Do the Stone Tablets lead to somewhere OTHER than the Superstition Mtns?

[JeromeAz]

Travis ran a fruit camp. They made him a officer so he could control the workers camp problems. He was not a regular officer. He kept the migrants in line.
Mystery Gold of the Superstitions. By Robert L Garman. Buy it , read it copies still out there.

By the way. I did Google him before this post and it said he was a police officer in Portland, Oregon. I also read on TNet somewhere that someone said he was a police officer from Portland. Guess I'll just have to read the books.

 

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[deducer]

Howdy deducer,

The Heart Stone was found together with the trail stones in the same hole that the Priest/Horse stone was found a year before. It is pictured inserted in the top trail stone in the car bumper picture taken right after their discovery. The fit is irrelevant when they were found together, and the trails match.

The Latin Heart came after the PSM's had been on display for anyone to make a perfect fit.

You are correct in that the PSM's were not the first things found. The symbols on the PSM's have been copied before, and after their discovery. You will have to find this on your own. Is it not strange that Abe R. found a rock that no one else has found, and also found the book with the same drawing in the mountains? What are the odds?

I have given you the reason the crosses are fake, the maker stole that phrase from Abe's "find", or elsewhere.

Homar

Then I would like to ask you why the maker(s) of the Stone Maps went to so much trouble to carve the maps and then suddenly construct a heart that not only is not the same color or material, but doesn't fit in the cavity he carefully carved? Would a fabricator do such a thing?

In regard to Abe Reid, you may be interested to know that there were not just one, but two books found in the mountains, both by different people, a few decades apart. Tom Kollenborn has personally vouched for this story as he has seen the book itself, so this story is beyond reproach. Clay Worst and Al Reser were also involved, and they too are beyond reproach.

 

[deducer]

Jim Hatt had some very interesting things to say about the Stone Crosses:

I have always realized that Bilbrey could have fabricated the crosses based on his knowledge of the area, and used landmarks that he knew did exist in that area.

Weaknesses in that train of thought are:

1 – Why would he have fabricated two crosses when one would have been enough? The one with the landmarks on it would have been enough to promote a scam. Especially when he could have shown the locations of all the landmarks. (If he had made them using landmarks that he knew existed).

2 – why did he invest so much time into solving the crosses before making them public? Why did he continue searching alone after his partners lost faith?

3 – Why would he use words on the second cross that were not easily translated? To this day, I cannot find a translation for the word SOMEO. Why would he not verify the correct spelling of the other common words used?

4 – The fact that he may have tried to use them to attract investors is not evidence that they are fakes. It only indicates that he needed money to continue his search. Assuming that they are Authentic, or at least that Michael believed they were. I think most Treasure Hunters, would have done the same thing. Mel Fisher and Chuck Kenworthy operated that way for decades.

5 – The story going around about him refusing to have them authenticated is not true. He actually let Estee Conatser take possession of them, and take them to a University for the purpose of having that done. I was told this by Greg Davis, and verified it myself via direct conversation with her in her home in Apache Junction. Sadly, and just as is the case with the other pieces of the stone maps… There is no way to authentic the date of carvings on rocks once they have been cleaned of all organic material. Add to that... Some of the words were misspelled, and others were not translatable, which would cause any skeptical professional to lean towards dismissing them as not being authentic.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Gentlemen, let's keep all issues that arise on other forums off TN forums please.

MODS from other Treasure forums are welcome to contact any TN mod via PM if they feel there is issue we shoukd be aware of, but we perfer to keep conflicts from other websites off our open forums..

 

[deducer]

Also, in regard to Michael Bilbrey whose character has been attacked here (no surprise). Here are the facts:

1) His Stone Crosses activity took place many years before he was taken to court over the 'cancer cure' incident.

2) As far as I know, his side of the story has never been released, so it is not proper to accuse him. We don't even know if he made the 'cancer cure' or was merely selling it for a percentage of the profit (the most likely scenario).

Also here is something that someone had to say about the whole thing, which was very well said:

As far as selling the Snake Oil and going to prison. Let me tell you a little story. I once worked for a guy who went to prison for selling herbal supplements. The only thing he did wrong was in his ad, was to list it as FDA approved, when in fact it was only FDA recognized, or some other technical wording. The point being, at the time, he did not know you couldn't put that in an ad, and did it very unknowingly that it was illegal. Needless to say, the FDA takes that infraction as serious as a heart attack. He had the finances for a very good defense, but still lost, and did time, I think 16 months. When he got out, he went back to selling the same herbal suppliment with proper wording, and has had no problem since. I guess the point being, he was a really good guy to work for, I trusted him, and he had done prison time. So, I cannot assassinate someones character for going to prison. If someone does not know Bilbrey personally, without a grudge, than it is only assumption as to his character.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Miguel... Yo no se nada de esas cosas...Apenas se como lear y escribir poquito Engles y menos Espanol...Pero Si te puedo décir una cosa ...He visto Algunas cosas con mis ojos que ninguno de ustedes han visto...Y no creo que lo van a ver tampoco... Pero nimodo... asi es la vida...Ojala que todo que tu sabes te serve por algo...jajaja

Ed T

Per our rules please speak english..

 

[gollum]

Frank,

I will be there again this year. Love to take a walk with ya.

EdT,

I hope so too. Thanks HAHAHA

Jerome,

Cops can also have talents. Travis had been carving stone since childhood. I don't have the time right now to guide you to it, but I believe on the Feldman's Lost Dutchman Mine Forums, where Garry and I did so much research, there is a lot about (including pictures) of some of Travis' other carvings.

Also about Waltz' highgrading; that myth has been disproved a looooooooong time ago. As early as the late 1980's maybe. Joe Porterie was the Head Assayer at the Vulture Mine during that time. He saw the LDM Ore after Waltz died. He said that the ore he saw was NOTHING like any of the ore that ever came out of the Vulture Mine. Tom Glover had the matchbox tested, and the ore+matrix did not come from any known mine. NOBODY has ever been able to confirm that Waltz ever worked at the Vulture Mine in any capacity. Need more?

Mike

 

[gollum]

Per our rules please speak english..

Bluedeer was just responding to my statement that I can translate Colonial Spanish Documents. Nothing bad nor insulting. Just saying that he has seen many things and he hoped my knowledge might serve me well.

Mike

 

[coazon de oro]

Then I would like to ask you why the maker(s) of the Stone Maps went to so much trouble to carve the maps and then suddenly construct a heart that not only is not the same color or material, but doesn't fit in the cavity he carefully carved? Would a fabricator do such a thing?

In regard to Abe Reid, you may be interested to know that there were not just one, but two books found in the mountains, both by different people, a few decades apart. Tom Kollenborn has personally vouched for this story as he has seen the book itself, so this story is beyond reproach. Clay Worst and Al Reser were also involved, and they too are beyond reproach.

I don't see why it would really matter, but it was probably because it was the only flat stone they could find thin enough to fit in there.

Yes I was aware that two books were found, but Abe "found" the one with the same drawing on the stone.

Homar

 

[gollum]

Mike,

I believe you are misquoting Bob here:

"Just like the FBI Agent personally told Bob Corbin that the FBI Lab had examined the Stone Maps and it was their opinion that they were over 100 years old."

Bob and I have discussed this many times. The FBI had no interest in the Stone Maps. I specifically called Bob one night to get the straight scoop on what he had told Jim Hatt. That exchange with Jim may very well still be over on DUSA or here. Don't remember which place we discussed it.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

I have not misquoted Bob one iota. When I called him after you made the introduction for me, that was one of the first things I asked him about. Since I was just talking with him, I didn't take a lot of notes (especially since this story was so well documented). I took copious notes on the whole conversation about Marie Celeste and Bob's whole involvement with her group. Greg Davis is a stellar record keeper, and here is his quote from Bob Corbin:

"It was approximately in the late 1960's, I believe, that I was at the U.S. Attorneys office in Phoenix, when one of the Deputy U.S. Attorneys told me that an FBI agent from the FBI laboratory in Washington DC was in their office. Apparently, the Phoenix office had obtained the stone maps to have them analyzed by the FBI laboratory to see if they were recent fakes. He asked if I would like to speak with the agent since I was interested in the Lost Dutchman Mine and I said I would. I spoke with the agent and asked him what they had found in analyzing the stone maps. He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundred years old. To my recollection that's all he said about the maps.

Bob Corbin."

Mike

 

[coazon de oro]

See Homar,

Because they negate your theory, you want them to be fakes. While I agree that it is very possible they are fakes, intended to make Bilbrey some money, I also think it is just as possible they are authentic. You claim to know this for certain, but I can translate colonial Spanish Documents. I can read Chain Writing, Cortesana, Procesal, and Humanistica. I can tell what the great majority of the abbreviations are. And with all that, I can't begin to tell you how many "SCHOLARS", "Politicians", Priests, and "Scribes" severely misspell words in many official documents and letters.

I'm not trying to make you change your theories and beliefs. I am simply trying to guide people down a path in which they make decisions based on known facts, and if those facts change, be open to changing (and in some cases throwing out) their own theories. It has happened to me a few times over a variety of theories in different subjects.

ONE WORD: EVOLUTION.

Mike

Howdy Mike,

It is not that I want them to be fakes, they are what they are, that's all. I am also not trying to change your theories, and beliefs. I stated before that I am only making others aware of this fact so that they can come to their own conclusions.

I also stated before that you have a better grasp of the Spanish language than most searchers here, I have seen your translations in the Jesuit threads. However, this is not a case of misspelling, it is gender, the biggest giveaway of all in the Spanish language.

When people don't understand something, most will disregard it, few will try to understand it.

Homar

 

[deducer]

I don't see why it would really matter, but it was probably because it was the only flat stone they could find thin enough to fit in there.

The many arrastres in use at the time would have provided quite a number of flat stones to choose from. Why would the maker go to a lot of trouble carving out a heart shaped opening, only to pick out a heart of the wrong thickness only because he didn't want to walk far enough to find a stone of the right thickness?

Yes I was aware that two books were found, but Abe "found" the one with the same drawing on the stone.
Homar

Why would you doubt the veracity of that story? Neither Tom, Al, or Clay doubted that discovery, and they were much closer to him. Tom has seen the book.

Also, Abe was not a treasure hunter. He was a retired schoolteacher who wouldn't have been able to afford the price of a rare book (never mind burying it in the mountains as a joke). What motive would he have to lie about something he had zero knowledge of?

The other thing is, why would three different fraudsters (CP, Stone Maps, Stone Crosses) have seen the need to steal or copy a design from the others?

Seems to me a fraudster would not dare to be linked in any way to another treasure map or stone that was suspected to be a fake.

 

[deducer]

Howdy Mike,

It is not that I want them to be fakes, they are what they are, that's all. I am also not trying to change your theories, and beliefs. I stated before that I am only making others aware of this fact so that they can come to their own conclusions.

I also stated before that you have a better grasp of the Spanish language than most searchers here, I have seen your translations in the Jesuit threads. However, this is not a case of misspelling, it is gender, the biggest giveaway of all in the Spanish language.

When people don't understand something, most will disregard it, few will try to understand it.

Homar

Yet, your username is a misspelling of the word "corazon."

Doesn't mean that you are a fake, or that you aren't fluent in Spanish.

 

[sgtfda]

The Jesuits had nothing to do with the stone maps. The person that carved them knew the area very well. I also think looking at the copies throw folks off. It surprising how many copies are out there. Then you have the differences between the stones and the Peralta Tesora map

 

[JeromeAz]

Frank,

I will be there again this year. Love to take a walk with ya.

EdT,

I hope so too. Thanks HAHAHA

Jerome,

Cops can also have talents. Travis had been carving stone since childhood. I don't have the time right now to guide you to it, but I believe on the Feldman's Lost Dutchman Mine Forums, where Garry and I did so much research, there is a lot about (including pictures) of some of Travis' other carvings.

Also about Waltz' highgrading; that myth has been disproved a looooooooong time ago. As early as the late 1980's maybe. Joe Porterie was the Head Assayer at the Vulture Mine during that time. He saw the LDM Ore after Waltz died. He said that the ore he saw was NOTHING like any of the ore that ever came out of the Vulture Mine. Tom Glover had the matchbox tested, and the ore+matrix did not come from any known mine. NOBODY has ever been able to confirm that Waltz ever worked at the Vulture Mine in any capacity. Need more?

Mike

True, people do have talents, hobbies. Apparently he was good enough to carve stone maps and pass them off as the real thing, if that's what he did. That's just what I've heard. What makes me wonder is he manage to stop where he did and dug up another stone carvers work. What are the odds.

I'm not knowledgeable on the stones and LDM like you guys. I heard years ago he was high grading. Now I stand corrected. I guess that means I'm going to have to go searching too. So just look for me in the paper as being lost in the Supes.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Bluedeer was just responding to my statement that I can translate Colonial Spanish Documents. Nothing bad nor insulting. Just saying that he has seen many things and he hoped my knowledge might serve me well.

Mike

I know Mike, Google translator works well. ..[emoji106] Just reminding the rules...

 

[gollum]

True, people do have talents, hobbies. Apparently he was good enough to carve stone maps and pass them off as the real thing, if that's what he did. That's just what I've heard. What makes me wonder is he manage to stop where he did and dug up another stone carvers work. What are the odds.

I'm not knowledgeable on the stones and LDM like you guys. I heard years ago he was high grading. Now I stand corrected. I guess that means I'm going to have to go searching too. So just look for me in the paper as being lost in the Supes.

I have to say that Cactusjumper may have called it way back in 2006. I read a post of his where he stated he thought the Horse/Priest Stone was a fake and the trail map stones were authentic. Good call Joe!

Jerome,

Besides the possibility of the stones being faked, I don't believe they were faked by Travis Tumlinson. His daughter told me with no equivocation that her dad did not hoax the stone maps. We know for a fact that he "added" things to the stone maps to throw people off if they were ever stolen. We just don't know what it was he added.

Mike

 

[markmar]

Sarge

These numbers and symbols remind you something about the stone trail ?



And to the south of these numbers , on the same mountain , is the " RIO " mark .



Here is the place which is depicted with the words " ORO JESUITA ' in the DeGrazia painting .

 

[sgtfda]

Sarge

These numbers and symbols remind you something about the stone trail ?

<img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1020101"/>

And to the south of these numbers , on the same mountain , is the " RIO " mark .

<img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1020102"/>

Here is the place which is depicted with the words " ORO JESUITA ' in the DeGrazia painting .

That photo is hard to make out. Stone cross?

 

[markmar]

That photo is hard to make out. Stone cross?

No stone cross . The numbers are on a mountain side and are depicted in the begining of the stone trail . That picture was took from afar and high .
The same mountain side from the base