Greetings Gollum and everyone,
Mike you have told us that the first stone discovered was the Witch stone, then said it was the Don/Cross stone, well here is a tidbit from the discussion of the giant footprint discovered on your recommended website, The History Hunters:
While on top of this hill he stumbled over a piece of rock slightly exposed in the sand below his feet. Thinking the rock was rather finely shaped, he inspected it closer and ultimately dug it out of the sand. What he had discovered was a rectangular piece of sandstone appearing rock, measuring approximately 17"x 22"x 3" and weighing about 25 pounds. This stone was the "Horse and Priest Map".
Now dang it which stone was first? It does not matter too much to me since I am pretty convinced these stones are frauds (and cannot PROVE they are either fraudulent NOR genuine) but now it is just confusing as to which stone was first discovered as "sticking out of the ground" at least in part, which SHOULD have left a mineral-water stain line at the very least. If you do not know which stone was first, then just say so, as all we can work from is photographs but from your posts on the History Hunters you are well aware that a stone out in the elements for at least 100 years SHOULD show the tell-tale signs of weathering, even if only a PART of the stone was exposed to the air - despite the fact that stone buried in the ground frequently is eroded in a much harsher action due to acidity or alkalinity. This matter of which stone was sticking out of the ground is not really going to make or break the whole issue, and not terribly important but I am still trying to become a "believer" in these danged stones and just can't get past the look of them, let alone the unlikely fact that they would even exist in the first place. I keep being pulled back to that, whether it is more likely that there would be so many lost mines (which were apparently incredibly difficult to find in the first place, which is questionable on the basis of Spanish/Mexican abilities as prospectors, then covered up leaving no trace by the Apaches? Then not a ONE of these mines is ever found by so many treasure hunters and prospectors for over one hundred years after the death of Jacob Waltz?) versus a single lost mine, then even if the Peraltas had a group of incredibly rich gold mines, that they would bother to make STONE maps to carry around instead of on leather, paper, wood etc - now a STONE map makes sense,
if it is engraved onto an
immobile boulder, but as a
portable map? Just weighing out the odds of so many illogical points keeps forcing me to the conclusion they are frauds. I truly would like to believe they are all too real, and only requires a man or woman to go follow them to find a bonanza in gold ore, but even ignoring who AND how they were found, ignoring the fact they just don't look right to me compared to how they should look, ignoring the fact that the finders USED the maps for YEARS to search for a lost mine and failed utterly, ignoring the oddities on the stones themselves like the odd mis-spelling of Corazon, ignoring the opinions of "experts" who have been able to examine the stones in hand and up close and stated their opinions either for
or against, ignoring the fact that there have doubtless been a number of others who have also used the maps to search for a lost mine and failed, ignoring the fact that what evidence we have of Peraltas mining in Arizona took place in the Bradshaws, not the Superstitions, ignoring the fact that the stones show remarkably little damage and that NONE were missing, much less that they were found by the same people, they just strike me as way too good to be true. Wouldn't it be
wonderful if these stone engravings
were the genuine article? I just can't believe it - why in the history of treasure maps to lost mines, the maps which proved to be genuine and correct are a VERY tiny minority among many. Ask Tropical Tramp how many treasure maps to lost mines he found to be genuine and correct - I will bet you that he will tell you ONE, that of Dobie to Tayopa, and even that one was incorrect to a degree.
I wish I
could be convinced these maps would lead me (or someone) to one of the lost mines of legend, that we could find an old Mexican recorded mining claim located in the Superstitions and owned by the Peraltas, or at least a will in which a Peralta had bequeathed a group of rich gold mines in the Superstitions to an heir, why we would have THE key to a massive source of wealth that only required the physical effort to go and retrieve it. I just can't get past my doubts on so many unlikely issues with the stones. I only expressed my doubts when Gollum used them as an example of how Spaniards would make a number "7" (seven) in stone inscriptions etc, and I did not feel they were a very good example to use because of the controversy over their validity. If only they
WERE real, we would be able to
SHOW a rich gold mine in the Superstitions and prove the legend of a lost gold mine in those infamous mountains to be absolutely true. However I am a bit saddened to have to say this but based on the evidence, the so-called "Peralta stone maps" are, on many grounds, far more likely to be FRAUDS. We can only guess as to the motives why a person would have gone to such efforts to fool people, but fraudulent stone inscriptions are all too common and we have no way of ever knowing exactly WHO would have done it, unless that person were to openly confess to it. Unfortunately, it is all too
uncommon for a person who has committed a fraud to come forward and admit to their crime - for it IS a crime (in my opinion) even if it were not against the law, to abuse the faith and hopes of people who have done you no harm, to have caused them to expend their time and efforts as well as resources in trying to follow up a falsehood, the resulting disappointment, fallen hopes and dreams, discouragement, simply for the forger's own personal entertainment or profit. If I could find out who made these pariah stones, I would kick his arse myself, for having perpetrated so cruel a hoax.
Gosh it would be great, if these Peralta stones were genuine wouldn't it? Why it would be a real simple deal to just pack your gear, head into the Superstitions and go right to a tremendously rich gold mine - then mine out (and then pack out) as much gold, (or gold ore) as you could carry - or bring along a pack horse or mule or burro to haul even more. To those of you (including Mike) who are of the opinion these stones are real maps, more power to you, good luck and good hunting I really do hope one of you can prove that the stone maps lead you to a lost gold mine. At the worst you will get up into beautiful country and away from the "maddening crowd" along with very good exercise, and who knows you might just find something. I can't get myself to believe in them enough to give them a try, so will never find out on my own. My apologies to everyone concerned for having gotten SO carried away with the debate over the validity of these stones, I did not start out with the intention of blathering
quite so much!
This subject has given me hours of entertainment and lively discussion so is not a total waste of time, at least for myself. However I think we have covered the many aspects of the issue fairly well, without successfully convincing
either of us to a change of opinion as to their validity. I guess that these stones will remain a source of controversy so long as they exist, to tempt treasure hunters into the Superstitions and raise the doubts of the skeptic, until it can be proven beyond doubt whether they are real or false. I like to think of myself as open-minded, as ready to put faith in the old tales and legends of lost mines and buried treasures, but in some cases even a Tinfoil Hat man just cannot buy into it, and these Peralta stones are that kind of case for me.
I just read your latest post. Whether there are eight or eighteen lost Peralta gold mines is only a number, one considerably larger than another, but still the odds of a group being un-discoverable versus the odds of a single mine remaining un-recovered are harder to accept. I still hold that $1200 was a "tidy sum" in 1961. You could buy a new or almost new car for that amount, then - today it will not buy nearly so much but is a fair sum for a set of stones that are not gemstones or precious metals. Now you say:
First, let me repeat myself: I don't say that they are real. I have never said it, and until I can find test results on the age of the stones, I will keep my position.
If you are unsure of their validity, why would you expend so much time propounding that they ARE genuine? Hmm...
You also seem to put a great deal of faith in the opinion of others -
I don't know. I have written Tom Kollenborn ( I got his address and phone# tonight), to see what he thinks, and his reasons for his beliefs. I am also in the process of finding Bob Corbin's info as well (He and his wife are both still alive). I know you said that Tom K thinks they are fakes. His opinion goes a long way with me. He has a ton of first hand knowledge about everything to do with the LDM, and nobody has ever claimed he was a BSer. If Bob Corbin tells me that he had the stones tested, I will take his word for it. Until I hear from them, I am still reserving judgement.
I would suggest simply decide for yourself, based on your own investigations and weighing out the various odds. To say that "all proofs against them have been shot down" is not exactly correct, as these points are very largely a matter of opinion - with some exceptions and even in these exceptions where we turn to experts for their opinion - it is still an OPINION, and you must know that on countless artifacts found even by trained archaeologists in controlled conditions, there are numerous occasions where the experts are divided in their opinions of the finds. Use your own judgement - the opinions of the experts is welcomed of course but should not be considered as THE final word for you or anyone else.
I wonder how many thousands of words we have expended here, so far? Dang it but if I could concentrate on writing that book with as much will-power, the thing would have been finished some time ago! However this has at least been an interesting (if controversial and sometimes insulting) discussion, even if we have failed to sway our fellow treasure hunters to our opinion. Far different from some of the political rants where the discussion sinks to the level of grade-schoolers calling names and insipid statements of groundless belief in or against some politician. I for one can appreciate that.
Oroblanco
"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?" --(wish I had said it) Groucho
