Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

[Old Bookaroo]

Mike:

I can't argue your points. Although whether or not Father Polzer was an expert...I'm not sure an analysis of the bars is necessarily required. There are other ways to tell.

I am quite sure there are a great many more fakes out there then the real thing. Look at some of the photos in the treasure and adventure magazines from the 1950s, '60s and '70s - there are quite a few obvious fakes.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

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[gollum]

Bookaroo,

I don't need to look in any books (although I have many). Because of my reputation, website, and a few online forums, I have had people send me pics of literally dozens and dozens of silver and gold bars that had been passed down in their families, found with metal detectors, etc.

A simple way to tell an obvious fake is that when ingots are made, all the letters, numbers, and symbols are cast into the bars. The fakes typically are cast bars, then silver wire is shaped like the letters, symbols, and numbers, laid onto the bars, and then melted onto the surface. They are always easy to spot. Silver bars are easier to fake as well, because silver is cheaper to get than gold. That is why I usually give more weight to finds of gold bars (like my friend that found the 82 pounds of gold bars).

Mike

 

[Connecticut Sam]

How much all the treasure was found?

 

[lostcauses]

Benny Samaniego and his suit of armor found; was said to be in the Salem arena. Wore it in a parade. Family says it was his own find unrelated to Noss. Supposedly a box was found with it also.

More than one rumor of him working for Noss.
The main one was that two drifts were put in to get back into the original entrance, and both missed. So they started back down the original opening.

Strange that so far the only place I have seen this, is in Vics peak.. Any photos of such an attempt on the other peak,
Last known status of that area I am talking about ( Vics) was wilderness study area due to the sheep.

 

[gollum]

Lost,

Benny did indeed work for Doc Noss. Doc gave him the suit of armor that I believe he eventually sold for $70,000. Doc also had given him some gold. Willie Daught also said that Benny was caught by Doc stealing some of the gold from VP, which was why they had a falling out.

Mike

 

[lostcauses]

gollum
As usual it comes down to one set of stories to the other. People of course tend to believe the one that fits there desires.

Benny was an interesting character unto himself. Then there is the bird rock still in the family the last I new. But then I have not kept track of them so who knows.

I take nothing as fact that it seems most do in the case. A few assay reports, documents of statements by questionable characters etc. I listen, and read all, and believe very little.

As I have found through the years people want to believe. People want attention, or to be a apart of "IT" etc.

When I encounter true believers that do not question, I am always careful, As I am not a true believer.

I have listened to the stories since I was a small kid.

I still go out and play in the hills, over of course non restricted areas.

New Mexico has a great deal of history, and stories.

Last night at a local bar some one tried to engage me in the treasure hunting talk.
Of course he claimed he could take me and show me were the treasure is. And of course I laughed ad told him " If you know were it is why are you sitting here??". Of course I wished him well in his pursuit.

As I tell people when they ask me were it is, I tell them the truth. If I knew were it was at I would not be sitting here talking to you.

As for the whole Noss story it is a strange and twisted one. The history, story, and supposed artifacts have a problem with matching history etc..

I can say one thing for sure. Vics peak did have gold and was produce in that area.

The other does not, yet of course the answer to that is it was all brought in, or mined in the mountain.

Enough rambling for today.

 

[Springfield]

lostcauses - excellent post. Excellent.

 

[gollum]

Lost Causes,

Interesting points all and mostly true. Do you have any reasons to doubt Willie Daught's version of things? Willie lived until 1998, and gave only two interviews I know of, and both of them were to the same person. I don't think they were more than a few years apart. In his own words, after Ryan shot Doc Noss he left the area with the gold he and Buster Ward had taken out of their cave (in the Caballos), changed his name, and lived the rest of his life on that money. When he died in 1998, his estate was valued at about $1.5million (as I understand it). To recap, he lived from 1949 until 1998 on his half of the gold. He had enough to still leave $1.5 million when he died.

Willie was probably Doc's closest friend. When Willie was kidnapped by some guys trying to find out where his cave was, Doc was the one that came to Willie's rescue.

I don't take Doc at his every word. Between the Tony Jolley and Willie Daught interviews I have, and some of the other information I have gotten from other sources, I am pretty well satisfied as to what happened there in the 1930s. If the information is factual, and I don't have a reason to doubt it, I am also fairly satisfied as to the origins of the different caches. Little details like the exact order of the finds of different people are still elusive, but mean very little. They would have no great effect on the rest of the story.

You are absolutely free to doubt and disbelieve anything you please. Makes no difference to me, and I am not here to sell books or try to persuade anybody one way or the other.. I just offer up what evidence I have that I was given permission to give out, so that anybody interested can come to their own conclusions. If my evidence points towards an authentic treasure, so be it. If it points towards a hoax, then I have no qualms about saying so. I don't have a horse in that race. I just think it is a very interesting story that is mostly surrounded by BS. See Lost, even more dangerous than a true believer is someone who wants to be on the inside so bad, that they make up information so they sound important. These idiots distort the story so badly that it is sometimes beyond recognition. That is why I think these books are very important. I have seen it many times regarding the Lost Dutchman. I personally think the great majority of the "known" information there is total BS (but that is because the very best information is second and third hand). In this case, though, there are several people who both saw and helped move a lot of gold from VP. There are many first hand stories, backed up by polygraph test results and markings in the cave system.

I still have many questions about VP and the other treasure caves in the area, but they don't have any great effect on the story as I now understand it.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

.... In his own words, after Ryan shot Doc Noss he [Daught] left the area with the gold he and Buster Ward had taken out of their cave (in the Caballos), changed his name, and lived the rest of his life on that money..... Willie was probably Doc's closest friend. ....
I don't take Doc at his every word. ...You are absolutely free to doubt and disbelieve anything you please. .....

Being free to doubt, I doubt that two 'best friends' could be so fortunate as to each find a massive gold cache, one in the Caballos and one in the Hembrillo Basin. The odds against this coincidence are a bit steep for me, but then I'm not a true believer-at least not in the Doc Noss story. Daught did a good job of keeping his mouth shut for a long, long time. Probably a good thing for Noss' credibility.

 

[gollum]

.... In his own words, after Ryan shot Doc Noss he [Daught] left the area with the gold he and Buster Ward had taken out of their cave (in the Caballos), changed his name, and lived the rest of his life on that money..... Willie was probably Doc's closest friend. ....
I don't take Doc at his every word. ...You are absolutely free to doubt and disbelieve anything you please. .....

Being free to doubt, I doubt that two 'best friends' could be so fortunate as to each find a massive gold cache, one in the Caballos and one in the Hembrillo Basin. The odds against this coincidence are a bit steep for me, but then I'm not a true believer-at least not in the Doc Noss story. Daught did a good job of keeping his mouth shut for a long, long time. Probably a good thing for Noss' credibility.

First of all, there was absolutely no coincidence involved. From the interviews and other information I got, it seems that what Noss and Daught found were from one source.

Why would his being quiet have a good effect on Noss' credibility? His interview seems to reinforce almost everything Noss said. It also adds to Noss' Story, because he states that Noss had a lower cave on VP that he had rocked up leaving only one flat stone for access. It was in this cave that Noss kept things as he readied them to sell or move. Daught also explained (without any prompting) how and why Noss made some faked bars. I will cut that part out of the video and post it later.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

First of all, there was absolutely no coincidence involved. From the interviews and other information I got, it seems that what Noss and Daught found were from one source....

Right, and that source may well have been in the Caballo Mountains, not 40 miles east across the desert at Hembrillo Basin, scene of some mighty fine goat ropes. When Ryan put two and two together, the Noss rodeo ended.

 

[gollum]

First of all, there was absolutely no coincidence involved. From the interviews and other information I got, it seems that what Noss and Daught found were from one source....

Right, and that source may well have been in the Caballo Mountains, not 40 miles east across the desert at Hembrillo Basin, scene of some mighty fine goat ropes. When Ryan put two and two together, the Noss rodeo ended.

Far from what happened according to Daught. Ryan was the perpetrator of the scheme not Noss. Ryan was trying to get Noss' gold and not pay for it. The deal was for Ryan to give Noss the money, and Noss would guide Ryan to the gold. Ryan tried to make Noss show him the gold without giving up any money. A fight ensued and Noss was shot in the back (head).

You can theorize all you want, but a person that knew Noss well, and was around at the time this all happened put his recollections on video.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

First of all, there was absolutely no coincidence involved. From the interviews and other information I got, it seems that what Noss and Daught found were from one source....

Right, and that source may well have been in the Caballo Mountains, not 40 miles east across the desert at Hembrillo Basin, scene of some mighty fine goat ropes. When Ryan put two and two together, the Noss rodeo ended.

Far from what happened according to Daught. Ryan was the perpetrator of the scheme not Noss. Ryan was trying to get Noss' gold and not pay for it. The deal was for Ryan to give Noss the money, and Noss would guide Ryan to the gold. Ryan tried to make Noss show him the gold without giving up any money. A fight ensued and Noss was shot in the back (head).

You can theorize all you want, but a person that knew Noss well, and was around at the time this all happened put his recollections on video.

Mike

I thought Daught had disappeared to California long before the Ryan incident.

 

[lostcauses]

First of all, there was absolutely no coincidence involved. From the interviews and other information I got, it seems that what Noss and Daught found were from one source....

Right, and that source may well have been in the Caballo Mountains, not 40 miles east across the desert at Hembrillo Basin, scene of some mighty fine goat ropes. When Ryan put two and two together, the Noss rodeo ended.

Far from what happened according to Daught. Ryan was the perpetrator of the scheme not Noss. Ryan was trying to get Noss' gold and not pay for it. The deal was for Ryan to give Noss the money, and Noss would guide Ryan to the gold. Ryan tried to make Noss show him the gold without giving up any money. A fight ensued and Noss was shot in the back (head).

You can theorize all you want, but a person that knew Noss well, and was around at the time this all happened put his recollections on video.

Mike

I dont even know were to go with all ov this:

As for LF knowing noss, well he new the stories well.
As for LF being WD, of course the descended testicles seem to prove to most he was..

Of course most people don't know there exist a condition that causes such wich is a lot better explanation of such other than....

"being hung by the testicles until the body was lifted from the ground"
has some problems with it. Would be extremely rare to survive such with out immediate medical attention and so on.

I knew Lf. like him, but was he WD?? I have doubts. Of course I never talked much about the "treasure" with him other than listen to the stories he told me. He asked me one time why I did not ask him were it was. I replied If you are WD and wanted me to know were it was, you would tell me. That was the extent of time asking him about such. He would offer stories and I would listen. A smart man, and had a lot more going for him other than the tales..

Again you state stuff as fact when it is speculation. You can believe what you want. I will be the first to defend such, yet to say it as fact... well that creates one of the problems of all the tales.

As for the other posters and readers here, there existed an individual in California with the initials LF. He claimed to be WD, and told tales of the mountains and adventures of such..

As for Ryan, did anyone try and get his side of the stories or might that interfere with the belief??
It does seem always to be two side to such.
Did not take long to drop charges against Ryan.

People don't let the talk here discourage folks, its all a difference in perspectives. And I will still also state the book I saw, has a lot of good info in it.

 

[Connecticut Sam]

I believe that Doc Noss found the cave and took out much of the treasure, then the Army staff took the rest out. We entitle to know what the Army did with it.

 

[gollum]

LC,

If LF was not WD, then he was in possession of a lot of knowledge, especially things like what happened to Buster Ward when they tried to jump that train, and other things that could not easily be found (even today with the internet and unlimited cell phones with no long distance charges LOL).

Think LF may have been the other Willie that was stealing gold from the lower cavern of VP that Doc and Willie D. caught? Buster told Willie D. to kill him, and Willie D. walked him off a ways and told him to take of running. He let him get a ways off and took a shot, but missed. Said that Willie never came back again in his life to VP? Did he ever say to you that he was anybody other than WD? According to him, there was only about 2000 (ONLY) gold bars in his and Buster's cave.

An interesting thought though, that LF was not WD. I really don't see the reason to lie about being someone like WD. I can understand Jesse James or Butch Cassidy. At least there was some fame attached to their names, but I didn't know who WD was until fairly recently. hahaha Funny thing though, he is buried about two blocks from where I work.

Mike

 

[lostcauses]

LC,

If LF was not WD, then he was in possession of a lot of knowledge, especially things like what happened to Buster Ward when they tried to jump that train, and other things that could not easily be found (even today with the internet and unlimited cell phones with no long distance charges LOL).

Think LF may have been the other Willie that was stealing gold from the lower cavern of VP that Doc and Willie D. caught? Doc told Willie D. to kill him, and Willie D. walked him off a ways and told him to take of running. He let him get a ways off and took a shot, but missed. Said that Willie never came back again in his life to VP? Did he ever say to you that he was anybody other than WD? According to him, there was only about 2000 (ONLY) gold bars in his and Buster's cave.

An interesting thought though, that LF was not WD. I really don't see the reason to lie about being someone like WD. I can understand Jesse James or Butch Cassidy. At least there was some fame attached to their names, but I didn't know who WD was until fairly recently. hahaha Funny thing though, he is buried about two blocks from where I work.

Mike

"especially things like what happened to Buster Ward when they tried to jump that train, and other things that could not easily be found"

Hmm like news paper articles on said accident They existed. Communication with Busters family also showed up. As with any set of stories the more it is told the more in gets added to etc.

I don't discount who he said he was, yet I also was given no real reason to believe it. If he was not WD he damn sure kept up with the stories and information. Yet Lf was one to tell one story to one person and a different variation to others.

Strange as far as I can tell from all them stories, is that Holden was the only one that did not keep changing the stories of the original incident.

As for information and Noss in the Caballos, a search of the old mining claim records at the county level does have his names on claims. Noss got around. He did not just work one area.

 

[Springfield]

http://books.google.com/books?id=rS...&resnum=6&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

'Mystery of the Missing Tourists'. Interesting story. Mike, I know you like 'book references'. Pay attention to Doc's alleged former name in Oklahoma - Milton Starr. For those of you with ears and eyes, this is very much an alarm, especially in OK.

 

[lostcauses]

http://books.google.com/books?id=rS...&resnum=6&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

'Mystery of the Missing Tourists'. Interesting story. Mike, I know you like 'book references'. Pay attention to Doc's alleged former name in Oklahoma - Milton Starr. For those of you with ears and eyes, this is very much an alarm, especially in OK.

Thanks for the info. I had forgotten the Lorius and Heberer stories. Was a hell a reward offered for info about them at the time.

 

[lostcauses]

If Noss did the Lorius and Heberer :
I would wounder what his connection with Otto Bernhardt who supposedly hung himself close or on the day he when he was to report the the U. S. Attorney in 1942 as a witness in the case??
At the time lived in San Antonio. Otto was German born. Was a machinist and 48 years old.

Edited speeling.....

Added a link

http://newspaperarchive.com/FreePdf...67&firstvisit=true&src=search&currentResult=3