Wagoner's Lost Ledge

[cuzimloony]

If you happen to go up in the box, check out Bradford's old place and "Brad's Water". Looks like you were also right at "Herman's Cave."

OBTW:

View attachment 2179333

I've had good luck going HF in canyons and mountains. I have a little Xiegu X6100 that has an internal battery and integrated key (a button, but better than nothing).
At least someone would hear you...they might be in NM but you could get an SOS out with your geocoords.

Nice rig! You actually trek that into the mountains? You get a trophy and a hand clap from me. How do you like the Xiegu? I've been looking at the Icom QRP rig with the internal battery. I just don't like the price tag... I wonder, when you pack it in, do you store your hf rig next to your water baldder? lol. Here's my hf rig below.... A Yaesu FT-991a (without a key because Im a Morse dummy). I've always been a bit jealous of you key guys.....every tme I start to learn, I get sidetracked. Now, I apologize for all these pics with my face in it. I know it's not a treasure hunter thing to do, but it's just circumstance. The only pic I have of Woody, Im in it. And now, the only pic I have of my rig handy, is the pic I used for my QSL Cards so.... It is what it is. W1SAE here. I don't care if people know my callsign. It's tied to a POBox anyway . Anyone can feel free to look for me at the post office in Florence.
I did consider going to Herman's cave, but the day before I went in, I watched a video of a guy who hiked it and it took the allure out of it for me. It's not a treasure cave. There's not a story behind it as far as I know. It's just a cave named after Herman, who never went to that cave ( I think). More importantly.....daylight. I started at 8am and wanted to start at 6am. I lost 2 hours because of tooling around and a leaky water bladder that needed to be replaced with another I had on hand. Brad's Place, on the other hand, is something I'd love to see. I also want to get out there now with my radios and listen....... someone else was out there. I heard them briefly on GMRS channel 1, which means they were probably using little 2 watt radios. I wasn't alone out there even though it felt like it.

 

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[cuzimloony]

The next thing about Jessie’s story that stands out is he seems to disagree with where Wagoner went, as told by Storm. His quote about the likelihood of Wagoner doing such a trip: “When I was 15 years old and healthy as the next, I couldn't have walked that far, dug out two suitcases of ore, and walked back in a week, much less three days just traveling at night. "

I think it’s obvious at this point that one should not put too much faith in Storm’s map and directions. Storm seems to have massaged the story to fit his favorite locations, not the first time he’d done something like that. Jessie claimed to have seen some of the gold from Wagoner’s Lost Ledge, presumably shown to him by Hebe MacDonald. Jessie also goes on to say that Hebe looked for the ledge, couldn’t find it, then eventually traced Wagoner to Tucson, only to find out that Wagoner had died.

Whether or not one believes the legend, perhaps Wagoner found a cache of hand-cobbed ore that was too big to get out of the desert in one or two trips. This could explain how he could get suitcases of ore out in 3 days. After all, there was not a lot said of Wagoner having much in the way of mining tools. If he had no tools, it had to have been mined previously.

Strangely enough, there is good evidence that other people have found caches of hand-cobbed ore in that area...but not the area described by Storm...If I were looking for this treasure, I’d be looking around the Millsite Canyon area.

When I first learned of this story, I was with Frank Augustine in Millsite Canyon. He gave me the Wagoner version, while looking over some areas Tom Kollenborn had told him about, which may or may not have been related to the story. So..... I believe that you are not the only person to associate Millsite with the Wagoner. Millsite is at least drivable and the road is walkable. I could believe that an old man could walk it, but not with a suitcase of rocks.....

 

[Crow]

Gold is heavy amigo. Even if it was of rock samples. Combine. with heat. terrain and age.

It does not add up.

Crow

 

[cuzimloony]

Gold is heavy amigo. Even if it was of rock samples. Combine. with heat. terrain and age.

It does not add up.

Crow

Absolutely, 100% agreed.
Im still going to process these videos from Whiskey Spring so we can all see, if we haven't been in the area already, how rediculous it is for either a sick man or an 81 year old to get here on foot.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Those are nice pics you posted CIL, definitely want to see the videos...and there's no harm in walking around trying to make sense out of the stories. We've all done it, and it's fun. Truth is, no one knows what parts, if any, of these old treasure stories are true. There might be some truth to the Wagoner story, just not too far from any road

That Icom 7300 is my base rig. I use the Ziegu X6100 out in the field. It's a decent radio for the price. About half the price of the equivalent Icom or Yaesu.

The X6100 wasn't so great when it first came out, but they've worked all the bugs out. If you want one, don't buy one of the older ones unless you know it works well. But the new production models are almost as good as the Japanese QRP rigs.

It's about the size of a red brick. I use it with a takedown, loaded coil vertical. The HF-008 from Radioddity. Antenna is easy to pack and does 6-80m. I use it with 4 wire radials about 3m long, just clipped to the base with alligator clips. I use it mostly on 20m and can usually make QSOs nationwide on 4W. If you want 10W, needs an external battery.

Have fun out there, Jim

PS: Pic of my shack...I'm on QRZ:

 

[cuzimloony]

A screen grab that probably won't make the video, but I think some here may apppeciate.
Miner's Needle (left) and Weaver's Needle (right), in the same shot.

 

[cuzimloony]

Here is another visual for those who haven't been here. The blue arrow way off in the distance is the Peralta Trailhead, behind those small hills and at the base of those cliffs. From that point to where I'm standing in this pic is the route supposedly taken by Jacob Waltz, an 81 year old man, as told by, supposedly, the Mexican girl who had been with the 2 Mexicans that Waltz/Weiser killed. Of course, the route continues on behind me for another couple miles, but this is a nice enough shot that you can get a better feel for these distances than you can on GE.
Can an 81 year old walk this far? This is about the 1/2 point to Hermans Cave, so, if the mine is in that area, he had to walk this trail you see, then a mile's worth of UPHILL SLOG, behind Miners Needle, then DIG and WORK at the end of it...........then haul out the ore. This would have been the same route (in reverse) the Wagoneer took if he left Whiskey Springs via Miners Needle. Food for thought.

 

[cuzimloony]

Those are nice pics you posted CIL, definitely want to see the videos...and there's no harm in walking around trying to make sense out of the stories. We've all done it, and it's fun. Truth is, no one knows what parts, if any, of these old treasure stories are true. There might be some truth to the Wagoner story, just not too far from any road

That Icom 7300 is my base rig. I use the Ziegu X6100 out in the field. It's a decent radio for the price. About half the price of the equivalent Icom or Yaesu.

The X6100 wasn't so great when it first came out, but they've worked all the bugs out. If you want one, don't buy one of the older ones unless you know it works well. But the new production models are almost as good as the Japanese QRP rigs.

It's about the size of a red brick. I use it with a takedown, loaded coil vertical. The HF-008 from Radioddity. Antenna is easy to pack and does 6-80m. I use it with 4 wire radials about 3m long, just clipped to the base with alligator clips. I use it mostly on 20m and can usually make QSOs nationwide on 4W. If you want 10W, needs an external battery.

Have fun out there, Jim

PS: Pic of my shack...I'm on QRZ:

View attachment 2179499

I am on QRZ as well, but I didn't catch your call. You well know, Im sure, that if you dont have a POBox tied to it, you shouldn't put it on here...... So, if you do want to give it out, make it a private message. I'll send you a "eyeball/internet QSO," QSL Card. I am a card collector......got em from all over the world, both voice and FT8.
You have a very nice looking shack and is that one of thise engraved FCCLicenses Very cool........
So far..... I only use resonant dipoles. That way I dont have to worry about SWR too much, if at all. The result is, Im only on 10, 15 & 20 meters (plus an Ed Fong tri-band VHF/UHF on the roof), due to space limitations and my backyard looks like a criss-crossed antenna farm.

 

[cuzimloony]

Probably the speed at which he was traveling if he was tired and hungry. Slightly faster for a person functioning at 100% and if the terrain was open and relatively level.

And it is surely not.........video coming.

 

[cuzimloony]

A couple of observations, based on many years of research on this particular story…

The story as it’s commonly known can be traced largely to Barry Storm. Storm was not from AZ, and was accused of lifting story material from locals, or publishing stories that were claimed to have been told to him in confidence.

Storm has also changed locations and sometimes people involved in these stories. I believe there’s sufficient evidence to question his given location of Wagoner’s Ledge.

Let’s look at Storm’s story. He says Fred Mullins was the stage driver that knew Wagoner. Mullins indeed was an AZ pioneer. His father, a native of England, migrated to Utah in one of the many Mormon wagon trains, this one in particular was organized and led across the country by one of Brigham Young’s sons. Later, Fred was part of the original group of Mormons that established the community of Mesa in the late 1870’s.

Fred was indeed a teamster as a young man in Utah. However, in AZ, Fred Mullins was a farmer. He didn’t ever drive a stage between Pinal and Casa Grande or Phoenix. These stage companies and their employees are well documented. So is Fred’s life in AZ. Based on this, it’s safe to say it most likely never happened as Storm claims.

Fred died at least a dozen years before Barry Storm arrived in AZ, so Barry heard this story about Fred, from somebody other than Fred. This was most likely one of Fred’s sons, or somebody who knew them.

Jessie Mullins was one of Fred’s sons, who spent a great deal of his life prospecting and working claims in the southeastern Superstitions area and also near Goldfield. During the period of time that he may have met Storm, Jessie was living at his brother Hart’s homestead on the banks of Queen Creek. A picture of Jessie at this homestead, near the end of his life, can be seen at the end of Bob Garman’s book. I’ve driven by that location many times. Jessie died in January of 1959 at age 83.

Continued next post….

Does everyone here think Barry Storm was just a guy who made up facts in his stories juat so he could make them interesting to sell them? Or, would there be some other reason...?
This question is coming from someone who has done 0 research into Storm orther then this thread and reading The Wagoners Lost Ledge. We could say, this question is my "stepping off" into the research. Was he a member of any organizations, political or fraternal? Did he ever work at a newspaper? I know I need to do my own research, but asking questions is part of that. The best research is word of mouth anyway.......

 

[PotBelly Jim]

There are still a few folks around that knew Barry Storm. I didn't

I think his reasons for changing or concealing things was based on his involvement with people in the story. For example, he put "Jenkins Lost Lode" one canyon over to the west in his books, called it "Willow Spring Canyon", which it actually was named that at the time, but now it's called "First Water Canyon". It was really in LaBarge. Just guessing, but I think he moved it one canyon to the west because he was still looking for it, and didn't want anyone else to find it. He had an agreement with Jenkins' widow. The funny thing is, he published photos that were pretty obviously taken in LaBarge.

There was a thread on here a few years ago that went into his real name, some of his history, etc. A lot of stuff in his books was just misdirection. He also had a habit of "outing" areas that people he didn't like were interested in keeping low key...such as the Linesba claims. When he heard Linesba had claimed and was working some tunnels on Bluff Springs, Storm wrote an article in LA trumpeting the find, and was in the Supes at the tunnels the next day or so. Linesba hired a bunch of guards after that to keep people out. I don't think it ever amounted to anything. There are pics of them in Burbridge's book.

IIRC it was Burbridge that admitted he'd seen Storm make some carvings on Black Top Mesa that Storm later claimed were proof the Peraltas were there.

 

[cuzimloony]

There are still a few folks around that knew Barry Storm. I didn't

I think his reasons for changing or concealing things was based on his involvement with people in the story. For example, he put "Jenkins Lost Lode" one canyon over to the west in his books, called it "Willow Spring Canyon", which it actually was named that at the time, but now it's called "First Water Canyon". It was really in LaBarge. Just guessing, but I think he moved it one canyon to the west because he was still looking for it, and didn't want anyone else to find it. He had an agreement with Jenkins' widow. The funny thing is, he published photos that were pretty obviously taken in LaBarge.

There was a thread on here a few years ago that went into his real name, some of his history, etc. A lot of stuff in his books was just misdirection. He also had a habit of "outing" areas that people he didn't like were interested in keeping low key...such as the Linesba claims. When he heard Linesba had claimed and was working some tunnels on Bluff Springs, Storm wrote an article in LA trumpeting the find, and was in the Supes at the tunnels the next day or so. Linesba hired a bunch of guards after that to keep people out. I don't think it ever amounted to anything. There are pics of them in Burbridge's book.

IIRC it was Burbridge that admitted he'd seen Storm make some carvings on Black Top Mesa that Storm later claimed were proof the Peraltas were there.

Is it time to move the discussion to the more likely stage coach stop near Hewitt's Ranch? Which is a 2 track dirt road, leads to Millsite and an elderly person could actually walk............

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Maybe an even better question would be this: Where would the hand-cobbed gold have come from? Keeping in mind that the road Wagoner was dropped off on, was the road that led to the Silver King

And the Silver King had large pockets of rich gold in it, which was mercilessly highgraded by miner and owner alike...

The drivers of the Silver King ore wagons would keep high-grade in an ore bag up by their seat, then throw it onto the side of the road at a pre-determined location.

Once the ore wagon went by, someone would come out of the brush, retrieve the highgraded ore, and hide it nearby for later retreival.

Keeping in mind, of course, that an old sick guy would show up on the side of that road with a carpet bag or suitcase of handcobbed ore

The stage trips from the Silver King did in fact take 3 days. One day out to Casa Grande, second day in town to corral incoming train passengers and mail, return trip on the third day.

If Wagoner was retrieving high-graded gold hidden not far from the road, it would've been a fairly laid-back trip for him.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Does everyone here think Barry Storm was just a guy who made up facts in his stories juat so he could make them interesting to sell them? Or, would there be some other reason...?
This question is coming from someone who has done 0 research into Storm orther then this thread and reading The Wagoners Lost Ledge. We could say, this question is my "stepping off" into the research. Was he a member of any organizations, political or fraternal? Did he ever work at a newspaper? I know I need to do my own research, but asking questions is part of that. The best research is word of mouth anyway.......

Cuzimloony

In my assessment from some of the research I've done (and its minimal at this point), there's a very good chance that Storm's tales are exaggerated a tad. That being said; I'm also in the camp of believing many who spin a yarn or two - exaggerate on purpose, as their intentions are being closely guarded - not allowing certain details to be revealed. In what I've gathered - many Hunters will reluctantly give a story if pressed upon and in doing so - reveal ONLY what is gleaned on the surface of said story. It's either a reason of personal protection of an area that is still in the works - OR - it's been recovered, but decided to keep the 'find" hidden, as to keep the story alive. Which ever it is, this can be frustrating for many.

Regardless of which story one decides to pursue - each and every yarn has it's morsels of truth and a whole lot of garbage, all mixed in - just to make things seem just out of reach.

What I will say about both the Wagoner's tale AND the Jacob Waltz legend - is that in both scenarios, I don't believe either man walked very far into those Supes. From what I've experienced back in there, at 110° myself, is that one is not going to get very far in or out easily - all while trying to escape the intense weather. Though I understand that people back then, were a heck of a lot tougher than we are today in modern times; it's almost impossible for an 81 year old carrying any type of suitcase full of Ore - nor can I imagine Waltz doing something similar at his age and the distance many think the LDM is located at. All of this tells me, that the desired locations of both stories are closer than anyone has thought it to be. I can't be definitive with the Wagoner's tale - but with all the research I've done on good old Jacob, I am convinced HIS location is where many believe there is no gold - and it's closer than anyone has ever thought. I believe THIS is why the LDM hasn't been relocated in at least the last 100 years or so. I have a feeling that there's been a relocating of the LDM (or a Peralta Mine), since Jacob's time - but in that finding whomever it was, kept things covered for whatever personal reasons.

I guess a bigger question with regards to Jacob, would be; who made the Waltz Map?

-SpartanOC

​

 

[SPARTANOC]

Maybe an even better question would be this: Where would the hand-cobbed gold have come from? Keeping in mind that the road Wagoner was dropped off on, was the road that led to the Silver King

And the Silver King had large pockets of rich gold in it, which was mercilessly highgraded by miner and owner alike...

The drivers of the Silver King ore wagons would keep high-grade in an ore bag up by their seat, then throw it onto the side of the road at a pre-determined location.

Once the ore wagon went by, someone would come out of the brush, retrieve the highgraded ore, and hide it nearby for later retreival.

Keeping in mind, of course, that an old sick guy would show up on the side of that road with a carpet bag or suitcase of handcobbed ore

The stage trips from the Silver King did in fact take 3 days. One day out to Casa Grande, second day in town to corral incoming train passengers and mail, return trip on the third day.

If Wagoner was retrieving high-graded gold hidden not far from the road, it would've been a fairly laid-back trip for him.

Your assessment seems logical and the location you speak of - looks inviting.

Hewitt Canyon does seem to these days, come up more often, in several discussions about different stories. Makes one think. 🤔
-SpartanOC

 

[SPARTANOC]

And it is surely not.........video coming.

Cuzimloony

I do have to say congratulations on your journey, pics and what videos are to come. You did an incredible job in getting out there (looks like you were alone out there) - reaching the targeted areas of interest and your observations. Well done. It's good to see one, making the journey and putting in the effort of possible discoveries. It really does take bravery and a good level of skills to forge into those Mountains - and get back alive without any surprises. I tip my hat off to you. Or in this case a big thumbs up.

-SpartanOC

 

[cuzimloony]

"The drivers of the Silver King ore wagons would keep high-grade in an ore bag up by their seat, then throw it onto the side of the road at a pre-determined location.

Once the ore wagon went by, someone would come out of the brush, retrieve the highgraded ore, and hide it nearby for later retreival."

What!! Haha Incredible. My first thought was to walk that area with a metal detector. Then I realized: That area, at least along Queen Creek, is where peopke go to shoot. You'd be pulling brass and lead all day.
Iv't even set up targets outside Petrach's old shack along Queen Creek for some target practice. (I wasn't the first, the fact that his property is covered in shotgun shells gave me the idea.)
I called it the Dead Horse Shooting Range, because somebody either dumped a dead horse there, or it laid down and died there.

Cuzimloony

In my assessment from some of the research I've done (and its minimal at this point), there's a very good chance that Storm's tales are exaggerated a tad. That being said; I'm also in the camp of believing many who spin a yarn or two - exaggerate on purpose, as their intentions are being closely guarded - not allowing certain details to be revealed. In what I've gathered - many Hunters will reluctantly give a story if pressed upon and in doing so - reveal ONLY what is gleaned on the surface of said story. It's either a reason of personal protection of an area that is still in the works - OR - it's been recovered, but decided to keep the 'find" hidden, as to keep the story alive. Which ever it is, this can be frustrating for many.

Regardless of which story one decides to pursue - each and every yarn has it's morsels of truth and a whole lot of garbage, all mixed in - just to make things seem just out of reach.

What I will say about both the Wagoner's tale AND the Jacob Waltz legend - is that in both scenarios, I don't believe either man walked very far into those Supes. From what I've experienced back in there, at 110° myself, is that one is not going to get very far in or out easily - all while trying to escape the intense weather. Though I understand that people back then, were a heck of a lot tougher than we are today in modern times; it's almost impossible for an 81 year old carrying any type of suitcase full of Ore - nor can I imagine Waltz doing something similar at his age and the distance many think the LDM is located at. All of this tells me, that the desired locations of both stories are closer than anyone has thought it to be. I can't be definitive with the Wagoner's tale - but with all the research I've done on good old Jacob, I am convinced HIS location is where many believe there is no gold - and it's closer than anyone has ever thought. I believe THIS is why the LDM hasn't been relocated in at least the last 100 years or so. I have a feeling that there's been a relocating of the LDM (or a Peralta Mine), since Jacob's time - but in that finding whomever it was, kept things covered for whatever personal reasons.

I guess a bigger question with regards to Jacob, would be; who made the Waltz Map?

-SpartanOC

​

I have a different take, but similar. My idea is that the entire story of the dutchman, is fake and an on purpose distraction to make sure you aren't looking at the right spot. The fact that the dutchman came from Natchez is a major clue, to me at least. That, and the fact that the first Peralta stories started right at the civil war. There was a major political/fraternal organization headquartered at Natchez that owned multiple mining companies, specialized in hiring miners from Germany and giving them employment at their mines. One of those being the Martinez Mine way further south in the Sups, which happened to be close to the train.
I think something big was going on in a completely different spot. And if your orginazation owns mining companies, who's to say they dont have some authors or newspapermen on the books too?
Neither here nor there for this thread....... There is a-whole-nother section for this on this site and I dont like to mix them up. Dutch-hunters laugh at me
I firmly believe that The Dutchman isn't taking the Peralta Trail past Miners Needle and the Wagoner isn't walking Red Tanks, to LaBarge, to Whisky Springs. Not even close. No way no how.
So.......if there is any truth to the Wagoner, it's at a completely different spot. Not "next valley over" but miles away........

 

[cuzimloony]

Cuzimloony

I do have to say congratulations on your journey, pics and what videos are to come. You did an incredible job in getting out there (looks like you were alone out there) - reaching the targeted areas of interest and your observations. Well done. It's good to see one, making the journey and putting in the effort of possible discoveries. It really does take bravery and a good level of skills to forge into those Mountains - and get back alive without any surprises. I tip my hat off to you. Or in this case a big thumbs up.

-SpartanOC

Hey thanks man. It really was just a lot of putting one foot in front of the other I appreciate that man thanks!
Looks like a Millsite Canyon trip is up next........

 

[SPARTANOC]

Hey thanks man. It really was just a lot of putting one foot in front of the other I appreciate that man thanks!
Looks like a Millsite Canyon trip is up next........

Absolutely - its the next level up. Good luck fellow Hunter. Looking forward to your observations and discoveries.

 

[cuzimloony]

Your assessment seems logical and the location you speak of - looks inviting.

Hewitt Canyon does seem to these days, come up more often, in several discussions about different stories. Makes one think. 🤔
-SpartanOC

Speaking of Hewitt..........and Millsite.....
Get a 1900 USGS map of the area and find the horse.
May give some "fun spots" to investigate, if you're into seeing faces in maps