Wagoner's Lost Ledge

[SPARTANOC]

Speaking of Hewitt..........and Millsite.....
Get a 1900 USGS map of the area and find the horse.
May give some "fun spots" to investigate, if you're into seeing faces in maps View attachment 2179729View attachment 2179728

Okay - that's just too cool! Of course, I'm easily amused....

 

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[cuzimloony]

Okay - that's just too cool! Of course, I'm easily amused....

Notice that the horses "eyes" are Millsite Canyon and Buzzard's Roost (not labled on the map), using roads, rivers and contours to form the shapes. Buzzard's Roost is the name of a Jesse James hideout in Oklahoma, making an appearance here in the Sups.
Well, if your "brain's eye" is creative enough, you can see a 5-pointed star on Buzzards Roost if you go there.
It's not a small star you have to be close to see. You can see it from miles out with binos.
The other eye is Millsite Canyon........

Im not going to point it out. I'm hoping you can see it w/o help. When I show this to local dutch-hunters, they see nothing. Well, they say they see nothing.........
I do, but maybe it's bias and an over-active imagination. Does anyone else see it?

 

[SPARTANOC]

Notice that the horses "eyes" are Millsite Canyon and Buzzard's Roost (not labled on the map), using roads, rivers and contours to form the shapes. Buzzard's Roost is the name of a Jesse James hideout in Oklahoma, making an appearance here in the Sups.
Well, if your "brain's eye" is creative enough, you can see a 5-pointed star on Buzzards Roost if you go there.
It's not a small star you have to be close to see. You can see it from miles out with binos.
The other eye is Millsite Canyon........ View attachment 2179736
Im not going to point it out. I'm hoping you can see it w/o help. When I show this to local dutch-hunters, they see nothing. Well, they say they see nothing.........
I do, but maybe it's bias and an over-active imagination. Does anyone else see it?

I believe I can see it - I'm taking in consideration, that your reference to the STAR is for the Waltz story?

 

[cuzimloony]

I believe I can see it - I'm taking in consideration, that your reference to the STAR is for the Waltz story?

Well, yes and no. Maybe
My current running theory(?) idea(?) is that the Wagoner and the Dutchman, (and other stories written by other authors) are "planted" stories. You know...."Russian prostitutes and pee tapes," to distract you from what's really going on. A large group hiding LARGE money, so large they have a team of deceptive things going on.
But..... incase that theory is wrong, Im hiking and looking into all that I can, because Ive been wrong many, many times before.
I didnt think the Wagoner could do it. Now, I know he couldn't, as described by Barry Storm. So, I dont need to spend time on that part of the story. It is clearly either a fanciful story, an overactive imaginative author who only slightly changes things for personal interests, or purposeful deception as part of a larger initiative. I think the latter.
So, if Barry Storm were working somehow deceptively for "corporate" interests (and I am pulling that out of my wahzoo as I have zero evidence for that. It is a hunch I need to flesh out...), then this story relates to Buzzards Roost because its all part of the same show.
BUT, I may be alone here so, with respect to OP, because I dont want to derail this thread with my pet theories anymore, (Im starting to feel guilty), Ill do my best to refrain from bringing it up here and stick to the classic Wagoners themes. That said, Im including one last pic of Buzzards Roost from a book published in 2003. I think some erosion may have happened between then and now, so, it may be clearer in this pic.

I AM comfortable saying, however, I think Barry Storm may have had reasons for pulling the location from Millsite Canyon and putting it in the LaBarge area.....and as such am comfortable discussing Millsite in the context of Wagoners.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Well, yes and no. Maybe
My current running theory(?) idea(?) is that the Wagoner and the Dutchman, (and other stories written by other authors) are "planted" stories. You know...."Russian prostitutes and pee tapes," to distract you from what's really going on. A large group hiding LARGE money, so large they have a team of deceptive things going on.
But..... incase that theory is wrong, Im hiking and looking into all that I can, because Ive been wrong many, many times before.
I didnt think the Wagoner could do it. Now, I know he couldn't, as described by Barry Storm. So, I dont need to spend time on that part of the story. It is clearly either a fanciful story, an overactive imaginative author who only slightly changes things for personal interests, or purposeful deception as part of a larger initiative. I think the latter.
So, if Barry Storm were working somehow deceptively for "corporate" interests (and I am pulling that out of my wahzoo as I have zero evidence for that. It is a hunch I need to flesh out...), then this story relates to Buzzards Roost because its all part of the same show.
BUT, I may be alone here so, with respect to OP, because I dont want to derail this thread with my pet theories anymore, (Im starting to feel guilty), Ill do my best to refrain from bringing it up here and stick to the classic Wagoners themes.
I AM comfortable saying, however, I think Barry Storm may have had reasons for pulling the location from Millsite Canyon and putting it in the LaBarge area.....and as such am comfortable discussing Millsite in the context of Wagoners.

Cuzimloony

As the topic of Wagoner's story is this thread's subject - being the sole focus here, I would agree to narrow things towards just the Wagoner's ideas, clues, thoughts, etc. We don't want to "pollute" this thread and we should always respect the OP.

If you want to elaborate on the Waltz legend, your ideas and possible finds - I say create a new thread, so as to continue the thoughts and ideas of who, what, where, why and how on the subject.

I'm game for any discussions on the matter.....

My two focuses personally have been Senner's gold AND the LDM (or any Peralta mine for that matter).

-SpartanOC

 

[cuzimloony]

Cuzimloony

As the topic of Wagoner's story is this thread's subject - being the sole focus here, I would agree to narrow things towards just the Wagoner's ideas, clues, thoughts, etc. We don't want to "pollute" this thread and we should always respect the OP.

If you want to elaborate on the Waltz legend, your ideas and possible finds - I say create a new thread, so as to continue the thoughts and ideas of who, what, where, why and how on the subject.

I'm game for any discussions on the matter.....

My two focuses personally have been Senner's gold AND the LDM (or any Peralta mine for that matter).

-SpartanOC

Sure and agreed. Im long winded and high energy My thoughts. The Wagoner story is fake, as told by Barry Storm, who, in my opinion is writing deceptively for "reasons."
Which..........leads me to ask, what about the Tom Kollenborn story? Same place right? A team of men would totally be up to this.
It seems to me though, Tom MAY have had a habit of writing about stories only after he found the loot OR possibly altering enough of the story to protect his interests.......... See what sgt says (Toms best friend I believe) in the Senners Gold thread. That is not a slight against Tom and his life's work. I have nothing but the upmost respect for him.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Sure and agreed. Im long winded and high energy My thoughts. The Wagoner story is fake, as told by Barry Storm, who, in my opinion is writing deceptively for "reasons."
Which..........leads me to ask, what about the Tom Kollenborn story? Same place right? A team of men would totally be up to this.
It seems to me though, Tom MAY have had a habit of writing about stories only after he found the loot OR possibly altering enough of the story to protect his interests.......... See what sgt says (Toms best friend I believe) in the Senners Gold thread. That is not a slight against Tom and his life's work. I have nothing but the upmost respect for him.

Absolutely agree. Tom's work is amazing and as I'm concerned, it's legendary work. As that statement settles, I have the perspective that Tom wouldn't reveal anything of importance, unless he already went there OR he's still looking in an area of interest. Like you said regarding the Senner story - as it appears Tom knew more, but for personal reasons left out some of the most important details. And I believe the biggest detail left out, is there's more of Senner's Gold out there to be found.

Let me know if or when you create a new thread on the LDM story and I'll jump on to discuss things....

As for the High Energy comment - I too am exploding with energetic curiosity myself

-SpartanOC

 

[cuzimloony]

Another video editing pic. If you guys like seeing shapes and designs in rocks/boulders, Spanish markings or pointer stone alignments, whatever, I think you'll like this trek. Ive never really edited a video like this before so, it's kind of tee-dee-us, as they say. In the first vid, you're really only going to get the walk from (almost) Trap Canyon to just past Whiskey Spring at just under an hour with HEAVY editing (most of which I just speed things up a bit and add music so you can still see the whole trail...fart noises over curse words, ya know, im still young at heart)...
Anyhow, back to editing.

 

[cuzimloony]

Back to Barry Storm. My initial question was "Was he a member of any political/fraternal orgs OR did he work at a newspaper."
Im starting to look into him and......he DID work at various newspapers and his first book was published by, a politician, Barry Goldwater, a man who spent a LOT of time pointing and saying "look over here" at the main Superstition mountain area, just like Storm did.
Also, Storm said in a letter to the Desert Magazine in 1945: "

Storm wrote the following in a letter to the editor of Desert Magazine in 1945 after the publication of one of his articles:

“Apr 1945 Dear Randall: Many people are writing about Wagoner's Lost Ledge, etc. To save a lot of pointless conversation in which I am now having to engage, might I state in an open letter that I am not now conducting treasure hunting expeditions, that I usually prefer to work alone, have no maps for sale, and that gold in the natural way of things does not come sticking out of the rocks in large yellow gobs, that the claim I recently recorded is not on the Lost Dutchman but on some nickel-chromite-titanium ore, and that gold ore usually runs over $200 per ton before gold is even visible in it. In short, those persons who are seriously going in for treasure hunting hereabouts had better first acquire some knowledge of geology and of mineralogical chemical reactions if they would stand a chance of success.

So it seems......not even Storm believed in the Ledge....... "gold in the natural way of things does not come sticking out of the rocks in large yellow gobs..."
Hand cobbed ore by the side of the road
Hand cobbed ore by the side of the road
Hand cobbed ore by the side of the road.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Exactly right.

Gold ore with visible values is pretty rich in OPT. This is pretty rare.

The way these legends read, there were ledges of gold with not only visible, but with pretty large grains, on the surface at various locations in the Superstition Mountains.

Not very likely.

A few mines in the area, though, reportedly had some pockets of very rich gold ore that were encountered beneath the surface.

Wagoner's hand cobbed ore, shot through with visible gold, IMO is most likely from a mine, and not pried out of a surface deposit.

If one was selling rich gold ore that they knew to be high-graded or recovered from some cache somewhere, the most likely story would be "Oh, I found this outcrop of gold out in the desert and pried all these chunks off."

 

[SPARTANOC]

Exactly right.

Gold ore with visible values is pretty rich in OPT. This is pretty rare.

The way these legends read, there were ledges of gold with not only visible, but with pretty large grains, on the surface at various locations in the Superstition Mountains.

Not very likely.

A few mines in the area, though, reportedly had some pockets of very rich gold ore that were encountered beneath the surface.

Wagoner's hand cobbed ore, shot through with visible gold, IMO is most likely from a mine, and not pried out of a surface deposit.

If one was selling rich gold ore that they knew to be high-graded or recovered from some cache somewhere, the most likely story would be "Oh, I found this outcrop of gold out in the desert and pried all these chunks off."

You nailed it! I would probably say the same thing - "I found it just lying around..."

 

[cuzimloony]

Exactly right.

Gold ore with visible values is pretty rich in OPT. This is pretty rare.

The way these legends read, there were ledges of gold with not only visible, but with pretty large grains, on the surface at various locations in the Superstition Mountains.

Not very likely.

A few mines in the area, though, reportedly had some pockets of very rich gold ore that were encountered beneath the surface.

Wagoner's hand cobbed ore, shot through with visible gold, IMO is most likely from a mine, and not pried out of a surface deposit.

If one was selling rich gold ore that they knew to be high-graded or recovered from some cache somewhere, the most likely story would be "Oh, I found this outcrop of gold out in the desert and pried all these chunks off."

Good points. Very good points.
Speaking of mines, I think, if my conspiracy minded brain is right, that some of those may still be being illegally worked due to the walkie talkie signal I got. I know I know....that signal could have come from anywhere, BUT I was in an area where I could SEE multiple mines/caves (and walkie talkie signals are notoriously short lived) so..... Im leaning toward the idea that someone was IN a mine in the area and their signal got out just when I happened to be scanning. I have this moment recorded on my gopro and may eventually post it.
Maybe I should make a plan to go back and investigate those mines/caves.
I need to look out for mountain lions though. They live/bed in those places......
Ill probably hit up Millsite before Whiskey Springs again though........ I want to dust off (or get dust on) my Gold Monster.......

 

[SPARTANOC]

Good points. Very good points.
Speaking of mines, I think, if my conspiracy minded brain is right, that some of those may still be being illegally worked due to the walkie talkie signal I got. I know I know....that signal could have come from anywhere, BUT I was in an area where I could SEE multiple mines/caves (and walkie talkie signals are notoriously short lived) so..... Im leaning toward the idea that someone was IN a mine in the area and their signal got out just when I happened to be scanning. I have this moment recorded on my gopro and may eventually post it.
Maybe I should make a plan to go back and investigate those mines/caves.
I need to look out for mountain lions though. They live/bed in those places......
Ill probably hit up Millsite before Whiskey Springs again though........ I want to dust off (or get dust on) my Gold Monster.......

If you go back in - in the near future, and if there's time - check out Music Canyon. There's been gold found in that Canyon area from what I've gathered and that area isn't too far from Whiskey Springs, per say. Its a distance but could do it in a couple of hours. Just a thought, since you're out in that area doing research. I can't get out there myself as of now - but plan on getting in there maybe next year. I have an area of interest that needs attention first, then I want to get into Whiskey Springs AND Music Canyon. What's interesting is, Walter Gassler's body was found near Music Canyon (north East of), so I believe its an area of some interest. Both Gassler's and Ruth's bodies were found North Northeast of Music Canyon is my memory serves me well.

-SpartanOC

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Walt Gassler was found on the trail leading from Charlebois Spring up to Peter's Mesa...to the NW of Music. Ruth was found on the east side of Black Top Mesa. Or, if you believe "The Gassler Manuscript", Ruth was found up on Peter's Mesa...and his body was moved over to Black Top Mesa, where it was found again...

CIL, if it were me, I'd steer clear of anyone suspected of doing any mining in that area. Lots of people still dig holes out there, and not all of them are right in the head. Or maybe I should say that not many of them are right in the head.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Walt Gassler was found on the trail leading from Charlebois Spring up to Peter's Mesa...to the NW of Music. Ruth was found on the east side of Black Top Mesa. Or, if you believe "The Gassler Manuscript", Ruth was found up on Peter's Mesa...and his body was moved over to Black Top Mesa, where it was found again...

CIL, if it were me, I'd steer clear of anyone suspected of doing any mining in that area. Lots of people still dig holes out there, and not all of them are right in the head. Or maybe I should say that not many of them are right in the head.

View attachment 2179886

View attachment 2179887

Appreciate the heads up, Potbelly. Good to know, what still lurks out there....

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Attached is another version of the legend that I don't recall ever being mentioned on TNET...the small variations in the story are interesting to compare to the other versions.

 

[cuzimloony]

3 little cacti, all in a row.......

 

[cuzimloony]

One point: I did NOT make it all the way to Trap Spring, so there is some room for doubt in what Im going to say, but....from the point I DID get to (the purple track here:

At no point can you see Miners Needle (it isnt that tall to be seen from the valley floor), or Weavers Needle.

I couldn't see Weavers Needle until I was almost AT Miners Needle, leaving the Whisky Spring valley headed south.
If the Wagoner were north of Trap Spring, maybe you could see both, Im not sure, but then that would render the Kollenborn and Storm maps as worthless......
....but this is all neither here nor there right?
Hand cobbed ore by the side of the road............

 

[cuzimloony]

How old was the Wagoner?

 

[SPARTANOC]

Attached is another version of the legend that I don't recall ever being mentioned on TNET...the small variations in the story are interesting to compare to the other versions.
View attachment 2179973

View attachment 2179974


View attachment 2179975


View attachment 2179976

Jim

Excellent read I do have to say. Fascinating on some of the details. I've known the story for some time now, but I did gleam from some of the details concerning locations of Wagoner's camp site AND said location for the outcrop. In reading this version - I believe Wagoner's spot changes compared to those who think Whiskey Springs is possible area of interest. If you read this version - there's an interesting "change" in details when referring to the Canyon (La Barge) that's been known. If I follow THIS version - it puts one somewhere else, an area further Northwest than Whiskey Springs, placing one in a more Northern part of Marsh Valley.

In my quick assessment (and before my 7 cups of coffee for the morning ), while following the story and viewing a full map of the Superstition Mountains, I end up in LOWER LA BARGE BOX CANYON area, not in La Barge Canyon as mentioned here at first and in other versions. If you use the whole 3 mile measurement mentioned here in the story, but keep Miner's Needle South - you find yourself in Lower Box Canyon area. At first the article mentions to keep Weaver's Needle West of Wagoner's outcrop location - but later doesn't mention West and just states that Weaver's Needle should be maintained as a 3 mile distance. So, if you use what's written here in the later part of the story, you end up North of Miner's Needle and while maintaining Weaver's needle position in a Southern point and keeping the 3 mile distance - for the most part, you end up in Lower La Barge Box Canon. Or so it seems. What's really interesting is - the results I get while following the path - ends in an area that has had, a huge amount of diggings - and I believe those diggings were not just for the Wagoner's story. It looks as if other stories are colliding with each other as the end points to several stories gets you in the same general location.

This does beg the question and it has been asked before I believe; over the years - have all these different stories been so contorted that, they've crossed over each other - confusing the paths taken for each said pat and location?

-SpartanOC