Do the Stone Tablets lead to somewhere OTHER than the Superstition Mtns?

[markmar]

Sarge

Now you understand why the trail is " PELIGROSA " .

 

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[sgtfda]

No stone cross . The numbers are on a mountain side and are depicted in the begining of the stone trail . That picture was took from afar and high .
The same mountain side from the base

<img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1020107"/>

One little problem. There are no mountains at the start of the trail. Just some low hills.

 

[cactusjumper]

One little problem. There are no mountains at the start of the trail. Just some low hills.

Frank,

All depends on where you start your trail.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Well at least at the start of the gold trail. True there are other trails leading to other things.

 

[coazon de oro]

The many arrastres in use at the time would have provided quite a number of flat stones to choose from. Why would the maker go to a lot of trouble carving out a heart shaped opening, only to pick out a heart of the wrong thickness only because he didn't want to walk far enough to find a stone of the right thickness?



Why would you doubt the veracity of that story? Neither Tom, Al, or Clay doubted that discovery, and they were much closer to him. Tom has seen the book.

Also, Abe was not a treasure hunter. He was a retired schoolteacher who wouldn't have been able to afford the price of a rare book (never mind burying it in the mountains as a joke). What motive would he have to lie about something he had zero knowledge of?

The other thing is, why would three different fraudsters (CP, Stone Maps, Stone Crosses) have seen the need to steal or copy a design from the others?

Seems to me a fraudster would not dare to be linked in any way to another treasure map or stone that was suspected to be a fake.

Howdy deducer,

They had no need to walk miles, or climb mountains to find the perfect stones, because they were not trying for a masterpiece, they were just making a map.

I have never doubted the existence of the book. Al has left us, and we a fortunate to still have Tom, and Clay with us, but they are human. They have made mistakes before, and will probably make a few more before they go.

I don't have the answers to all your questions of why some did what they did, I just have my opinion.

I don't see three different fraudsters, just two. Again I can't answer all your whys, but look at all the LDM maps out there, how many have Weaver's Needle, Four Peaks, El Sombrero, or Salt River? Since most are fraudsters why dare to be linked to others? They were all just trying to link their maps to the LDM. In this same way the fraudsters tried to link their creations to the same treasure as the PSM's.

Homar

 

[sgtfda]

Frank,

All depends on where you start your trail.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe don't forget the Florence quad horse and the elephant on the horse rear. You do know where the elephant lives and the address.

 

[coazon de oro]

Yet, your username is a misspelling of the word "corazon."

Doesn't mean that you are a fake, or that you aren't fluent in Spanish.

Howdy deducer,

You missed the point, I have never claimed the stone crosses were fake because of misspellings, or that a fluent Spanish speaker will not misspell his, or her language. I believe you are confusing what Mike pointed out, which is normal. Many highly educated individuals have trouble spelling, they don't do it on purpose either, some can catch their mistakes by proof reading, while others still can't. This doesn't take away anything from their acquired knowledge.

The Spanish language has been claimed to be hard to learn, because things are somehow said backwards from the English translation, and to top it off it includes gender, which sometimes has exceptions to the rule. Gender is the barrier that separates the fluent from the rest. Even a fluent Spanish speaker with no education, gets the gender right. If he can write a little, he may have some misspelling, but the gender will be right.

I only took the misspelled version of the heart from the PSM's out of my passion for the solve, and because the heart in my opinion is full of gold, not so much that I have a heart of gold, but it sounds good.

Homar

 

[rochha]

Jesuits misspelled words on purpose to draw your attention to those words, a common practice when maps rocks or documents relating to treasure were created by them.......a very crafty and deceitful bunch!!

Rochha

 

[cactusjumper]

Charlie,

So you discount honest mistakes? Assuming you are correct, how do you read what was in the mind of each particular Jesuit when they created this deceitful code? Seems like finding the treasure and working backward 'til you reach the misspelled word is the only way to break the single word code.

Hope all is well with you. Where ya been?

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Howdy deducer,

They had no need to walk miles, or climb mountains to find the perfect stones, because they were not trying for a masterpiece, they were just making a map.

I have never doubted the existence of the book. Al has left us, and we a fortunate to still have Tom, and Clay with us, but they are human. They have made mistakes before, and will probably make a few more before they go.

I don't have the answers to all your questions of why some did what they did, I just have my opinion.

I don't see three different fraudsters, just two. Again I can't answer all your whys, but look at all the LDM maps out there, how many have Weaver's Needle, Four Peaks, El Sombrero, or Salt River? Since most are fraudsters why dare to be linked to others? They were all just trying to link their maps to the LDM. In this same way the fraudsters tried to link their creations to the same treasure as the PSM's.

Homar

I understand that you have your opinion and respect it. I am only here to ask questions and keep an open mind as far as getting to the bottom of the Stone Maps mystery.

While you are correct that there are plenty of misleading and fraudulent maps as far as the LDM, I would point out that those maps are on paper and fairly easy to fake.

But carving stones is something completely different. It represents a huge amount of time and effort.

And not only that, but pretty much everyone is in agreement that whoever did the Stone Maps had an intimate knowledge of the Supes.

So someone or some party had been in the Supes for a considerable amount of time, and also devoted a lot of time in designing the Stone Maps which contain abstract images that are also anthropomorphic. Neither Tumlinson or DeGrazia were known for incorporating either style in their artwork.

And all of this as a practical joke? If so, then it was quite cruel because people have died as a result, because nobody has come forward to put an end to this joke in order to prevent further death.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wonder how long it took to scratch these marks into this stone?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[JeromeAz]

I understand that you have your opinion and respect it. I am only here to ask questions and keep an open mind as far as getting to the bottom of the Stone Maps mystery.

While you are correct that there are plenty of misleading and fraudulent maps as far as the LDM, I would point out that those maps are on paper and fairly easy to fake.

But carving stones is something completely different. It represents a huge amount of time and effort.

And not only that, but pretty much everyone is in agreement that whoever did the Stone Maps had an intimate knowledge of the Supes.

So someone or some party had been in the Supes for a considerable amount of time, and also devoted a lot of time in designing the Stone Maps which contain abstract images that are also anthropomorphic. Neither Tumlinson or DeGrazia were known for incorporating either style in their artwork.

And all of this as a practical joke? If so, then it was quite cruel because people have died as a result, because nobody has come forward to put an end to this joke in order to prevent further death.

Even if someone did come forward there would still be a lot of people that wouldn't believe them and they would still be out there searching. And dying.

 

[markmar]

Hi Homar

I want to show you an overlay of the Latin heart ( reversed ) . The map is 98% accurate and has little altered his shape because the overlay takes the land morphology . With the red lines is the " TRIANGULUM " which points the mine an we could see in the stone trail . The blue arrow shows downstream .

 

[gollum]

Howdy Mike,

It is not that I want them to be fakes, they are what they are, that's all. I am also not trying to change your theories, and beliefs. I stated before that I am only making others aware of this fact so that they can come to their own conclusions.

I also stated before that you have a better grasp of the Spanish language than most searchers here, I have seen your translations in the Jesuit threads. However, this is not a case of misspelling, it is gender, the biggest giveaway of all in the Spanish language.

When people don't understand something, most will disregard it, few will try to understand it.

Homar

Homar,

I understand what you are saying, and to a point, I agree. There is a big difference between someone writing "Las Eglasias" and "Los Iglesias". I would think that almost all (even the less schooled) Spanish Speakers would not make that mistake. If you misspell a word by spelling it phonetically (cabollo instead of caballo), that can be put down to a lack of proper schooling. A Spanish Speaking person has been hearing las animas, los tesoros, las cuevas, mucha panocha, etc. Even if they misspell a word, they get the gender correct.

This just adds to my theory that the stone maps were carved by Jesuits that needed a map to their hidden wealth that was long term and weatherproof. A German Jesuit that had only been exposed to Spanish for a year or so (most of the Jesuits that had a lot of mining knowledge were German born) might make those very mistakes. Although, I have to also admit the possibility they were made as fakes. Here is my problem with calling them fakes:

Michael Bilbrey was from Los Angeles. You can't get away from Spanish here (I live in Woodland Hills). He moved to SoAz, where you also can't get away from a lot of Spanish. He MUST have had some knowledge of the language. Also, if he was going to fake the crosses, he would have gotten a translation from a book, or from someone he knew that spoke Spanish. Being an intelligent guy, he would not have wanted to make a stupid mistake like that. He spent a lot of time in the Supers. After he found the Stone Crosses, he spent several years trying to decipher them (not the actions of a man that made them as fakes) before making their existence public. Bilbrey gave the Stone Crosses to Estee Conatser who took them to UCLA (I think). Greg Davis told this to Jim Hatt, who confirmed the story directly from Estee Conatser herself. UCLA told Conatser that they were not modern hoaxes.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT.................... you are free to believe anything you want.

Mike

 

[coazon de oro]

I understand that you have your opinion and respect it. I am only here to ask questions and keep an open mind as far as getting to the bottom of the Stone Maps mystery.

While you are correct that there are plenty of misleading and fraudulent maps as far as the LDM, I would point out that those maps are on paper and fairly easy to fake.

But carving stones is something completely different. It represents a huge amount of time and effort.

And not only that, but pretty much everyone is in agreement that whoever did the Stone Maps had an intimate knowledge of the Supes.

So someone or some party had been in the Supes for a considerable amount of time, and also devoted a lot of time in designing the Stone Maps which contain abstract images that are also anthropomorphic. Neither Tumlinson or DeGrazia were known for incorporating either style in their artwork.

And all of this as a practical joke? If so, then it was quite cruel because people have died as a result, because nobody has come forward to put an end to this joke in order to prevent further death.

Howdy deducer,

The ones who agree that whoever carved the maps must have had an intimate knowledge of the Superstitions, are those who believe that they have found a bunch of clues related to the map. Then you have some who believe others theories, and are wowed by how they were able to solve these clues. Like the horse that Frank posted, many believe that to be the Horse of Santa Fe, and are wowed at how it was found, thinking the Peraltas knew that area really well.
Take for example the guy claiming to have found the treasure, but of course they won't give him a permit to dig it up. He not only claims to have followed the PSM's, but the crosses, and Latin Heart as well, followed Kenworthy's book, and "post road", and followed Barry Storm's Peralta Master Map. Really?

Kenworthy wrote a book of Spanish signs after the PSM's had come to light. This is where he got those symbols from, and without any proof at all, gave them his meaning, such as Tobias for the bracketed cross. These were his ideas, and many follow the book claiming to find stuff, just like they follow the fake crosses, claiming to find stuff. The Peralta Master Map was Barry Storm's idea, and you have some who believe it, and try to follow it.

Don't be fooled thinking wow, this guy is a real treasure hunter, how did he solve that, I would of never seen that, and still can't see it. Look at all the who have claimed to have found it, and try to follow their train of thought without getting derailed. Try to see what they claim to see, and you will soon realize that most things are just in their heads.
A real solve can be followed by everyone, and all the clues can be seen clearly.

I tend to ramble, so back to the topic, the maker, or makers of the PSM's did not need to have an intimate knowledge of the Superstitions, they just needed to be familiar with the area they were covering. Take for example the Forrest Fenn treasure, searchers have made the clues fit in several different states, in several different counties of each state. Did Mr. Fenn have an intimate knowdledge of all these places? Of course not, only of the spot where he hid his treasure.

In my opinion, neither Tumlinson, or DeGrazia were capable of creating the PSM's. The PSM's are original, and stand alone, if you think they are a practical joke, why try to solve them? We die because we a mortals, if some have died following their dream, maybe it was just their time to go, or they went unprepared, or had a case of bad luck, the PSM's have nothing to do with it.

Homar

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Howdy deducer,

You missed the point, I have never claimed the stone crosses were fake because of misspellings, or that a fluent Spanish speaker will not misspell his, or her language. I believe you are confusing what Mike pointed out, which is normal. Many highly educated individuals have trouble spelling, they don't do it on purpose either, some can catch their mistakes by proof reading, while others still can't. This doesn't take away anything from their acquired knowledge.

The Spanish language has been claimed to be hard to learn, because things are somehow said backwards from the English translation, and to top it off it includes gender, which sometimes has exceptions to the rule. Gender is the barrier that separates the fluent from the rest. Even a fluent Spanish speaker with no education, gets the gender right. If he can write a little, he may have some misspelling, but the gender will be right.

I only took the misspelled version of the heart from the PSM's out of my passion for the solve, and because the heart in my opinion is full of gold, not so much that I have a heart of gold, but it sounds good.

Homar

Squeal wants you to harvest some of that.

In fact he documents his efforts on a horse with no name as well.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Wonder how long it took to scratch these marks into this stone?

Joe Ribaudo

I can't wait anymore. Tell us already. How long did it take you

 

[deducer]

Even if someone did come forward there would still be a lot of people that wouldn't believe them and they would still be out there searching. And dying.

In comparison to the labor of creating those stones, documenting the process of doing so would have been fairly simple, for proof or posterity. I imagine anyone who put in all that work would most certainly have preserved some kind of proof, in order to take credit for it.

There are always going to be doubters just as there are always going to be conspiracy theorists, but anyone coming forth with proof would certainly put this thing to bed for the most part.

 

[deducer]

Howdy deducer,

You missed the point, I have never claimed the stone crosses were fake because of misspellings, or that a fluent Spanish speaker will not misspell his, or her language. I believe you are confusing what Mike pointed out, which is normal. Many highly educated individuals have trouble spelling, they don't do it on purpose either, some can catch their mistakes by proof reading, while others still can't. This doesn't take away anything from their acquired knowledge.

The Spanish language has been claimed to be hard to learn, because things are somehow said backwards from the English translation, and to top it off it includes gender, which sometimes has exceptions to the rule. Gender is the barrier that separates the fluent from the rest. Even a fluent Spanish speaker with no education, gets the gender right. If he can write a little, he may have some misspelling, but the gender will be right.

I only took the misspelled version of the heart from the PSM's out of my passion for the solve, and because the heart in my opinion is full of gold, not so much that I have a heart of gold, but it sounds good.

Homar

What I am trying to say is that anyone looking at your username without reading your posts is going to make the snap judgment that you don't know Spanish. It wouldn't occur to them that you took your inspiration from the Stone Maps, or that you were intelligent or that you are, in fact, fluent in Spanish.

Just as it doesn't occur to most people that the misspelling and "mangling" of the genders on the Stone Maps may in fact, be intentional.

 

[JeromeAz]

In comparison to the labor of creating those stones, documenting the process of doing so would have been fairly simple, for proof or posterity. I imagine anyone who put in all that work would most certainly have preserved some kind of proof, in order to take credit for it.

There are always going to be doubters just as there are always going to be conspiracy theorists, but anyone coming forth with proof would certainly put this thing to bed for the most part.

OK so they convince everyone the stones are fake. They'll say ok they're fake now let's get out there and search for the Lost Dutchman Mine or die trying. Or Well there's still got to be some kind of Spanish treasure hid out there we can find.