by peers." As to what I gain out of this, I have always enjoyed a good mystery that challenges my thinking skills, as my avatar may have suggested to you. It also makes for a good story if nothing else.

My congratulations to you for attaining spiritual immortality. I'm afraid I have been remiss in that regard.

Deducer,

Do not tarry, for someone out there that you love and cherish trusts your opinion with all of their being. You must solve this most important puzzle, if not for you, then for their sake.

I agree with SH in regards to what motivates us (there are many). I do not need riches, but I take this profession very seriously; to share and understand why certain people will come together as a group, giving everything up for a specific cause that has spanned the centuries. They too must have sacrificed something for someone. I have learned so much over the last 30 years and I am not finished yet.

I could leave at any time,

Ellie B

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

Do not tarry, for someone out there that you love and cherish trusts your opinion with all of their being. You must solve this most important puzzle, if not for you, then for their sake.

I agree with SH in regards to what motivates us (there are many). I do not need riches, but I take this profession very seriously; to share and understand why certain people will come together as a group, giving everything up for a specific cause that has spanned the centuries. They too must have sacrificed something for someone. I have learned so much over the last 30 years and I am not finished yet.

I could leave at any time,

Ellie B

Well I appreciate your views, but my well-being does not depend on the possibility of there being caches in a dusty desert thousands of miles from me, waiting to be discovered. I may or may not solve this puzzle, and based on what I've read of Dutch Hunter history in general, my chances are very slim.

Not losing any sleep over it, though.

I will give it my best try, however. That much I promise you.

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

You wrote elsewhere:

"Pending a reply from Diane Hadley regarding some questions I have about the translation of Fr. Segesser's papers, particularly his grasp of Spanish, I am now of the belief that the "spelling errors" could simply have just been intentional, and not necessarily coded (except for the missing "R" from "Coazon" which we see above the horse's mane), and were done for the same reason that Spanish was used as the language on those stones: to disguise authorship."

You are using an excellent source there. Believe she can shed a great deal of personal insight into Father Charles Polzer. Diane does not believe in "Jesuit Treasure".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

To get back to this subject- I have not received a reply as of yet in regard to Fr. Segesser, but I have made inquiries to other sources. My interest in this is not just the Friar's grasp of Spanish to test the "spelling errors" hypothesis but also extends to the style of the writing used on the Stone Maps, specifically the H/P stone. As we know that stone carving is not easy, it is safe to presume that a preliminary draft was done on paper or vellum, and whoever carved the H/P stone was told to make a very exact copy of the document onto stone, this we know because it has been proven that very little on the stones is there by accident.

In making an exact copy, the carver most likely transferred the original drawer's graphological tendencies, hence the reference to graphology and related topics. If the creator of the stone was also the carver, then these tendencies would show all that much more.

I have made a number of observations, but will just list a few for sake of brevity.

1) The bottom-most of all the E's is more often than not, the longest of the three horizontal bars.
2) The Y's are more closer to an 'r' in that the left ascender is near vertical.
3) There are no diacritics.
4) The D, U, and O's are almost rectangular in feature, although this may be a function of carving in stone.
5) The upper bar of the first Z is wider than the lower. In the second Z, it is the reverse.
6) The bar of the A is more often than not, higher than the middle bar of the E.
7) Of the 5 B's, only one has a serif at the bottom, although it may be intentional- pointing at the priest, as if to relate that specific statement to the priest.
8) The letter A and R are fairly prominent, with wide, sloped legs.
9) The lines of the text slant upward more often than not.
10) Each statement starts off with a reverse indent.

The words "Peligroza" and "Santefe" warrant special attention and I will refer to them in another post.

In the meantime, with this list of graphological characteristics that we have identified, we can start to examine a variety of handwritings to see if there are any similarities to what is on the list above, starting with Fr. Kino and progressing up to Fr. Rojas, so if anyone has copies of any personal documents, letters, and otherwise written by any of the friars, please feel free to post so we can study and compare. If those documents happen to contain any Spanish phrases, we can also check for spelling competence.

The same would be true for any documents from the Peralta family. Also perhaps DeGrazia, Travis Tumlinson and some of the other suspects, if only to rule them out.

I have attached some charts illustrating how complex the science of graphology is. There is a lot that has yet to be interpreted.

 

[deducer]

Here are two samples of DeGrazia's handwriting that I've been able to find.

Right off the bat, a lot of his letters have extensions (e.g., the vertical stem of his "B" goes past the bowls, as well as his "E" going past the bars). The letter A leans forward and has a bold bar which is a slash through, and the second leg is longer and more vertical than the first. The serif on the G is peculiar, and on letters with multiple descenders (such as the M), the last leg is consistently the deepest.

This, IMO, would eliminate him from being associated with at least the H/P stone.

Even if he had another person carve the H/P stone, he as an artist would inevitably be involved in the design to the extent of inadvertently leaving a personal mark on it.

 

[coazon de oro]

To get back to this subject- I have not received a reply as of yet in regard to Fr. Segesser, but I have made inquiries to other sources. My interest in this is not just the Friar's grasp of Spanish to test the "spelling errors" hypothesis but also extends to the style of the writing used on the Stone Maps, specifically the H/P stone. As we know that stone carving is not easy, it is safe to presume that a preliminary draft was done on paper or vellum, and whoever carved the H/P stone was told to make a very exact copy of the document onto stone, this we know because it has been proven that very little on the stones is there by accident.

In making an exact copy, the carver most likely transferred the original drawer's graphological tendencies, hence the reference to graphology and related topics. If the creator of the stone was also the carver, then these tendencies would show all that much more.

I have made a number of observations, but will just list a few for sake of brevity.

1) The bottom-most of all the E's is more often than not, the longest of the three horizontal bars.
2) The Y's are more closer to an 'r' in that the left ascender is near vertical.
3) There are no diacritics.
4) The D, U, and O's are almost rectangular in feature, although this may be a function of carving in stone.
5) The upper bar of the first Z is wider than the lower. In the second Z, it is the reverse.
6) The bar of the A is more often than not, higher than the middle bar of the E.
7) Of the 5 B's, only one has a serif at the bottom, although it may be intentional- pointing at the priest, as if to relate that specific statement to the priest.
8) The letter A and R are fairly prominent, with wide, sloped legs.
9) The lines of the text slant upward more often than not.
10) Each statement starts off with a reverse indent.

The words "Peligroza" and "Santefe" warrant special attention and I will refer to them in another post.

In the meantime, with this list of graphological characteristics that we have identified, we can start to examine a variety of handwritings to see if there are any similarities to what is on the list above, starting with Fr. Kino and progressing up to Fr. Rojas, so if anyone has copies of any personal documents, letters, and otherwise written by any of the friars, please feel free to post so we can study and compare. If those documents happen to contain any Spanish phrases, we can also check for spelling competence.

The same would be true for any documents from the Peralta family. Also perhaps DeGrazia, Travis Tumlinson and some of the other suspects, if only to rule them out.

I have attached some charts illustrating how complex the science of graphology is. There is a lot that has yet to be interpreted.

View attachment 941013View attachment 941014View attachment 941015

Howdy deducer,

I beg to differ if you don't mind, but graphology is not a science as you stated. It is actually considered pseudoscience based on unproven claims. Claiming to make progress on the mystery of the Peralta Stone's with the use of graphology would be the same as with that of Shadow Signs lol.

Homar

 

[deducer]

Howdy deducer,

I beg to differ if you don't mind, but graphology is not a science as you stated. It is actually considered pseudoscience based on unproven claims. Claiming to make progress on the mystery of the Peralta Stone's with the use of graphology would be the same as with that of Shadow Signs lol.

Homar

The FBI would disagree with you as they have an entire unit at the FBI laboratory devoted to this subject, called the Questioned Documents Unit (QDU) which has 17 full-time forensic document examiners. So while you think it is pseudoscience, they apparently do not.

In any case, I do not expect there to be any conclusive proof from this approach, only that what discoveries we may make, in combination with other factors, would hopefully allow us to isolate our search further for whoever was behind the creation of those stones.

 

[coazon de oro]

The FBI would disagree with you as they have an entire unit at the FBI laboratory devoted to this subject, called the Questioned Documents Unit (QDU) which has 17 full-time forensic document examiners. So while you think it is pseudoscience, they apparently do not.

In any case, I do not expect there to be any conclusive proof from this approach, only that what discoveries we may make, in combination with other factors, would hopefully allow us to isolate our search further for whoever was behind the creation of those stones.

You seem to be confusing graphology with graphoanalysis, which is what the FBI's Ouestioned Documents Examiners go by. You are doing it right, you just have it titled wrong.

Homar

 

[deducer]

You seem to be confusing graphology with graphoanalysis, which is what the FBI's Ouestioned Documents Examiners go by. You are doing it right, you just have it titled wrong.

Homar

While the FBI does employ graphology on occasion (e.g., to form composites) you are correct in that I should be referring to what I am talking about as graphoanalysis, as I am not so much interested in finding out what the personality of the writer is, only in seeing if there is any match as far as handwriting. I did post those graphology charts without thinking about the fact that I was probably not going to end up using any of them.

 

[deducer]

About the only sample of Kino's handwriting I can come up with for now.. not really giving us anything so far.

I did come across a note from a 1966 translator of Kino's work, F.J. Smith, who mentioned that Kino's Spanish was erratic. He also was said to not be good with names and places. The "Rio Grande" to which Kino refers to is today's Gila river, according to Smith.

 

[cactusjumper]

Deducer,

I believe there are many samples of Father Kino's handwriting. "Father Kino In Arizona" by Fay Jackson Smith, John L. Kessell and Francis J. Fox, S.J. has some good examples, along the lines of what you posted.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[roadrunner]

I will have to find the file or documents i downloaded off the web.
But some one already has compared Thumlisons handwriting to the stones and to me they match pretty good.
Besides, did not his family say they saw him messing around and carving stones.
Unless he was making duplicates or changing them in some way.

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

I believe there are many samples of Father Kino's handwriting. "Father Kino In Arizona" by Fay Jackson Smith, John L. Kessell and Francis J. Fox, S.J. has some good examples, along the lines of what you posted.

Good luck,

Joe

Thanks for the suggestion Joe. Would it be possible for you or anyone to post a sample of one of Kino's letters here?

 

[deducer]

I will have to find the file or documents i downloaded off the web.
But some one already has compared Thumlisons handwriting to the stones and to me they match pretty good.
Besides, did not his family say they saw him messing around and carving stones.
Unless he was making duplicates or changing them in some way.

You are perhaps thinking of the comparisons that Gary Gundiff did on his website in a series of three PDF documents, in which he did a very detailed analysis.

The Peralta Stone Maps

It's a little tough for me to do a comparison because I don't have permission from Garry to use the picture he has of the stone that Travis carved, and so anyone following my reasoning will have to do a little back and forth between what I write and the link I posted, but for me, there are a number observations that I have made that demonstrate that Travis did not carve the stones. Of course there is the argument that he carved the ship stone when he was 14, IIRC, and so he would theoretically have a lot more practice by the time he got underway with the Stone Maps, but there are always tendencies that remain consistent, as far as handwriting or carving style. What would really help is if we had a handwritten letter from Travis at the time he came into contact with the stones.

 

[cactusjumper]

Thanks for the suggestion Joe. Would it be possible for you or anyone to post a sample of one of Kino's letters here?

Deducer,

This from Kino's Relacion Diaria:



Hope it helps.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Thanks Joe.. for some reason I am unable to zoom into that. Not that it would help, though, as all of it is in cursive, making comparison difficult. Are there any samples of his writing in block letters?

 

[cactusjumper]

Thanks Joe.. for some reason I am unable to zoom into that. Not that it would help, though, as all of it is in cursive, making comparison difficult. Are there any samples of his writing in block letters?

Deducer,

Good question, but I really doubt it. The Jesuits were highly/formally educated. I have many samples of Jesuit writings and can't recall anything in block style. Being at our shop right now, I wouldn't take that to the bank. I will look later on.
Memory ain't so good as it uster be.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[deducer]

A comparison of the letters that Tumlinson carved in his ship rock with the letters carved into the H/P stone follows, but first I would like to say that I am not discrediting any of the detailed work that Garry did. It is clear that he put a lot of work into the analysis of the letters and I don't want to take away from that. In the end, it will only be a matter of opinion anyway, with the reader making their own decision based on the analysis put forth by both of us. Garry's viewpoint is just as credible as mine is.

There is also the issue that Tumlinson is said to have, in regard to his carvings on a stone chimney, "had made some additional carvings when he was about 13 or 14 years old." (from the LDM forum). It is not clear if that also includes this ship rock. Travis was 39 at the time he was said to have found the Stone Maps, so that is roughly a period of 25 years for him to have allegedly improve his stone carving skills, if we are to believe he was behind it.

Some initial observations although the reader will have to toggle back and forth between the PDF and the Stone Maps, for a fuller comprehension in addition to the details I am describing:

Overall observations regarding the ship stone:

1) Letters have more concavity and squat more than those on the H/P stone. Their alignment is also more erratic.
2) The baseline is virtually non-existent. The base of all letters do not rest on the same plane, but this may be a result of Travis being a novice. The stem of each letter is almost never vertical, but always leaning forwards or backwards.
3) There are no serifs, but again this may be the result of a novice at work.
4) The size of the letters vary much more.


Letter by letter:

A: Travis's A has a sharper peak as opposed to the A's on the H/P stone, and while the angle of the legs and the crossbars do bear an uncanny resemblances to the A's on the H/P stone, the crossbars in the A's on the H/P stone have a very SLIGHT bowed feature to them. The crossbars intersecting Travis's A tend to be straight even if diagonal at times (as it is on the H/P stone).

The letters C, D, O, U, on the H/P stone have a rectangular appearance. Those letters on Travis's stone are more concave. Travis's D tends to fatten towards the bottom, that is, the bowl of the D is not so much concave as egg-shaped. the bowls of Travis's D have extensions, that is, they finish beyond the stem. This is not seen on the H/P stone, except for a very slight extension on the "DE"

The E on the H/P stone has a tendency where the lowermost bar is often the longest. This is not evident on Travis's stone. While the middle bar on both stones is short, Travis's E has a slight forward rotation, as does his M. The final ascender in Travis's M is always the deepest because of this slight rotation. His N's are also slanted forward and more narrow.

While the G on Travis's stone is somewhat similar to the G on the H/P stone, it does not have a serif whereas the G on the H/P stone does. This may again be the result of a novice, but there is the matter that the G on the H/P stone has the top ascender coming back down and pointing to the slash (as in LUGARES, but the G in PELIGROZA is muddled), where Travis's G finished on more of an outward position as does his C.

The comparisons between the C's are similar in the comparisons to the G's in that the C's and G's on the H/P stones are more closed in. That is, the ends of the C on the H/P stone tends to point to each other, as the top of the G points down to the slash. This is not evident on Travis's stone. His C's are more open-ended.

The curvature of the S on the H/P stone extending from x-height is pretty much symmetrical, but the upper curve on Travis's S is consistently of a bigger radius than the curve on the bottom.

The P's on Travis's stone has an extension on the top, and the bowl is not as symmetrically curved as it is on the H/P stone. The P's on the H/P stone have a very slight bowed feature to its stems. Travis's does not.

The number 5 on both stones, however, bear a lot of similar features in that the tail at the end of the 5 ends beyond the stem of the number, and the bowl extends further than the top bar. The stems also extends down beyond where the bowl begins. It is worth noting that the 5 on the horse side of the stone has a thinness very comparable to both 5's on the ship rock. Numbers on the H/P stone and elsewhere appear to be a lot less cleaner (1, 8, and 3) as compared to this 5 in the upper left corner.

The proficiency of the carver of the H/P stone is obviously more advanced than Travis with his ship stone as far as penmanship, and while it could be argued that Travis may had approximately 25 years to advance his talent by the time his discovery was made in 1949, the letter by letter comparison does not pass the test for me.

So in my opinion, this shows that except for the 5, a connection cannot be made between the authorship of the H/P stone and the ship rock, as far as the tendencies exhibited in both carvings.

That in combination with the comprehensive arguments put forth by Gollum (Mike) as far as the circumstances surrounding Travis's behavior towards others in regard to the Stone Maps, and other evidence put forth in this forum and others, puts me firmly in the position where I do not believe that Travis carved the H/P stone, but I cannot rule out that he did not carve some additional details onto it, such as the 5.

 

[cactusjumper]

A comparison of the letters that Tumlinson carved in his ship rock with the letters carved into the H/P stone follows, but first I would like to say that I am not discrediting any of the detailed work that Garry did. It is clear that he put a lot of work into the analysis of the letters and I don't want to take away from that. In the end, it will only be a matter of opinion anyway, with the reader making their own decision based on the analysis put forth by both of us. Garry's viewpoint is just as credible as mine is.

There is also the issue that Tumlinson is said to have, in regard to his carvings on a stone chimney, "had made some additional carvings when he was about 13 or 14 years old." (from the LDM forum). It is not clear if that also includes this ship rock. Travis was 39 at the time he was said to have found the Stone Maps, so that is roughly a period of 25 years for him to have allegedly improve his stone carving skills, if we are to believe he was behind it.

Some initial observations although the reader will have to toggle back and forth between the PDF and the Stone Maps, for a fuller comprehension in addition to the details I am describing:

Overall observations regarding the ship stone:

1) Letters have more concavity and squat more than those on the H/P stone. Their alignment is also more erratic.
2) The baseline is virtually non-existent. The base of all letters do not rest on the same plane, but this may be a result of Travis being a novice. The stem of each letter is almost never vertical, but always leaning forwards or backwards.
3) There are no serifs, but again this may be the result of a novice at work.
4) The size of the letters vary much more.


Letter by letter:

A: Travis's A has a sharper peak as opposed to the A's on the H/P stone, and while the angle of the legs and the crossbars do bear an uncanny resemblances to the A's on the H/P stone, the crossbars in the A's on the H/P stone have a very SLIGHT bowed feature to them. The crossbars intersecting Travis's A tend to be straight even if diagonal at times (as it is on the H/P stone).

The letters C, D, O, U, on the H/P stone have a rectangular appearance. Those letters on Travis's stone are more concave. Travis's D tends to fatten towards the bottom, that is, the bowl of the D is not so much concave as egg-shaped. the bowls of Travis's D have extensions, that is, they finish beyond the stem. This is not seen on the H/P stone, except for a very slight extension on the "DE"

The E on the H/P stone has a tendency where the lowermost bar is often the longest. This is not evident on Travis's stone. While the middle bar on both stones is short, Travis's E has a slight forward rotation, as does his M. The final ascender in Travis's M is always the deepest because of this slight rotation. His N's are also slanted forward and more narrow.

While the G on Travis's stone is somewhat similar to the G on the H/P stone, it does not have a serif whereas the G on the H/P stone does. This may again be the result of a novice, but there is the matter that the G on the H/P stone has the top ascender coming back down and pointing to the slash (as in LUGARES, but the G in PELIGROZA is muddled), where Travis's G finished on more of an outward position as does his C.

The comparisons between the C's are similar in the comparisons to the G's in that the C's and G's on the H/P stones are more closed in. That is, the ends of the C on the H/P stone tends to point to each other, as the top of the G points down to the slash. This is not evident on Travis's stone. His C's are more open-ended.

The curvature of the S on the H/P stone extending from x-height is pretty much symmetrical, but the upper curve on Travis's S is consistently of a bigger radius than the curve on the bottom.

The P's on Travis's stone has an extension on the top, and the bowl is not as symmetrically curved as it is on the H/P stone. The P's on the H/P stone have a very slight bowed feature to its stems. Travis's does not.

The number 5 on both stones, however, bear a lot of similar features in that the tail at the end of the 5 ends beyond the stem of the number, and the bowl extends further than the top bar. The stems also extends down beyond where the bowl begins. It is worth noting that the 5 on the horse side of the stone has a thinness very comparable to both 5's on the ship stone. Numbers on the H/P stone and elsewhere appear to be a lot less cleaner (1, 8, and 3) as compared to this 5 in the upper left corner.

The proficiency of the carver of the H/P stone is obviously more advanced than Travis with his ship stone as far as penmanship, and while it could be argued that Travis may had approximately 25 years to advance his talent by the time his discovery was made in 1949, the letter by letter comparison does not pass the test for me.

So in my opinion, this shows that except for the 5, a connection cannot be made between the authorship of the H/P stone and the ship rock, as far as the tendencies exhibited in both carvings.

That in combination with the comprehensive arguments put forth by Gollum (Mike) as far as the circumstances surrounding Travis's behavior towards others in regard to the Stone Maps, and other evidence put forth in this forum and others, puts me firmly in the position where I do not believe that Travis carved the H/P stone, but I cannot rule out that he did not carve some additional details onto it, such as the 5.

Deducer,

You have obviously given the Stone Maps a lot of time and effort. Not many people have had the time, funds and interest that Garry has. He, and his wife, have traveled all over the country to get face to face time with people, documents and artifacts to get an understanding of the facts that most people have never even heard of.

IMHO, Garry is at the top of the Stone Map food chain. Many Stone Map enthusiasts have made up the "facts" as they go along. Garry just reports the facts as he received them. He has no dog in the fight except digging up the truth. We are all richer for the work that he has done.

You are doing good work on establishing an opinion on the stones. Many others have done the same, including myself. No one, that I know of has walked in Garry's footstep in chasing down the facts.

Congratulations on the work you have done. It looks impressive.

Good luck,

Joe