Whiskey Springs Maps

[cuzimloony]

To be honest....it is kind of unclear what he is saying in this video. He goes on to talk about production crew additions too. So to help clarify what he means, so that I can figure out what he's saying, I am utilizing a second video he made about the same subject.

 

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[SPARTANOC]

Cuz

In going over the video once again (might have been my 3rd time), I think there's some truth to what Wayne had stated. I believe if there's a group out there - watching over a particular area, it isn't out of the question as to if its believable. I don't feel that, what ever type of group it is, that they're organized. It does feel as if it's a 'generational' thing - a personal interest of a special area according to them (the group). I would though, lean towards a Native group of some type. I couldn't say which 'Native' group of people it could be, so that gets filed in the "who knows" filing cabinet.

I do understand in history - there's been many secret groups that we've all heard of, but do I feel that any of those said historical groups - being behind anything in the Supes; no I don't. I'm more inclined to believe that what ever group is out there, protecting something is more of a local native group to the area. I have heard stories that include strange people following others into the Supes, and also heard of some crazy sightings back in there (other stories from Wayne) - but to attribute those stories to a certain group that makes a point to scare someone or anyone that gets too close, just seems like a Tall Tale.

As for Wayne and the thought of Dutch hunters believing in the whole "spiritual or mystical", I don't think that's what he was saying. Yes, there are those Hunters that believe in all that mystical stuff - but most don't buy into it.

That being said - I've had personal experiences in my life - that can't be explained other than, going down the whole Spiritual rabbit hole. I don't put much into many of the conspiracies out there - but I do know, that some do come out as truth.

Wayne is an interesting kind of person. He claims he's a realist and at the same time - does give some credence to the strange stories - as if he entertains the idea that...maybe....just maybe there's truth in the story.

To be honest....it is kind of unclear what he is saying in this video. He goes on to talk about production crew additions too. So to help clarify what he means, so that I can figure out what he's saying, I am utilizing a second video he made about the same subject.

Cuz

When Wayne brings up the subject of Production crew - if you had watched his series on TV (their first season) - there was an episode that, went down the path of Black Legion. Wayne did bring up the subject to the production company - but when the writers got a hold of the idea, they really messed things up. Since filming a TV show or movie - nothing is ever filmed in order. Wayne brought up the fact, that once the production company took over the idea - it just went down hill from there. They did put a fake black hand print on a rock - to ignite the entertainment filter, so the episode would be more interesting. What is funny - on one of those episodes, they WERE followed and spotted a person (or so they thought) up on the ravine, watching them. They used a thermal camera and spotted the figure above them. What was weird is that - the figure wasn't HOT like it should have shown on the camera (body heat). The figure was white, which doesn't make sense. That part of the episode was real - its the whole black hand thing that was created by the production company for entertainment.

-SpartanOC

 

[cuzimloony]

Back to Whisky Springs area..... Behind Miner's Needle there was the 3D head. Marcmar put forth his opinion that it is Aztec. It's a valid opinion I think. I haven't seen a better one yet. I personally don't think it looks very Aztec, especially from the side, but I do not have a better idea. I am going to go back and get actual compass measurements, but it appeared to be looking in the "Buzzard's Roost" direction, but again, I have to get coords. Or do I?? Would the people who made it have had compasses?
and what about that pointer rock that I stood next too? Is this kind of thing real or is it just stories? Would that be Spanish? Cowboys? Mother Nature? Honest questions. I can't see in the video what it was looking at, but I think I've got a spot close enough in GE marked. I'll have to go back and check that out too.

If Waltz had a mine, and he was able to get to it in a day or so from Adamsville...then it can't be deep in the Sups.... maybe Marcmar is right about the Miner's Needle area.......

Are any of those things worth spending any time on...........?

 

[SPARTANOC]

Back to Whisky Springs area..... Behind Miner's Needle there was the 3D head. Marcmar put forth his opinion that it is Aztec. It's a valid opinion I think. I haven't seen a better one yet. I personally don't think it looks very Aztec, especially from the side, but I do not have a better idea. I am going to go back and get actual compass measurements, but it appeared to be looking in the "Buzzard's Roost" direction, but again, I have to get coords. Or do I?? Would the people who made it have had compasses?
and what about that pointer rock that I stood next too? Is this kind of thing real or is it just stories? Would that be Spanish? Cowboys? Mother Nature? Honest questions. I can't see in the video what it was looking at, but I think I've got a spot close enough in GE marked. I'll have to go back and check that out too.

If Waltz had a mine, and he was able to get to it in a day or so from Adamsville...then it can't be deep in the Sups.... maybe Marcmar is right about the Miner's Needle area.......

Are any of those things worth spending any time on...........?

I don't think it would hurt to check out the '3D head' and get as much info on it as you can. Never know when that kind of info can be relevant one day....

In my opinion, its not Aztec, but I'm no historian to say either way. Its obviously a 'head' and I would think it has a meaning with the direction its looking at.

The whole pointer rock could have been done by all that you mentioned.

As for Waltz' Mine being in Miner's Needle; nope I don't believe that. That being said - there could very well be "something" there. A different Mine maybe?

-SpartanOC

 

[markmar]

Back to Whisky Springs area..... Behind Miner's Needle there was the 3D head. Marcmar put forth his opinion that it is Aztec. It's a valid opinion I think. I haven't seen a better one yet. I personally don't think it looks very Aztec, especially from the side, but I do not have a better idea. I am going to go back and get actual compass measurements, but it appeared to be looking in the "Buzzard's Roost" direction, but again, I have to get coords. Or do I?? Would the people who made it have had compasses?
and what about that pointer rock that I stood next too? Is this kind of thing real or is it just stories? Would that be Spanish? Cowboys? Mother Nature? Honest questions. I can't see in the video what it was looking at, but I think I've got a spot close enough in GE marked. I'll have to go back and check that out too.

If Waltz had a mine, and he was able to get to it in a day or so from Adamsville...then it can't be deep in the Sups.... maybe Marcmar is right about the Miner's Needle area.......

Are any of those things worth spending any time on...........?

When I was reffering to the Miner's Needle area, I was talking about Wagoner's mine, not Waltz's. These are two different mines. As I stated in the beginning of this thread describing Julia's map, I wrote the LDM is almost in the correct place from WN.

 

[SPARTANOC]

When I was reffering to the Miner's Needle area, I was talking about Wagoner's mine, not Waltz's. These are two different mines. As I stated in the beginning of this thread describing Julia's map, I wrote the LDM is almost in the correct place from WN.

You are correct Markmar, when you say; "the LDM is almost in the correct place from WN.

-SpartanOC

 

[cuzimloony]

When I was reffering to the Miner's Needle area, I was talking about Wagoner's mine, not Waltz's. These are two different mines. As I stated in the beginning of this thread describing Julia's map, I wrote the LDM is almost in the correct place from WN.

I know..... sorry for the confusion everyone. I was just calling attention back to the Whiskey Springs AREA, which includes Waltz's route past Miner's Needle according to some. This thread went waaaaaaay off topic, my fault, and I was just bringing her home
There are more Wagoners videos to make and more trips to be had, so I was just hoping to turn it away from beheadings and back to anywhere along the route from Peralta TH to Trap Springs, which includes the Needle.
Mines were seen.
Caves were seen.
Hearts on pedestals were seen.
Entire 3D heads were seen.
Pointer rocks were seen.
Triangular cairns way off trail were seen.
Tarantulas were seen
...much more that I haven't seen yet, was seen
..........................
Carry on

 

[cuzimloony]

I am happy to report, I made a smooth-brain, mid-whit rookie mistake the other day and went to the wrong graveyard
Adamsville graveyard is still there, albeit in very bad shape.

 

[Cubfan64]

1964?

Cubfan, we’re you intending to write 1964?

Oops - meant 1984

 

[Cubfan64]

Yes - thank you Jim, it was Black Legion', is what was meant.

There really isn't much on the topic - but Joe Ribaudo on a different forum DID explain their existence and apparently had seen 2 of them.

-SpartanOC

Yes Joe passed away in 2020 - complications from chemical exposure to agent orange in Vietnam is what took him, or at least was involved. He was gruff, rude and condescending at times, but he knew his stuff and what he didn't know he admitted he didn't know it. I know there are some folks who couldn't care less that he's passed on, but he was responsible for starting the Dutchhunter Reunions and despite his sometimes overbearing personality, I think everyone who knew him in the community would agree that he caused everyone at one time or another to dig back into something they had forgotten about or discover something new while trying to find a way to counter whatever it was he was arguing.

As far as Joe's story about the Black Legion, this is it....

 

[cuzimloony]

Yes Joe passed away in 2020 - complications from chemical exposure to agent orange in Vietnam is what took him, or at least was involved. He was gruff, rude and condescending at times, but he knew his stuff and what he didn't know he admitted he didn't know it. I know there are some folks who couldn't care less that he's passed on, but he was responsible for starting the Dutchhunter Reunions and despite his sometimes overbearing personality, I think everyone who knew him in the community would agree that he caused everyone at one time or another to dig back into something they had forgotten about or discover something new while trying to find a way to counter whatever it was he was arguing.

As far as Joe's story about the Black Legion, this is it....

View attachment 2184601

I see cubfan, thank you for the story. I hadn't heard it before.
Interesting.
It's a bit different than I expected, in a better way, Id say.
Guys in pickup trucks is easier to wrap my brain around than Apache spirits. Im actually a bit relieved about that.
Have they ever done more than threaten and stare? Oooooh wait a minute..... Is the idea that THESE are the guys responsible for the strange deaths reported by Matthew Roberts....(not so relieved anymore......)
Hopefully it wasnt the name Joe that set them off..... (nervous giggle...)
Joe did keep going in the mountains after this right?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I see cubfan, thank you for the story. I hadn't heard it before.
Interesting.
It's a bit different than I expected, in a better way, Id say.
Guys in pickup trucks is easier to wrap my brain around than Apache spirits. Im actually a bit relieved about that.
Have they ever done more than threaten and stare? Oooooh wait a minute..... Is the idea that THESE are the guys responsible for the strange deaths reported by Matthew Roberts....(not so relieved anymore......)
Hopefully it wasnt the name Joe that set them off..... (nervous giggle...)
Joe did keep going in the mountains after this right?

Cubfan may remember Joe Ribaudo also told of Ed Piper having to leave the Superstitions each year because the black legion (apache) were in the mountains and moving gold around and other tasks. Piper allegedly feared for his life at this time.
The so called Black legion has been around for ages but hardly anything like what the white community has made them out to be. On the reservations they are more at odds with themselves than prospectors in the Superstitions.
The Dilhil gaan as they are known at San Carlos and the Lizhii gaan as known at Mescalero are traditional Apache at odds with the government and government Apache.
Traditionals follow the old ways and still practice the old ceremonies many of which have been outlawed. A good example was in the mid 90's when Wendsler Nosie went up on Mount Graham to gather sacred plants and herbs and water and the government arrested and jailed him for trespassing and destruction of property.
The radical activists at the Oak Flat copper mine are members of the Dilhil gaan.
In the late 90's Marg Farras the gr-granddaughter of Cochise was violently driven off San Carlos, shot at and her house burned because she fought and exposed the corruption of Apache and government officials at San Carlos. She was long time Dilhil gaan.
The Dilhil gaan do go back into the Superstition, Pinal, Dripping Springs, Mazatzal and other ranges for ceremonies just as Wendsler Nosie did on Mt. Graham. Exactly what all they do in those mountains is for the most part known only to them.

 

[cuzimloony]

Cubfan may remember Joe Ribaudo also told of Ed Piper having to leave the Superstitions each year because the black legion (apache) were in the mountains and moving gold around and other tasks. Piper allegedly feared for his life at this time.
The so called Black legion has been around for ages but hardly anything like what the white community has made them out to be. On the reservations they are more at odds with themselves than prospectors in the Superstitions.
The Dilhil gaan as they are known at San Carlos and the Lizhii gaan as known at Mescalero are traditional Apache at odds with the government and government Apache.
Traditionals follow the old ways and still practice the old ceremonies many of which have been outlawed. A good example was in the mid 90's when Wendsler Nosie went up on Mount Graham to gather sacred plants and herbs and water and the government arrested and jailed him for trespassing and destruction of property.
The radical activists at the Oak Flat copper mine are members of the Dilhil gaan.
In the late 90's Marg Farras the gr-granddaughter of Cochise was violently driven off San Carlos, shot at and her house burned because she fought and exposed the corruption of Apache and government officials at San Carlos. She was long time Dilhil gaan.
The Dilhil gaan do go back into the Superstition, Pinal, Dripping Springs, Mazatzal and other ranges for ceremonies just as Wendsler Nosie did on Mt. Graham. Exactly what all they do in those mountains is for the most part known only to them.

I'm at a loss. What do you say when a Superstition legend pops into your thread?
I am humbled.
Thank you.
Your info above was new to me, and I'm taking it seriously.

"The so called Black legion has been around for ages but hardly anything like what the white community has made them out to be." This may have been my issue in taking this too seriously initially. It felt like a Hollywood story, like another legend added on to the already giant pile of legends here, all of which can't be true, can they? The way you wrote it all out above however, feels very real.

"The Dilhil gaan do go back into the Superstition, Pinal, Dripping Springs, Mazatzal and other ranges for ceremonies just as Wendsler Nosie did on Mt. Graham." ....boy would I like to be a horse-fly on the rock there at one of those ceremonies...

There is a lot of food for thought for me in your post. I very much appreciate you dropping in to enlighten us as I was absolutely in the dark about this (other than the handprint and staring stories).

Do you know, or...are you willing to tell if you do know, are there certain times of year that they'd be more likely to be in there doing their ceremonies or whatever it is that they do? Are there parts of the range that they frequent more than others? How many of them are there usually in a group?
You know.....basic survival questions.....

Again, thank you, sincerely.

 

[cuzimloony]

Edit:
(there was another video here, but youtube doesn't allow external links to it)

Fine Art | Native American Paintings | Native American Artwork | San Carlos Apache Reservation | Wilson Dewey | Original Painting of an Apache Gaan Crown-Devil Dancer - Adobe Gallery, Santa Fe

The Apache Crown or Devil Dancers are more appropriately named the Gaan and they can appear at a girl’s puberty ceremony and at curing ceremonies. The style of the headpieces of the Gaan is an indication of the ceremony in which they are appearing. The Gaan personify the four Mountain Spirits...

www.adobegallery.com

Black masks over the faces....... Related?

 

[SPARTANOC]

I'm at a loss. What do you say when a Superstition legend pops into your thread?
I am humbled.
Thank you.
Your info above was new to me, and I'm taking it seriously.

"The so called Black legion has been around for ages but hardly anything like what the white community has made them out to be." This may have been my issue in taking this too seriously initially. It felt like a Hollywood story, like another legend added on to the already giant pile of legends here, all of which can't be true, can they? The way you wrote it all out above however, feels very real.

"The Dilhil gaan do go back into the Superstition, Pinal, Dripping Springs, Mazatzal and other ranges for ceremonies just as Wendsler Nosie did on Mt. Graham." ....boy would I like to be a horse-fly on the rock there at one of those ceremonies...

There is a lot of food for thought for me in your post. I very much appreciate you dropping in to enlighten us as I was absolutely in the dark about this (other than the handprint and staring stories).

Do you know, or...are you willing to tell if you do know, are there certain times of year that they'd be more likely to be in there doing their ceremonies or whatever it is that they do? Are there parts of the range that they frequent more than others? How many of them are there usually in a group?
You know.....basic survival questions.....

Again, thank you, sincerely.

Cuz

If I'm not mistaken, the time they go out is during our Easter time - conducting some type of ceremonies back in there, near Weaver's Needle - North of (I believe?). Supposedly a Holy place for the Natives of the surrounding area.

-SpartanOC

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Edit:
(there was another video here, but youtube doesn't allow external links to it)

Fine Art | Native American Paintings | Native American Artwork | San Carlos Apache Reservation | Wilson Dewey | Original Painting of an Apache Gaan Crown-Devil Dancer - Adobe Gallery, Santa Fe

The Apache Crown or Devil Dancers are more appropriately named the Gaan and they can appear at a girl’s puberty ceremony and at curing ceremonies. The style of the headpieces of the Gaan is an indication of the ceremony in which they are appearing. The Gaan personify the four Mountain Spirits...

www.adobegallery.com

Black masks over the faces....... Related?

The Apache word gaan is a reference to all things spiritual. The crown dance represents the four mountain spirits and the four cardinal directions. Four is the sacred number of the Apache and you will find the number four in almost all Apache ceremonies.
There is no all encompassing time for ceremonies like Christmas or Thanksgiving or Memorial Day, for the most part ceremonies are an individual thing or sacred to a certain family, not taken part by the whole Apache nation.
There could be ceremonies within the mountains at any time of year. Most ceremonies are four days long and might be held for any life event or to honor something in the spirit world that is important to the individual or family.
Times of the full moon are most likely to be used for ceremony as that is a tradition carried on from early times by the Apache.

 

[cuzimloony]

The Apache word gaan is a reference to all things spiritual. The crown dance represents the four mountain spirits and the four cardinal directions. Four is the sacred number of the Apache and you will find the number four in almost all Apache ceremonies.
There is no all encompassing time for ceremonies like Christmas or Thanksgiving or Memorial Day, for the most part ceremonies are an individual thing or sacred to a certain family, not taken part by the whole Apache nation.
There could be ceremonies within the mountains at any time of year. Most ceremonies are four days long and might be held for any life event or to honor something in the spirit world that is important to the individual or family.
Times of the full moon are most likely to be used for ceremony as that is a tradition carried on from early times by the Apache.

Thank you.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

You know.....basic survival questions.....

Basic survival...nothing to fear IMO. But remember at all times while in the mountains anywhere around there that you're in a living church. Don't do anything you'd find repulsive if some non-believer did it in your local church or graveyard. Be a good neighbor, if you see a shrine or offering, stay away from it. Don't go look at it, don't take a pic of it, just go away. If you find anything historical related to Indians, like old pottery that's been smashed, etc., don't touch it. Walk around it. These are all things I try to do. There have been times I've stumbled on something and backed out as quick as I could.

I don't fear any of these things or the people who may have put them there. But I do want to be a good neighbor and don't want to cause anyone any distress. And there are places I simply will not go for any reason. Such as the location of the Battle of the Salt River Cave...AKA Skeleton or Skull Cave. There are so many bones around there, still in the cave and lots being washed down the hillside. To me, it's like someone coming around and poking holes into the hull of the USS Arizona and stepping on all the bones of my fellow Sailors. The cave/ledge is a graveyard and place of sadness, where some brave people refused to be pushed any farther.

I can see where some traditional Apache (who maybe used to be called the Black Legion) may have taken offense at people dynamiting and digging out in the Supes. I don't blame them for getting mad. The mountains are a living spirit to them. It's a very real thing for them.

I also hope that Nosie and the Stronghold are successful in stopping the copper mine. It's at the Supreme Court now. That land swap deal for Oak Flat was dirty, dirty, dirty. I really hope they win.

 

[cuzimloony]

Basic survival...nothing to fear IMO. But remember at all times while in the mountains anywhere around there that you're in a living church. Don't do anything you'd find repulsive if some non-believer did it in your local church or graveyard. Be a good neighbor, if you see a shrine or offering, stay away from it. Don't go look at it, don't take a pic of it, just go away. If you find anything historical related to Indians, like old pottery that's been smashed, etc., don't touch it. Walk around it. These are all things I try to do. There have been times I've stumbled on something and backed out as quick as I could.

I don't fear any of these things or the people who may have put them there. But I do want to be a good neighbor and don't want to cause anyone any distress. And there are places I simply will not go for any reason. Such as the location of the Battle of the Salt River Cave...AKA Skeleton or Skull Cave. There are so many bones around there, still in the cave and lots being washed down the hillside. To me, it's like someone coming around and poking holes into the hull of the USS Arizona and stepping on all the bones of my fellow Sailors. The cave/ledge is a graveyard and place of sadness, where some brave people refused to be pushed any farther.

I can see where some traditional Apache (who maybe used to be called the Black Legion) may have taken offense at people dynamiting and digging out in the Supes. I don't blame them for getting mad. The mountains are a living spirit to them. It's a very real thing for them.

I also hope that Nosie and the Stronghold are successful in stopping the copper mine. It's at the Supreme Court now. That land swap deal for Oak Flat was dirty, dirty, dirty. I really hope they win.

Very sound advice here..... thank you shipmate
Nosie...Stronghold....Oak Flat.... Sighs..... I really do have a lot to learn and there is not enough time in the day......

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Very sound advice here..... thank you shipmate
Nosie...Stronghold....Oak Flat.... Sighs..... I really do have a lot to learn and there is not enough time in the day......

The Oak Flat thing really sucks. It's been awhile since it was discussed here, but IIRC, they were going to fill up Hewitt, Millsite, somewhere in that general area, with all the spoils they dig out of the ground at Oak Flat. I think Resolution Copper has the area they're going to fill in, under mineral claim or something. Maybe someone else here knows the actual details of what canyons are going to get filled in and can comment.