Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

[gollum]

Springfield,

While your statement about having all the ducks in a row is very true in the broad sense, it is impossible to tell 100% whether this was an assay of ore or an old ingot. From looking at the computations written in pencil, my guess would be ore, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT (and this is a kind of big butt) I don't recall seeing any mention of raw ore coming from VP. Only antiques, coins, and bars.

My guess is that this is only one of many assays.

If you look at the nice picture of Docs grandaughter holding some of the bars that were "reportedly" taken from the peak you will note something very interesting.

I saw that as well. The nice shiny looking assayer's bites?

......... and just because you haven't seen any pictures of certain things does not mean they don't exist. Several books are in the works on this subject (not just the ones you know about). There is a picture in existence that shows two people holding a big bar while another person is sawing it in half using a hacksaw. The armor you are talking about (along with a nice amount of gold) was the property of the late Benny Samaniego. It was given to him by Doc for all his assistance to the family.

After the Holmdahl link, I was inclined to put some weight behind the Villa Aspect of this, but I am also friendly with someone that was very closely involved with this whole thing since 1954. What information I post is either from my own research or from information already publicly available. I am privvy to some more, but a book is on the way (ain't it always the case HAHAHA).Much of the other information I have gotten takes us away from Villa and more towards Padre LaRue (or Laure) and later Indians as the depositors at VPS&L (Victorio Peak Savings & Loan). My friend also makes a very good point that he is doubtful about Villa having the shear amount of loot that was in VP. Also, if Villa was the source, then why haven't any of the people that worked for him (that would have known about its' location) come forward? Also, Villa wasn't known to have done to his people what was done to the skeletons in that room in the Peak.

also, I contacted Skyline Assayers in Tucson. They bought out Hawley&Hawley Assayers in 1973. Unfortunately for us, they did not keep H&H's Records after the buyout. Their assay records only go back to 1999. They are looking at a copy of that assay I sent them to see if they can figure if it is about ore or ingot. I will post whatever they reply.

Best-Mike

 

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[Peerless67]

If you look at the nice picture of Docs grandaughter holding some of the bars that were "reportedly" taken from the peak you will note something very interesting.

I saw that as well. The nice shiny looking assayer's bites?

Thats not quite what I was getting at Mike, look at the size of those bars, then take a look at the other items that came out.
Like the size of the armour you posted, the crown, the wells boxes.

Then ask yourself this, the hole was big enough to allow a wells box out, the hole was big enough to allow a suit of armour out. and yet they had to BLOW UP the entrance.

Can anyone offer a sensible reason why anyone would do that ?

 

[gollum]

The ENTRANCE was not blown up. It is still there under steel and cement.

Have you ever been down deep in a narrow natural cave?

While it would have been possible to drag some of the larger items through the long narrow crevices, in order to make moving large amounts of loot more efficient and easy, it would be only natural to make any narrow turns or passages bigger.

Remember, it was possible to bring out those things. It never said anywhere in the story that it was easy. Doc was just trying to make it easier to bring out what was inside.

I believe (without rereading the story) that there was a choke point in the cave where there was a large boulder that had to be squeezed under to get past. That was the spot that Doc wanted to open up.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Gary,

Holmdahl also was put in charge of guarding trains that carried bullion in Mexico. Those trains were constantly being robbed by bandits, which is why Holmdahl got the job. If he was involved in Doc's treasure, that would also be a possible source for the goodies.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Peerless67]

Gary,

Holmdahl also was put in charge of guarding trains that carried bullion in Mexico. Those trains were constantly being robbed by bandits, which is why Holmdahl got the job. If he was involved in Doc's treasure, that would also be a possible source for the goodies.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe, anything is possible.

 

[gollum]

Here is the entire correspondence between myself and Skyline Assayers who purchased Hawley & Hawley in 1973:

Good Morning,

I see that Skyline purchased Hawley & Hawley. Did Skyline keep all of H&H Records after the buyout? My reason for asking is that while researching a story regarding Milton "Doc" Noss and a treasure under Victorio Peak, NM, I found this assay report (see attached). There is some question as to whether this is an assay done on ore or an ingot (since the gold and silver are in OZ per ton and the copper is in total percentage) . If it was an ingot, it would seem to be a copper bar with a very small percentage of gold and silver.

Does the "OZs per ton" typed in mean that all the measurements were in ounces per ton?

I just can't tell for certain one way or the other whether this is an ore assay or that of an old ingot. Any assistance you could give would be greatly appreciated.

Mike McChesney

Dear Mr. McChesney,

No we did not keep the records and that purchase took place in the early 1970's. , since then there have been a couple more transactions and our records only go back as to 1999.

Best of luck.

Thanks for your reply. Is there any way to tell from the assay whether it was from an ingot or ore? It doesn't say which specifically.

Thanks again-Mike

Here is my last reply from Skyline Assayers:

The Hawley & Hawley records prior to 1997 are gone. My best guess is as you suspect,that the assay results relate to a copper 'bar' or ingot.

Hope this helps

So Alex, do you have any other assays you are willing to share? Now, those of you who think that this proves Doc Noss was trying to pawn off a bunch of hoaxed copper ingots are absolutely mistaken. If Doc had them made as part of a hoax, why would he have them assayed? He would have known going in what the assay would say.



Thanks-Mike

 

[Peerless67]

Now, those of you who think that this proves Doc Noss was trying to pawn off a bunch of hoaxed copper ingots are absolutely mistaken. If Doc had them made as part of a hoax, why would he have them assayed? He would have known going in what the assay would say.

Thats a pretty broad statement Mike, considering we do not know 100% whether it was an assay of ore or an ingot. And even if we knew 100% which is was, we still would not know if it was an assay of one of Docs ingots. His name being on the assay does not mean that it was.
And even your email response does not give a conclusive answer.

The Hawley & Hawley records prior to 1997 are gone. My best guess is as you suspect,that the assay results relate to a copper 'bar' or ingot.

 

[Peerless67]

Below is an assay from 1939

Actually that should read "below is a copy of an assay from 1939, that was obtained in 1952"

The original assay was done by B. D. Lampros, the COPY has not been signed by the original assayer.
Worth noting is that today when we say "copy" we are usually refering to a photocopy, whereas the assay posted is a "man made" copy, in as much as it has been retyped some 13 years after the original assay was done.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Listening, go go one legged gallum, peerless and springfield. Incidentally Golly, how is that leg coming along? Going to be as good as new?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

..... So Alex, do you have any other assays you are willing to share? Now, those of you who think that this proves Doc Noss was trying to pawn off a bunch of hoaxed copper ingots are absolutely mistaken. If Doc had them made as part of a hoax, why would he have them assayed? He would have known going in what the assay would say.

Thanks-Mike

Whether exceedingly rich copper ore (much less likely, say 10% odds), or a rough-smelted bullion bar (much more likely, say 90% odds, IMO), the assay describes a copper specimen. Why a '1952 copy' from a '1939 assay' is presented is problematical because, as with all things 'Noss', red flags abound. For arguement's sake, let's assume the assay's provenence is bulletproof, i.e. it's a copper bar presented to the assayer by Noss in 1939.

Here is a quite plausible explanation: Noss came into possession of metal ingots; he had one assayed and determined it was copper; he represented them as gold ingots to another unwary party. Considering Noss' reputation, this scenario can't be excluded from his general modus operendi.

Noss is the shadiest of shady characters. We will probably never be satisfied about our understanding of him or his activities no matter how many books come out. Many of the old-timers in Truth or Consequences, NM, can (or could, before they died) tell you about his activities in the Caballos. A few folks can tell you about his time in the state pen. A lot has been published about Victorio Peak, much of it by family members who obviously have reasons to put their own spin on things. They knew him in Las Cruces, NM, too - those folks are mostly passed on now. Unfortunately, the farther we get from the 1930's and '40's, the less reliable the explanations become. As Peerless observed concerning the assay - it doesn't prove anything and can be spun as desired - just more circumstantial evidence.

To me, Noss is merely another player in another venue that pervaded the 1930's all over the American Southwest following the Gold Confiscation Act of 1933. Peerless, you are likely correct that 'Victorio Peak' and '17 tons' are somehow connected, as are many more that not in the arena of public knowledge. How they tie together and who did the tieing are unexplaned at this time and likely will remain so. Holmdahl's actions on this stage is quite intriguing too - I hope it's not too late to find out more about him.

 

[Connecticut Sam]

I believe the story and that some of the treasure was found by Noss, and then the military went there and dug up all the treasures. I like to know the latest news.

 

[gollum]

Gary,

While as I stated, we can't say with 100% certainty whether it was ore or ingot that was assayed, I can say with a GREAT degree of certainty that it was a bar not ore.

1. It would have had to have been EXCEEDINGLY rich copper ore.

2. There is NO mention in any version of the story I have seen of Doc's finding raw ore. Only bars and antiques.

3. The "best guess" of a professional assayer will be good enough for me to hang my hat on until something more substantial comes along.

Spring,

Noss is far from the shadiest of characters. I admit he did have some shadiness about him, but who doesn't? LOL My friend in Tucson that found the 82 pounds of gold bars would be considered by Uncle Sam to be a thief and tax cheat. Its all about perspective.

You also have to put yourself in the boots of a mostly American Indian in New Mexico in the 1930s. There are a lot of back stories to this that may never see the light of day. Between the books that are written and being written on the subject, I think much of what is known will become public knowledge within the next year or two. There is a big picture to this story that you have to keep in mind and not get tunnel vision regarding one bar. Look at the bars being held by Letha Noss in that picture. They have neat little assayer's bites in them. That means that each one was assayed. Look at Benny Samaniego that was given the armor and gold. No copper there. We have both the sworn testimonies and polygraph results of Berlette and Fiege regarding what they found at VP. The sworn testimony of Capt. Orby Swanner who was an MP at WSMR and testified that he personally witnessed the military remove large trucks of gold from VP. When the ONFP (Ova Noss Family Partnership) went into the Peak in the 1990s, Capt. Swanner's name and date was burned into one of the lower passages. There were also many things taken out of the Peak of an historical nature whose background can be verified.

............... and a lot more.

I recommend actually looking at a copper ingot. It can in no way be confused with a gold one. I have seen and held both. No comparison.

Best-Mike

 

[Connecticut Sam]

The FBI have to investigate if the military took out the treasure and what they did with it. I am shock about this.

 

[gollum]

Danny,

That was all done in the early 1960s and 1970s. Since there is 99% certainly nothing left under VP but a bunch of empty caves, the FBI would have no real reason to search. The government has also always operated under the story that Doc Noss was a fraud and there was no treasure there.

Gary and Spring,

While I have always been a firm believer in the fact that this treasure was authentic, I can tell you that I just finished watching a home made videotape interview with Tony Jolley. For those that don't know who he is, he was the Cowboy that helped Doc rebury 110 gold bars in several locations the night before he was shot and killed by Ryan. Not only does Jolley state without any doubt that it was gold they reburied, he came back 12 years later and found one of the caches of ten bars with a metal detector. He had them assayed and sold them for a very good amount of money (he didn't go into specifics about just how much).

............ and before you ask, sorry. I am not at liberty to share the video. Some of the information on it regards an ongoing project (as well as a book).

Best-Mike

 

[Peerless67]

Gary,

While as I stated, we can't say with 100% certainty whether it was ore or ingot that was assayed, I can say with a GREAT degree of certainty that it was a bar not ore.

1. It would have had to have been EXCEEDINGLY rich copper ore.

2. There is NO mention in any version of the story I have seen of Doc's finding raw ore. Only bars and antiques.

3. The "best guess" of a professional assayer will be good enough for me to hang my hat on until something more substantial comes along.

Mike try not to get hung up on the smaller details of my posts, for me the telling factor is that the assay is a COPY made in 1952 of a 1939 assay. It is also signed by someone other than the original assayer. As Springfield said, it is another red flag.


I do have a question, do you believe as I do that victorio peak when he posted the quote below with the picture of the crown/tiara, was trying to suggest that the picture was that of the crown recovered from VP ? It does seem that way to me.

But the biggest item that was removed from the cave is a crown. Ova Noss gave a video interview in 1977 where she speaks in some detail about it. As she stated, it had 250 diamonds and one pigeon blood ruby in the center. They put it in a paper bag and then weighed it on meat scales in a grocery store in El Paso. It weighed in at 6 pounds and made of gold. This crown was placed in a foot locker along with other items removed and Doc and a friend stashed it in the Caballos somewhere. Now, I have a photo that has been in the Noss family archives since the 1940's. No living member of the family could validate if the photo was taken by Doc or if it came out of a book.

 

[Springfield]

..... You also have to put yourself in the boots of a mostly American Indian in New Mexico in the 1930s. There are a lot of back stories to this that may never see the light of day. Between the books that are written and being written on the subject, I think much of what is known will become public knowledge within the next year or two. There is a big picture to this story that you have to keep in mind and not get tunnel vision regarding one bar. Look at the bars being held by Letha Noss in that picture. They have neat little assayer's bites in them. That means that each one was assayed. Look at Benny Samaniego that was given the armor and gold. No copper there. We have both the sworn testimonies and polygraph results of Berlette and Fiege regarding what they found at VP. The sworn testimony of Capt. Orby Swanner who was an MP at WSMR and testified that he personally witnessed the military remove large trucks of gold from VP. When the ONFP (Ova Noss Family Partnership) went into the Peak in the 1990s, Capt. Swanner's name and date was burned into one of the lower passages. There were also many things taken out of the Peak of an historical nature whose background can be verified.

............... and a lot more.

I recommend actually looking at a copper ingot. It can in no way be confused with a gold one. I have seen and held both. No comparison.

Best-Mike

Nothing new here - it's all in the books. You're presenting 'evidence' and 'testimony that is 50-75 years old and presumably anticipating more of the same from new bookwriters, then apparently wanting to use it all to 'validate' the Noss story. It's a natural thing, trying to rationalize a popular mystery. It's why the books are written and sold. We need to make things tidy, and if everybody's on board, well, then, since it's 'accepted', it's 'true'. Except for one thing: things are seldom, if ever, what they seem.

From what I've seen in the public domain and from personal private conversations with old players and their survivors of this particular treasure tale, we can accept that there was a substantial amount of gold bullion removed from Soledad (Victorio) Peak by the military. Where it came from and who the original owners are is still unexplained. Milton Noss' involvement remains highly suspect, controversial and unexplained. I wouldn't bet on any of his testimony and neither should his family. I can assure you that Noss and all the other sources that you consider '100%-ers' are not. People who have found, or claim to have found themselves with somebody else's gold in their possession lie to everybody - their families, their friends, their investors (even you Mike).

Regarding copper ingots. I've seen ingots of all the metals, from pure metals to any number of alloy combinations. I've also seen the extreme gullibility and lack of judgement displayed by greedy fools who have been conned. Could a sucker be fooled by an accomplished scammer selling a metal ingot that is not gold? Absolutely. People are very, very easy to convince about things that are not as they seem, especially when they want to believe.

There is an answer to the Soledad mystery and I'm sure someone alive knows the answer. I don't believe the truth will ever be available from Amazon.com. Will I buy the book? Possibly. I like to gather info on a bigger picture than just the subject at hand. Remember not to focus on the shiny baubles in the magician's hands (or the pretty girl next to him) - try to see up his sleeves and behind his back to figure out the trick. You're a damned good researcher Mike - remember to leave all possibilities on the table; the shiniest one is not always the best one.

 

[gollum]

Garry,

It looks like you are trying to read something into that quote that isn't there. Also, please include the entire quote, because the last two sentences should answer your question. I have reread it several times and get the same meaning each time:

Now, I have a photo that has been in the Noss family archives since the 1940's. No living member of the family could validate if the photo was taken by Doc or if it came out of a book. This is unclear but it does match her story. If you look at old paintings of Carlota this crown doesn't seem to match.

1. There is a B&W picture that Alex got from the Noss Family that they have had since the 1940s.
2. Nobody alive can tell whether the pic came from a book or was taken by Doc.
3. It appears to match the description given of the tiara that was removed from a chest marked "Carlota"
4. The last sentence shows that while stating it as a possibility, he has questions about it.
5. So, to answer your question, I believe that Alex was told by the family that this tiara matches the one taken from the peak. I don't take away that he is posting the picture as a "fact" or as "evidence" of the veracity of the story.

While I have not spent any great deal of time attempting to research the tiara, I will say that at a cursory glance it looks French. Other than that, I have no idea of the manufacture. I will say that Carlota had a new set of Crown Jewels made to go with her new posting as wife of Maximillian Emperor of Mexico. If the tiara was inherited by her, the only way to prove it was possibly hers would be to research her immediate female family members' old paintings to see if that particular tiara could be found. That, or delve into old books on crown jewels and see if there is possibly a match to the picture.

Mike

 

[gollum]

..... You also have to put yourself in the boots of a mostly American Indian in New Mexico in the 1930s. There are a lot of back stories to this that may never see the light of day. Between the books that are written and being written on the subject, I think much of what is known will become public knowledge within the next year or two. There is a big picture to this story that you have to keep in mind and not get tunnel vision regarding one bar. Look at the bars being held by Letha Noss in that picture. They have neat little assayer's bites in them. That means that each one was assayed. Look at Benny Samaniego that was given the armor and gold. No copper there. We have both the sworn testimonies and polygraph results of Berlette and Fiege regarding what they found at VP. The sworn testimony of Capt. Orby Swanner who was an MP at WSMR and testified that he personally witnessed the military remove large trucks of gold from VP. When the ONFP (Ova Noss Family Partnership) went into the Peak in the 1990s, Capt. Swanner's name and date was burned into one of the lower passages. There were also many things taken out of the Peak of an historical nature whose background can be verified.

............... and a lot more.

I recommend actually looking at a copper ingot. It can in no way be confused with a gold one. I have seen and held both. No comparison.

Best-Mike

Nothing new here - it's all in the books. You're presenting 'evidence' and 'testimony that is 50-75 years old and presumably anticipating more of the same from new bookwriters, then apparently wanting to use it all to 'validate' the Noss story. It's a natural thing, trying to rationalize a popular mystery. It's why the books are written and sold. We need to make things tidy, and if everybody's on board, well, then, since it's 'accepted', it's 'true'. Except for one thing: things are seldom, if ever, what they seem.

From what I've seen in the public domain and from personal private conversations with old players and their survivors of this particular treasure tale, we can accept that there was a substantial amount of gold bullion removed from Soledad (Victorio) Peak by the military. Where it came from and who the original owners are is still unexplained. Milton Noss' involvement remains highly suspect, controversial and unexplained. I wouldn't bet on any of his testimony and neither should his family. I can assure you that Noss and all the other sources that you consider '100%-ers' are not. People who have found, or claim to have found themselves with somebody else's gold in their possession lie to everybody - their families, their friends, their investors (even you Mike).

Regarding copper ingots. I've seen ingots of all the metals, from pure metals to any number of alloy combinations. I've also seen the extreme gullibility and lack of judgement displayed by greedy fools who have been conned. Could a sucker be fooled by an accomplished scammer selling a metal ingot that is not gold? Absolutely. People are very, very easy to convince about things that are not as they seem, especially when they want to believe.

There is an answer to the Soledad mystery and I'm sure someone alive knows the answer. I don't believe the truth will ever be available from Amazon.com. Will I buy the book? Possibly. I like to gather info on a bigger picture than just the subject at hand. Remember not to focus on the shiny baubles in the magician's hands (or the pretty girl next to him) - try to see up his sleeves and behind his back to figure out the trick. You're a damned good researcher Mike - remember to leave all possibilities on the table; the shiniest one is not always the best one.

Spring,

My memory may be a bit hazy, but maybe you can show me where I ever said I thought Doc Noss (or anyone else associated with the VP Story) was a "100%-er?"

Since you seem firmly entrenched in the "I Hate Doc Noss Fan Club" LOL, I fail to see how you can believe there was any treasure there? Since Doc and his family are the only original sources for the story, and the government ABSOLUTELY denies that any gold ever existed there ........? Berlette and Fiege would have never gone treasure hunting at the Peak if Doc's Story hadn't been widely publicized previously. If you don't believe anything about Doc's Story, then how can you believe there was any gold there?

And as I have stated more times than I can count, "Don't listen to what a person says, look at their actions." Actions do speak louder than words. If everything Doc had was the result of a fraud or hoax, then why in God's Name would he and his entire family have fought with the government until their dying days? Why file lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit over a seventy year period? Doesn't make sense if there was no substance to their story. And if the gold was from another location, why file all the lawsuits trying to gain access to VP? Doesn't make a bit of sense either. If the story was BS, then how could Tony Jolley have gone back twelve years after helping Doc rebury 110 bars and recover a cache of ten?

Regarding the story of Doc trying to defraud someone by selling them a copper ingot and saying it was gold ......... can you give me name to go with that story? I have seen it before, but nobody has ever given the name of that poor soul? That story was even on the old WSMR Website, but again, they failed to provide a name. An unreferenced and unannotated story with no name or written evidence of any kind, and some people run with it. I don't understand.

Mike

 

[Peerless67]

Garry,

It looks like you are trying to read something into that quote that isn't there. Also, please include the entire quote, because the last two sentences should answer your question. I have reread it several times and get the same meaning each time

Mike, I worded my post carefully to get a response. You see the problem is that victorio peak is posting quotes and pictures that could fool the unwary into thinking that the picture of the tiara and the COPY of the assay are genuine pieces of VP evidence. Indeed the tiara photo is even named VPcrown.
Its just my opinion but I believe that they were deliberately posted and presented in the way they were to do exactly as I suspect...to sell books.

But just so you are clear, I do believe Noss had the mexican/spanish relics in his possesion at some point. What I do not believe is that he had any quantity of gold at any point.

As has already been hinted at, Noss was probably trying to sell "ingots" that were not, shall we say, what he claimed they were. The probable cause of his untimely demise.

 

[Connecticut Sam]

I believe the full story. Noss found the cave and took out gold bars and other items. Then the military came and took everything out. The treasure may had been taken, but, the military use wood planks to support the dirt. The FIB should be able to find the wood planks. As stated before, the FBI have to investigate to what happy to the treasures that the military took. I live in Bridgeport, Connecticut so I won't be visit the site. I enjoy the pictures.