Wagoner's Lost Ledge

[Idahodutch]

I've read several versions of the "Wagoner's Lost Ledge" tale, but the source that I'm using here is taken from Barry Storm's book, "Thunder Gods Gold." Other versions are essentially the same.

This is my favorite tale of lost gold in the Superstition Mountains. It seems to be well documented, and a map comes along with it. There are many rocky outcroppings just west of Picacho Butte and south of LaBarge Canyon, so it would take a lot of prospecting to examine all the possible locations of a lost ledge. I would guess, though, if the tale can be considered to mostly be accurate facts, that a tired, hungry man, who was looking for the shortest, easiest way to get where he wanted to go, would give preference to low ground in the arroyos. Also, according to the tale, Wagoner planted trees around the ledge. Trees need a reliable water source to grow, so this suggests a location near an arroyo.

With those clues in mind and using GE, I see one, possible location for the lost ledge. It's not the only possibility; there are surely others, and possibly many others, due to the abundance of outcroppings. The place I've found, however, would make me stop in my tracks and give it close scrutiny.

I'm not providing GPS coordinates for the place shown in the GE image below. Follow the right-forking arroyo in the wide-angle view and that place will be found. LaBarge Canyon winds to the left in the image.

View attachment 2053366

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Skyhawk,
I think your path is probably correct, or very close.

The path described was not the path shown on the map, as it was the first trip to the outcropping. The map shows how he went after that.

I totally agree that Trap canyon, where it ties in to LaBarge, is at the 3 mile mark.
Whether he stayed at Trap Springs, or just where the springs ties into LaBarge, is not known.

From there, the next morning, he headed off towards a SE destination, for about an hour.

Here is a GE snip of the 3 miles East of Weaver Needle, and hitting LaBarge.
Then a line going to the SE, approximately the distance one might travel in that time.

The total distance along that line is just over 4 miles.

The next GE snip shows a closer view of the end of the SE directional line.

The end of the SE line, is right next to the bottom of the question mark land feature (perhaps the one shown on the map?)

The question mark land feature, is an outcropping, and according to the map, the trail goes to the dot, at the bottom of the question mark, from where I sit 😁👌.

Below is a zoom in of the possible question mark land feature.

Is this the spot from the map?
I don’t know, but looks like it might be.

Boots on the ground would maybe provide an answer 🤷🏼‍♂️😁

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

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[markmar]

Someone in good shape can walk in a hour at least 2 miles.
Spanish measurement for a legua ( one hour walk ) in their treasure maps, is at 2,7 miles. Now, for a common hiker, depends of the difficulty of the terrain but the distance remains at least 2 miles ( for the Superstitions ).

 

[skyhawk1251]

Skyhawk,
I think your path is probably correct, or very close.

The path described was not the path shown on the map, as it was the first trip to the outcropping. The map shows how he went after that.

I totally agree that Trap canyon, where it ties in to LaBarge, is at the 3 mile mark.
Whether he stayed at Trap Springs, or just where the springs ties into LaBarge, is not known.

From there, the next morning, he headed off towards a SE destination, for about an hour.

Here is a GE snip of the 3 miles East of Weaver Needle, and hitting LaBarge.
Then a line going to the SE, approximately the distance one might travel in that time.

The total distance along that line is just over 4 miles.

View attachment 2135559

The next GE snip shows a closer view of the end of the SE directional line.

View attachment 2135561
The end of the SE line, is right next to the bottom of the question mark land feature (perhaps the one shown on the map?)

The question mark land feature, is an outcropping, and according to the map, the trail goes to the dot, at the bottom of the question mark, from where I sit 😁👌.

Below is a zoom in of the possible question mark land feature.

View attachment 2135562
Is this the spot from the map?
I don’t know, but looks like it might be.

Boots on the ground would maybe provide an answer 🤷🏼‍♂️😁

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

I've noticed recently that GE seems to have updated imagery for at least part of the Superstition Mountains. Resolution is not as good and colors are not as they were. I've had to use the history slider to go back to earlier imagery with better resolution and more realistic colors.

As far as the lost ledge is concerned, it's important to keep in mind that erosion can expose, or cover, outcroppings over the passage of time, so the ledge could now be easily visible, or it could be more "lost" than it was before.

 

[Sandinmypants]

I just wanted to say Thanks to skyhawk---I enjoyed this

 

[SPARTANOC]

Skyhawk,
I think your path is probably correct, or very close.

The path described was not the path shown on the map, as it was the first trip to the outcropping. The map shows how he went after that.

I totally agree that Trap canyon, where it ties in to LaBarge, is at the 3 mile mark.
Whether he stayed at Trap Springs, or just where the springs ties into LaBarge, is not known.

From there, the next morning, he headed off towards a SE destination, for about an hour.

Here is a GE snip of the 3 miles East of Weaver Needle, and hitting LaBarge.
Then a line going to the SE, approximately the distance one might travel in that time.

The total distance along that line is just over 4 miles.

View attachment 2135559

The next GE snip shows a closer view of the end of the SE directional line.

View attachment 2135561
The end of the SE line, is right next to the bottom of the question mark land feature (perhaps the one shown on the map?)

The question mark land feature, is an outcropping, and according to the map, the trail goes to the dot, at the bottom of the question mark, from where I sit 😁👌.

Below is a zoom in of the possible question mark land feature.

View attachment 2135562
Is this the spot from the map?
I don’t know, but looks like it might be.

Boots on the ground would maybe provide an answer 🤷🏼‍♂️😁

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Idahodutch

With regards to the Wagoner map, could it be possible that the question mark on the map - is not a question mark at all, but a symbol for a small mound - having the final dot marking the South end of said mound? Yours and Skyhawk1251 thoughts are welcomed.

 

[skyhawk1251]

Idahodutch

With regards to the Wagoner map, could it be possible that the question mark on the map - is not a question mark at all, but a symbol for a small mound - having the final dot marking the South end of said mound? Yours and Skyhawk1251 thoughts are welcomed.

I see the question mark as being just that. Storm is indicating that the end of the trail is at an indeterminant distance. Even if the ledge is located at a mound I think that location would be shown simply as an "X" or other treasure symbol.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Near the end of his tale Barry Storm writes of "a man named Pinkey", who also had a copy of the map to the golden ledge. Apparently Pinkey only had the map and no other details, verbal or written, about exactly where the ledge was located. Pinkey's instructions also were vague about where he was to meet with Wagoner. The "Pinkey story" raises some questions.

The most important question is: why did Pinkey expect to meet with Wagoner when the letter that came with the map, dated twenty years earlier, indicated that Wagoner had died long before? The answer probably is: Pinkey was not expecting to meet with anyone. As far as he knew "the board house" was the starting point of the route to the ledge, and he was ready to begin a search for the ledge on his own. The question remains, however: why did Pinkey wait twenty years to begin his search?

Another question is: why did Wagoner give a map to Mullins, then later gave a map to Pinkey? Did Wagoner directly give the map to Pinkey, or did the map pass through Mullins' hands before Pinkey got it? Did Pinkey pay Mullins for the map?

View attachment 2054436

I would suggest "Pinkey" is "Bick" - P.C. Bicknell.

Probert's "Waggoner's Lost Mine" references - Jack Black, Conrotto (Desert Magazine), McAllister, Penfield, Rieseberg - are uniformly unreliable. It appears to be the story starts and end with "Barry Storm."

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch

With regards to the Wagoner map, could it be possible that the question mark on the map - is not a question mark at all, but a symbol for a small mound - having the final dot marking the South end of said mound? Yours and Skyhawk1251 thoughts are welcomed.

SpartanOC,
It is certainly possible.
The lines I put in, are just distance measurements.
The 3 mile distance from WN at LaBarge fit right with Trap Canyon.

On the map, it looks like Whisky Springs Canyon is where he was headed to, on the West of Picacho Butte.

In looking around in the vicinity indicated on the map, a few years ago, when I had a computer to view with GE, I could switch to different years, to look to see if there was a feature that resembled a question mark.
The one I showed is easier to see if a different year is selected, but I just have my phone.

This time, the question mark is not as clear, but it does look like there is a mound in the center of the feature.

I think the question mark on the map, was a land feature, because there is a feature there that looks like it 🤗

I don’t think he hiked along the line I drew, but I think he followed what he perceived as easiest path to get to the SE from his camp in LaBarge.

I could see it taking at least an hour to get to that question mark. Especially if he continued along LaBarge, until he saw a good path to get more to the south, like heading up Whisky Springs Canyon.

Maybe he saw the question mark from a distance, and decided to check it out.

All we know, is that when he made the map, the path goes to the symbol he drew, that looks like a question mark.

The story seems to jive with what’s on the map, and with the layout of canyons and things, and even a feature that seams to be in the spot shown. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Probably doesn’t help much 🤓
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Another thought on his initial path, he probably was looking for signs of water. He may have been headed towards the greenery around the Eastern part of Whisky Springs Canyon, gotten water at the springs, and hiked up to get a new potential path, decided maybe he was too far East, and was scoping out a southern path from the western part of Whisky Springs Canyon…… over by a funny looking land feature.

Is something like that, why he was over by that feature?
(If that’s the feature from the map)

That’s all I got, at the moment 🤔🤓
Idahodutch

 

[SPARTANOC]

Another thought on his initial path, he probably was looking for signs of water. He may have been headed towards the greenery around the Eastern part of Whisky Springs Canyon, gotten water at the springs, and hiked up to get a new potential path, decided maybe he was too far East, and was scoping out a southern path from the western part of Whisky Springs Canyon…… over by a funny looking land feature.

Is something like that, why he was over by that feature?
(If that’s the feature from the map)

That’s all I got, at the moment 🤔🤓
Idahodutch

Idahodutch

With regards to the question mark "feature", I'm not sure it would be based on something "etched" or naturally created as a question mark per say. The traveler in question wouldn't have been able to see a formation of a question mark on the ground - providing the image of a question mark was laid out on the ground covering a large area, which would only be visible from above (flying above the area). Now, that being said, this could be referring to a series of rocks that create an image of a question mark OR its referring to an undisclosed amount of distance, which could not be determined - ergo the question mark symbol.

I don't want to put too much pondering into the question mark feature, but it could be a decisive element that could "crack" the code of the map for said location of the outcrop ledge itself.

What got me thinking about the question mark, is the information that the supposed outcrop is on a Southern slope side of an area, so in looking at the question mark, I see a mound with a Southern slope. Of course I could be seeing something that's not there, trying to put a square block in a circular hole.

-SPARTANOC

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch

With regards to the question mark "feature", I'm not sure it would be based on something "etched" or naturally created as a question mark per say. The traveler in question wouldn't have been able to see a formation of a question mark on the ground - providing the image of a question mark was laid out on the ground covering a large area, which would only be visible from above (flying above the area). Now, that being said, this could be referring to a series of rocks that create an image of a question mark OR its referring to an undisclosed amount of distance, which could not be determined - ergo the question mark symbol.

I don't want to put too much pondering into the question mark feature, but it could be a decisive element that could "crack" the code of the map for said location of the outcrop ledge itself.

What got me thinking about the question mark, is the information that the supposed outcrop is on a Southern slope side of an area, so in looking at the question mark, I see a mound with a Southern slope. Of course I could be seeing something that's not there, trying to put a square block in a circular hole.

-SPARTANOC

Good morning Spartanoc,
The question mark feature, is raised up .. around the mound … like an outcrop might look. Also it looks to be about 40’ from top to bottom (right to left)
See image below …

In zooming back out from this vantage point (the hills east, above Whisky springs),
The feature looks like it could be visible from up there … see next image:

The drop pin near top of image, is the feature in question, and Whisky spring is near bottom of the image, in the canyon below.

And there is a southern slope to that feature …. Not real large area, which might be a good thing. 🤷🏼‍♂️

All are pretty much just speculations without going on and looking. If I was younger, and was not focused on other places, it might be a good spot to at least check out. 🤓

But it could just as easy be nothing. GE is not always what you see when in there in person. 😬🤔
Still it’s a good tool for kind of looking around. 😁

Good luck, if you go. Only one way to find out what is really there 🤓

I did notice that the final path to and from, goes around the north side of Picacho Butte….. not out to the SE through whiskey Spring Canyon.

Maybe he never did see a way that he liked, leaving that area, on out to the SE like he originally planned. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Idahodutch

 

[skyhawk1251]

Here is another spot near Whiskey Spring that has some interesting surface features, although I would bet they are not as shown by Google Earth. I won't bias anyone's opinion by saying what I think I see. I'll only suggest that this site might be favorable for camping and for use as a place for exploring the surrounding area. It is not where I would expect to find the lost ledge. From the tale as it is told, I would focus more on eroded gullies feeding into Whiskey Spring Canyon, plus any uplifted dikes of rocky extrusions visible on the slopes adjacent to the canyon. The western side of the canyon looks more favorable for success, rather than the eastern side. I favor the idea that Wagoner stopped at Whiskey Spring, then went upslope to see the easiest way to get to where he wanted to go.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Good morning Spartanoc,
The question mark feature, is raised up .. around the mound … like an outcrop might look. Also it looks to be about 40’ from top to bottom (right to left)
See image below …
View attachment 2135863
In zooming back out from this vantage point (the hills east, above Whisky springs),
The feature looks like it could be visible from up there … see next image:
View attachment 2135864
The drop pin near top of image, is the feature in question, and Whisky spring is near bottom of the image, in the canyon below.

And there is a southern slope to that feature …. Not real large area, which might be a good thing. 🤷🏼‍♂️

All are pretty much just speculations without going on and looking. If I was younger, and was not focused on other places, it might be a good spot to at least check out. 🤓

But it could just as easy be nothing. GE is not always what you see when in there in person. 😬🤔
Still it’s a good tool for kind of looking around. 😁

Good luck, if you go. Only one way to find out what is really there 🤓

I did notice that the final path to and from, goes around the north side of Picacho Butte….. not out to the SE through whiskey Spring Canyon.

Maybe he never did see a way that he liked, leaving that area, on out to the SE like he originally planned. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Idahodutch

Idahodutch

Excellent work/interested portions, on mapping things. I appreciate the effort given to my observations.

I believe you've got a good spot, matching the form of the question mark as well as, a sloping effect is present AND what looks to be a possible outcrop IS on the Southern portion of that small hill/mound. My areas of interest are in that vicinity - no more than 50 to 100 yards away from your point of interest. The areas I've been looking at seem to favor more on the Whisky Spring canyon area Southbound, as there are similar hills with what could be outcrops. So hard to tell without being there.

I've attached your interest area using GE (seems to have better graphics. Of course that might be due to my PC that is well loaded to handle higher end graphics).

The next image (below this sentence) is an area just East of your interested area, off of Whisky Springs. Again, the possible outcrop is on the Southern end of the Hill/mound.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Here is another spot near Whiskey Spring that has some interesting surface features, although I would bet they are not as shown by Google Earth. I won't bias anyone's opinion by saying what I think I see. I'll only suggest that this site might be favorable for camping and for use as a place for exploring the surrounding area. It is not where I would expect to find the lost ledge. From the tale as it is told, I would focus more on eroded gullies feeding into Whiskey Spring Canyon, plus any uplifted dikes of rocky extrusions visible on the slopes adjacent to the canyon. The western side of the canyon looks more favorable for success, rather than the eastern side. I favor the idea that Wagoner stopped at Whiskey Spring, then went upslope to see the easiest way to get to where he wanted to go.

View attachment 2135887

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View attachment 2135889

View attachment 2135890

Skyhawk1251

Out standing Skyhawk1251, that is the exact area I'm referring to (the first screen shot) - or at least that's my favorable guess. There are interesting features in several spots in the general area. I'm in agreement with you, that more than likely, the ledge would be on more of the West side of Whiskey Springs and in IMHO Wagoner did use Whisky Springs as a water resource. Since he relied on finding water holes (Springs), I would imagine him not only using Whiskey Springs, but also Trap Canyon Springs as well as La Barge Spring #2 - utilizing all that he could have obtained for survival. Not sure if he was a genius or an idiot - to not carry water, but to rely on finding Springs along the way. Crazy to think about it. I do realize though, that at some point, everyone if wanting to go in deep - would have to rely on finding some of those Springs and seeing this year's rain fall, I would think, the Springs are fuller than usual.

Below is one more area of interest - more North of my last possible location, but in the same vicinity.

-SPARTANOC

 

[SPARTANOC]

Gentlemen

Here are two more areas I've found interesting. They are both West of Whiskey Springs.

-SPARTANOC

 

[markmar]

In Barry Storm's account, there are some accurate clues, but also few inaccurate. To find the inaccurate, someone has to be in the region of the Upper LaBarge Box Canyon. While there, he will understand how from Trap Spring and Whiskey Spring, Weaver's Needle and Miner's Needle are not visible.
It's clear how Wagoner made that distances out when was on high land when was going south from that spring , towards Whitlow Canyon. Except he was so familiar with the region and he could find out the distances in his mind with approximation by seeing the place he was located. So, the last option leave an open window for a small tolerance on the said distances and orientation for the WN and MN.
From the point where the trail that is coming from Tortilla Creek joins LaBarge Canyon just east of Herman's Mountain, the only spring and canyon which could lead around Picacho Butte to the south at one mile walking down canyon, is Whiskey Spring and Whiskey Canyon. There would not been a reason for Wagoner to turn to the right on LaBarge and to go opposite the direction he wanted to go.
Also there is a crucial clue in that text, clue which all you have missed because you have not been in the region in regards to can understand it. That clue is the key for the Wagoner's mine solving.

 

[gollum]

SKYHAWK,

You have to know the facts of the story to get close to an outcome. The "Spring" and ledge are on the SOUTH SIDE of LaBarge. That shuts out Music Cyn Spring, Trap Cyn Spring, LaBarge Spring, and freaking Charlebois Spring. Bluff Springs is to the WEST of LaBarge. THAT ONLY LEAVES WHISKEY SPRING. Wagoner's Ledge is the same as Joe Deering found and John Chuning wanted.

Definitely the Two Soldiers and probably the Doc Thorne were the Lost Dutchman. That mine was wide open with tailings for at least 60 years before Waltz sealed it in 1881.

Mike

 

[markmar]

SKYHAWK,

You have to know the facts of the story to get close to an outcome. The "Spring" and ledge are on the SOUTH SIDE of LaBarge. That shuts out Music Cyn Spring, Trap Cyn Spring, LaBarge Spring, and freaking Charlebois Spring. Bluff Springs is to the WEST of LaBarge. THAT ONLY LEAVES WHISKEY SPRING. Wagoner's Ledge is the same as Joe Deering found and John Chuning wanted.

Definitely the Two Soldiers and probably the Doc Thorne were the Lost Dutchman. That mine was wide open with tailings for at least 60 years before Waltz sealed it in 1881.

Mike

Mike, there are few differences between Wagoner's clues and Deering's clues.

First, Wagoner's gold is about one mile to the west from a spring, and Deering's mine is about five miles from a spring.

Second, Wagoner found it by accident following a route made out by himself, and Deering found it following a trail which led at the spot. Not any trail close by the gold was mentioned by Wagoner in his description.

And third, Wagoner said the Military trail is about one mile to the north from the gold outcropping, and Deering was following a part of that Military trail. The Army used the well worned Indian and miner's trails in that era.

IMHO, Wagoner's gold was never found by another known person mentioned in the Superstitions lore. Joe Deering and John Deer, were the only persons known who have been at the LDM inclined shaft, not the real LDM which was dug out by Waltz from a gold outcropping.
Also, my opinion is the Two Soldiers have found a small mine worked by the Peraltas on the south side of Black Top Mesa and the Doc Thorne gold was and continue to be a gold outcropping litlle downward on the same canyon with the LDM.

 

[SPARTANOC]

skyhawk1251​

Any luck on this endeavor?

-SpartanOC

 

[Idahodutch]

SKYHAWK,

You have to know the facts of the story to get close to an outcome. The "Spring" and ledge are on the SOUTH SIDE of LaBarge. That shuts out Music Cyn Spring, Trap Cyn Spring, LaBarge Spring, and freaking Charlebois Spring. Bluff Springs is to the WEST of LaBarge. THAT ONLY LEAVES WHISKEY SPRING. Wagoner's Ledge is the same as Joe Deering found and John Chuning wanted.

Definitely the Two Soldiers and probably the Doc Thorne were the Lost Dutchman. That mine was wide open with tailings for at least 60 years before Waltz sealed it in 1881.

Mike

Mike,
I beg to differ on WHEN Waltz sealed up his mine.
From all accounts, Waltz sealed up “his mine” the same winter he buried Weiser inside of it. Then he put the big cache on top of the sealed mine, then covered up the whole thing.

That, according to accounts, was the same time he and Weiser first arrived on scene. So probably not the same as “two soldiers”. 😉, but i agree, the original deposit up above, could be the same as Doc Thorne’s….. the one Waltz and Weiser abandon in favor of what they found below.

The time frame of ~1881 was supposedly when he got the last little cache …. 🤫 🤷🏼‍♂️

However, I think you are spot on about Whisky Springs area for Wagoners. 👍

- Idahodutch