Do the Stone Tablets lead to somewhere OTHER than the Superstition Mtns?

[coazon de oro]

Jacob Waltz was looking for his mule when he found the camp of the three Mexicans that later showed him the mine.

Homar

 

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[Oroblanco]

cubfan64. for dutch hunters that are serious about their research.this could be of help, if not I would never have mentioned it.
you would take your jeep wrangler places that you wouldn't take your favorite family car. if the Dutchman only took a horse in the mnts then chances were he did not travel in very rough terrain to his mine,but if he traveled by mule he knew the terrain was rough and the only way he was going to get there was by mule, also which one travels better with less water, I think an experienced person with a secret agenda would have planned this out very well, especially if he thought people were following him. people are creatures of habit, no one is beyond being followed.
this will give mine hunters different advantages to know exactly what kind of terrain this man was traveling to get to his mine. this is the reason this is a good conversation to have.np

We might make too much of the fact that Waltz had a mule too. He may have simply preferred mules to horses. Horses can get into some mighty rough country, in fact the 'pro' packers that are operating in the Superstitions today, use only horses and not mules.

Also, Waltz could not jump into his Jeep Wrangler to ride up to the Superstitions, the options were horse, mule, burro, ox-cart or afoot. The quickest and easiest way might have been the mule or a wagon.




Please do continue;

Oroblanco

 

[Not Peralta]

Oroblanco. very good. have some but you do understand the reason for discussion on this subject. np

 

[Springfield]

Oroblanco. very good. have some but you do understand the reason for discussion on this subject. np

Which was: how did Waltz avoid detection, having needed animal(s) to access his diggings? Pack/riding stock are easy to trail and presumably needed to be pastured near water when Waltz was working.

 

[Cubfan64]

cubfan64. for dutch hunters that are serious about their research.this could be of help, if not I would never have mentioned it.
you would take your jeep wrangler places that you wouldn't take your favorite family car. if the Dutchman only took a horse in the mnts then chances were he did not travel in very rough terrain to his mine,but if he traveled by mule he knew the terrain was rough and the only way he was going to get there was by mule, also which one travels better with less water, I think an experienced person with a secret agenda would have planned this out very well, especially if he thought people were following him. people are creatures of habit, no one is beyond being followed.
this will give mine hunters different advantages to know exactly what kind of terrain this man was traveling to get to his mine. this is the reason this is a good conversation to have.np

I understand your point NP, but I guess I just don't really agree that whether he had a mule or horse really helps anyone (even a "serious" dutch hunter) narrow his or her search area.

The fact is the environment in the Superstitions has changed in the last 150 years. How much water was available and where was it located in the late 1800's? How overgrown with catclaw and other nuisance brush was it back then? How far could/would Waltz have walked from his mule or horse (if he used one) to get to his source of gold?

I'm not discounting this discussion, but I think the real question should be how or why Waltz wasn't more easily tracked to his source if he was indeed using a mule or horse, and not what "country" his mine might be in based on his mode of transportation.

Personally I think the best way to locate his mine (if there was one) would be geologically to investigate areas that hold the most promise and to keep a sharp lookout for those features that might indicate a rich source of precious metals - much like how sgtfda has done and is doing.

That said, if someone can find their way to his source of gold by trying to figure out whether he used a mule or horse, more power to them .

 

[sgtfda]

Paul I use a cow. The tracks fit in with all the cow tracks in the area.

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul I use a cow. The tracks fit in with all the cow tracks in the area.

You're smarter than you look sarge :P. By the year 2000, we were all supposed to have our own personal hovercrafts - now THAT would have been a great way to not leave a trace!

 

[sgtfda]

If Waltz suspected he was being tailed all he had to do is leave a nice clear trail then sit and wait with a rifle. There is more than one pile of old bones back in those hills. Hell I found a leg bone in the shrub fill in front of my house.

 

[Not Peralta]

Cubfan64, I am shocked,you never got your hover craft yet? The best people for keeping secrets and verbal history in the west was the native people ,not very much got by them. the problem with that is it was so secret they didn't know what it was. np

 

[cactusjumper]

NP,

People in those days treated their animals a bit different than they do today. They would ride them through country that todays riders would not even contemplate. OK Corral uses horses for packing and riding in the Supe's.

The Indians would ride there horses til they collapsed, then cut off a few steaks, eat a quick meal and look for another ride.

I believe how you ride in the Superstitions is more important than what you ride. Experience counts a bunch. I would say ask Tom K. or Greg Davis.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Not Peralta]

NP,

People in those days treated their animals a bit different than they do today. They would ride them through country that todays riders would not even contemplate. OK Corral uses horses for packing and riding in the Supe's.

The Indians would ride there horses til they collapsed, then cut off a few steaks, eat a quick meal and look for another ride.

I believe how you ride in the Superstitions is more important than what you ride. Experience counts a bunch. I would say ask Tom K. or Greg Davis.

Joe Ribaudo

yes, I agree I covered part of that a few post back, in post #2316.np

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Springfield - and have to also agree with Cubfan & Cactusjumper; hence the choice of a mule may have little bearing on the location of the mine. We might also make an incorrect assumption to think that Waltz NEEDED pack animal(s) to get to his mine, the big reason for having a pack animal, is to carry your equipment and supplies, and on the return trip, to help carry out the gold. That may be the big reason why Waltz had a mule, not that it was needed to get IN.

We might consider that alleged clue about you could "drive an Army pack train over the mine.." as a hint about what the topography is like; it may be possible to access it with a mule directly, which would rule out some of the more extreme, vertical and rough ground that some Dutch hunters have risked life and limb exploring over the years. Correspondingly, the Weiser story, while not directly describing the ground where the mine is, does not sound like extremely rough ground, and he was able to flee rapidly which would not be possible in cliffs.

To tie this in to the topic, do the stone tablets lead to somewhere other than the Superstitions, I would say that is very possible, however I do not see any reason to link them to Jacob Waltz.


Oroblanco

 

[Not Peralta]

Thank you Springfield - and have to also agree with Cubfan & Cactusjumper; hence the choice of a mule may have little bearing on the location of the mine. We might also make an incorrect assumption to think that Waltz NEEDED pack animal(s) to get to his mine, the big reason for having a pack animal, is to carry your equipment and supplies, and on the return trip, to help carry out the gold. That may be the big reason why Waltz had a mule, not that it was needed to get IN.

We might consider that alleged clue about you could "drive an Army pack train over the mine.." as a hint about what the topography is like; it may be possible to access it with a mule directly, which would rule out some of the more extreme, vertical and rough ground that some Dutch hunters have risked life and limb exploring over the years. Correspondingly, the Weiser story, while not directly describing the ground where the mine is, does not sound like extremely rough ground, and he was able to flee rapidly which would not be possible in cliffs.

To tie this in to the topic, do the stone tablets lead to somewhere other than the Superstitions, I would say that is very possible, however I do not see any reason to link them to Jacob Waltz.


Oroblanco

Oroblanco, I now have some hot fresh JACOB WHO? np

 

[cactusjumper]

Thank you Springfield - and have to also agree with Cubfan & Cactusjumper; hence the choice of a mule may have little bearing on the location of the mine. We might also make an incorrect assumption to think that Waltz NEEDED pack animal(s) to get to his mine, the big reason for having a pack animal, is to carry your equipment and supplies, and on the return trip, to help carry out the gold. That may be the big reason why Waltz had a mule, not that it was needed to get IN.

We might consider that alleged clue about you could "drive an Army pack train over the mine.." as a hint about what the topography is like; it may be possible to access it with a mule directly, which would rule out some of the more extreme, vertical and rough ground that some Dutch hunters have risked life and limb exploring over the years. Correspondingly, the Weiser story, while not directly describing the ground where the mine is, does not sound like extremely rough ground, and he was able to flee rapidly which would not be possible in cliffs.

To tie this in to the topic, do the stone tablets lead to somewhere other than the Superstitions, I would say that is very possible, however I do not see any reason to link them to Jacob Waltz.


Oroblanco

Roy,

Are you saying it's just a coincidence that my layout on a Topo matches the Stone Map Trail so closely?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

cactusjumper, sounds like a good place for a toll road.np

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Are you saying it's just a coincidence that my layout on a Topo matches the Stone Map Trail so closely?

Take care,

Joe

Are you putting words into my mouth amigo?

The stone maps are vague enough that they can fit a number of different areas, even into Utah, pretty well. The scale of the maps is not shown on them, and while your solution fits very well, it is quite possible that the markers found <in the Superstitions> were emplaced by someone to make it fit the stone maps, rather than vice versa. I still think the eighteen "spots" are a hint at the scale, that they would be a days travel apart, which will not work with your (or any other) solution fitting the stone maps to the Superstitions. It is still a point that bothers me that the stone maps do not have Weavers Needle or Four Peaks clearly and unmistakably indicated on them, which are the most obvious landmarks that would indicate the maps go to the Superstitions unquestionably. If the maps are real and over a century old, my bet would be that they do not go to the Superstitions at all but that is a mighty big IF. Just an opinion covering a point we have gone over some time ago.


I hope all is well with you, looking forward to seeing you in Oct.!
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Are you putting words into my mouth amigo?

The stone maps are vague enough that they can fit a number of different areas, even into Utah, pretty well. The scale of the maps is not shown on them, and while your solution fits very well, it is quite possible that the markers found <in the Superstitions> were emplaced by someone to make it fit the stone maps, rather than vice versa. I still think the eighteen "spots" are a hint at the scale, that they would be a days travel apart, which will not work with your (or any other) solution fitting the stone maps to the Superstitions. It is still a point that bothers me that the stone maps do not have Weavers Needle or Four Peaks clearly and unmistakably indicated on them, which are the most obvious landmarks that would indicate the maps go to the Superstitions unquestionably. If the maps are real and over a century old, my bet would be that they do not go to the Superstitions at all but that is a mighty big IF. Just an opinion covering a point we have gone over some time ago.


I hope all is well with you, looking forward to seeing you in Oct.!
Oroblanco

Roy,

The Four Peaks are shown on the Stone Maps. It's a representation as seen from the ridge, thus not in the exact location on the stones.

The only way you know where Weaver's Needle is on the Stone Map Trail is to know the landmarks/canyons/trails all around it. That really takes time in the mountains to see it.

I will be happy to sit down at the Rendezvous to explain it and answer any questions......best I can. I'm not so interested as I once was.

We are looking forward to seeing you and Beth as well.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

The 18 hole are distance markers

 

[cactusjumper]

The 18 hole are distance markers

Frank,

I would have to disagree with that. Having said that, I have been wrong before. I would like to see.....someday, your map laid out on a Topo.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Thank you Springfield - and have to also agree with Cubfan & Cactusjumper; hence the choice of a mule may have little bearing on the location of the mine. We might also make an incorrect assumption to think that Waltz NEEDED pack animal(s) to get to his mine, the big reason for having a pack animal, is to carry your equipment and supplies, and on the return trip, to help carry out the gold. That may be the big reason why Waltz had a mule, not that it was needed to get IN.

We might consider that alleged clue about you could "drive an Army pack train over the mine.." as a hint about what the topography is like; it may be possible to access it with a mule directly, which would rule out some of the more extreme, vertical and rough ground that some Dutch hunters have risked life and limb exploring over the years. Correspondingly, the Weiser story, while not directly describing the ground where the mine is, does not sound like extremely rough ground, and he was able to flee rapidly which would not be possible in cliffs.

To tie this in to the topic, do the stone tablets lead to somewhere other than the Superstitions, I would say that is very possible, however I do not see any reason to link them to Jacob Waltz.


Oroblanco

Or that Waltz, knowing well that his burro could easily be tracked by most of his peers, did leave tracks, but that they did not stop at his mine/cache/whatnot, but in a bit of spy tradecraft could well have intentionally gone right over it, or right past it. Anyone tracking him would have kept on going.