Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

[Springfield]

Spring,

My memory may be a bit hazy, but maybe you can show me where I ever said I thought Doc Noss (or anyone else associated with the VP Story) was a "100%-er?"

Since you seem firmly entrenched in the "I Hate Doc Noss Fan Club" LOL, I fail to see how you can believe there was any treasure there? Since Doc and his family are the only original sources for the story, and the government ABSOLUTELY denies that any gold ever existed there ........? Berlette and Fiege would have never gone treasure hunting at the Peak if Doc's Story hadn't been widely publicized previously. If you don't believe anything about Doc's Story, then how can you believe there was any gold there?

And as I have stated more times than I can count, "Don't listen to what a person says, look at their actions." Actions do speak louder than words. If everything Doc had was the result of a fraud or hoax, then why in God's Name would he and his entire family have fought with the government until their dying days? Why file lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit over a seventy year period? Doesn't make sense if there was no substance to their story. And if the gold was from another location, why file all the lawsuits trying to gain access to VP? Doesn't make a bit of sense either. If the story was BS, then how could Tony Jolley have gone back twelve years after helping Doc rebury 110 bars and recover a cache of ten?

Regarding the story of Doc trying to defraud someone by selling them a copper ingot and saying it was gold ......... can you give me name to go with that story? I have seen it before, but nobody has ever given the name of that poor soul? That story was even on the old WSMR Website, but again, they failed to provide a name. An unreferenced and unannotated story with no name or written evidence of any kind, and some people run with it. I don't understand.

Mike

Slow down, Hoss. Let me set the record straight. I'm a firm believer in the many tons of gold in New Mexico that came into the public eye in the 1930's, and also the many tons that did not come into the public eye. Where it all came from, who owns it and how the sites are connected are my main focus. I don't claim to know the answers, although I have a few ideas.

I fully acknowledge that Milton Noss was a player on this larger stage and at Soledad peak in Hembrillo Basin in particular. No question. My contention is that we cannot rely on Noss to fully explain the circumstances of his discovery, because IMHO, he is not a credible witness because of his primary role in the mystery. People involved in these situations are liars to everyone. They have to be. Nothing personal against Noss or anyone else in similar situation, it simply comes with the territory. Maybe Nova knew the truth of things, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

As far as Willy Daught, Tony Jolley, later members of the Noss clan, etc., their alleged experiences, some of which are very interesting, do not answer the question at hand - Noss' true part in the story. The lawsuits, good intentions, keepsakes, personal beliefs, etc., are also irrelevent. Interesting, intriguing, but too many degrees of separation from the seminal events.

Regarding the copper bar - all I said was that the scenario was plausible, based on my understanding of Noss' history. Like I've said many times - unless you were there yourself, you must leave all possibilities on the table.

 

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[Springfield]

Spring,

My memory may be a bit hazy, but maybe you can show me where I ever said I thought Doc Noss (or anyone else associated with the VP Story) was a "100%-er?"

Since you seem firmly entrenched in the "I Hate Doc Noss Fan Club" LOL, I fail to see how you can believe there was any treasure there? Since Doc and his family are the only original sources for the story, and the government ABSOLUTELY denies that any gold ever existed there ........? Berlette and Fiege would have never gone treasure hunting at the Peak if Doc's Story hadn't been widely publicized previously. If you don't believe anything about Doc's Story, then how can you believe there was any gold there?

And as I have stated more times than I can count, "Don't listen to what a person says, look at their actions." Actions do speak louder than words. If everything Doc had was the result of a fraud or hoax, then why in God's Name would he and his entire family have fought with the government until their dying days? Why file lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit over a seventy year period? Doesn't make sense if there was no substance to their story. And if the gold was from another location, why file all the lawsuits trying to gain access to VP? Doesn't make a bit of sense either. If the story was BS, then how could Tony Jolley have gone back twelve years after helping Doc rebury 110 bars and recover a cache of ten?

Regarding the story of Doc trying to defraud someone by selling them a copper ingot and saying it was gold ......... can you give me name to go with that story? I have seen it before, but nobody has ever given the name of that poor soul? That story was even on the old WSMR Website, but again, they failed to provide a name. An unreferenced and unannotated story with no name or written evidence of any kind, and some people run with it. I don't understand.

Mike

Slow down, Hoss. Let me set the record straight. I'm a firm believer in the many tons of gold in New Mexico that came into the public eye in the 1930's, and also the many tons that did not come into the public eye. Where it all came from, who owns it and how the sites are connected are my main focus. I don't claim to know the answers, although I have a few ideas.

I fully acknowledge that Milton Noss was a player on this larger stage and at Soledad peak in Hembrillo Basin in particular. No question. My contention is that we cannot rely on Noss to fully explain the circumstances of his discovery, because IMHO, he is not a credible witness because of his primary role in the mystery. People involved in these situations are liars to everyone. They have to be. Nothing personal against Noss or anyone else in similar situation, it simply comes with the territory. Maybe Nova knew the truth of things, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

As far as Willy Daught, Tony Jolley, later members of the Noss clan, etc. - their alleged experiences, some of which are very interesting, do not answer the question at hand - Noss' true part in the story. The lawsuits, good intentions, keepsakes, personal beliefs, etc., are also irrelevent. Interesting, intriguing, but too many degrees of separation from the seminal events.

Regarding the copper bar - all I said was that the scenario was plausible, based on my understanding of Noss' history. Like I've said many times - unless you were there yourself, you must leave all possibilities on the table.

 

[gollum]

Spring,

I never said it wasn't possible that Doc may have tried to pawn off a copper bar as gold, but I do believe it was unlikely. If there was at least a name of one person it happened to, I might give it some more credibility. As it stands, to me it is just a fable by someone wishing to cast aspertions at Noss. No name, no newspaper clipping, no documentation of any kind?

What happened to Doc is very well known. The day before he was supposed to show his "partner" Ryan where the 110 bars of gold were, so he could sell them and then split the profits, Noss either was told or had a strong feeling that Ryan was going to take the money and split. He then proceeded to round up Tony Jolley, dig up all the 110 bars and rebury them in caches of ten or twenty. The next day, Noss told Ryan about rehiding the bars. He and Ryan got into a fight, Noss went to his truck where Ryan knew he kept a pistol in his glove box (but Noss was shot in front of the truck on his way to the driver's side ? ? ?). Ryan told the court that he feared Doc was going for his pistol and shot him. Since Ryan was a respected member of the community (he owned a lead mine), the court took him at his word and found him innocent by Self Defense. Ryan never disputed the fact that the gold was real. If the fight would have been because of fake gold bars, I believe that Ryan would have said so to make Noss look even worse in the court's eyes.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Spring,

I never said it wasn't possible that Doc may have tried to pawn off a copper bar as gold, but I do believe it was unlikely. If there was at least a name of one person it happened to, I might give it some more credibility. As it stands, to me it is just a fable by someone wishing to cast aspertions at Noss. No name, no newspaper clipping, no documentation of any kind?

What happened to Doc is very well known. The day before he was supposed to show his "partner" Ryan where the 110 bars of gold were, so he could sell them and then split the profits, Noss either was told or had a strong feeling that Ryan was going to take the money and split. He then proceeded to round up Tony Jolley, dig up all the 110 bars and rebury them in caches of ten or twenty. The next day, Noss told Ryan about rehiding the bars. He and Ryan got into a fight, Noss went to his truck where Ryan knew he kept a pistol in his glove box (but Noss was shot in front of the truck on his way to the driver's side ? ? ?). Ryan told the court that he feared Doc was going for his pistol and shot him. Since Ryan was a respected member of the community (he owned a lead mine), the court took him at his word and found him innocent by Self Defense. Ryan never disputed the fact that the gold was real. If the fight would have been because of fake gold bars, I believe that Ryan would have said so to make Noss look even worse in the court's eyes.

Mike

Cast aspersions or shed light? Would a newspaper clipping prove the allegation? No, IMO. Would a filed legal complaint? No, IMO. Would a sworn statement, under oath? No, IMO. We know Ryan killed Noss. The rest is hearsay. Our beliefs are defined at the point where we can't or won't dig deeper. Since we weren't a part of it, it's all we can do.

 

[Connecticut Sam]

What happen to the treasure after the Army took it?

 

[gollum]

Spring,

I never said it wasn't possible that Doc may have tried to pawn off a copper bar as gold, but I do believe it was unlikely. If there was at least a name of one person it happened to, I might give it some more credibility. As it stands, to me it is just a fable by someone wishing to cast aspertions at Noss. No name, no newspaper clipping, no documentation of any kind?

What happened to Doc is very well known. The day before he was supposed to show his "partner" Ryan where the 110 bars of gold were, so he could sell them and then split the profits, Noss either was told or had a strong feeling that Ryan was going to take the money and split. He then proceeded to round up Tony Jolley, dig up all the 110 bars and rebury them in caches of ten or twenty. The next day, Noss told Ryan about rehiding the bars. He and Ryan got into a fight, Noss went to his truck where Ryan knew he kept a pistol in his glove box (but Noss was shot in front of the truck on his way to the driver's side ? ? ?). Ryan told the court that he feared Doc was going for his pistol and shot him. Since Ryan was a respected member of the community (he owned a lead mine), the court took him at his word and found him innocent by Self Defense. Ryan never disputed the fact that the gold was real. If the fight would have been because of fake gold bars, I believe that Ryan would have said so to make Noss look even worse in the court's eyes.

Mike

Cast aspersions or shed light? Would a newspaper clipping prove the allegation? No, IMO. Would a filed legal complaint? No, IMO. Would a sworn statement, under oath? No, IMO. We know Ryan killed Noss. The rest is hearsay. Our beliefs are defined at the point where we can't or won't dig deeper. Since we weren't a part of it, it's all we can do.

NO, I mean cast aspersions. In order to shed light, one has to present facts or a story that at least has the barest of supporting evidence (a name, a newspaper clipping, a court document). With absolutely nothing to back up the story, it would easily fall under the definitions of both Defamation and Libel (since the story is written in a public forum). The WSMR telling that story with ABSOLUTELY no corroborating evidence, is the exact same thing as if I said (and this is only an example that I am in no way stating as either fact or even innuendo) Springfield has been known to steal asparagus and eat children. If I didn't know you personally, and I trusted the source, I might be inclined to think that you were an asparagus thief and child eater! LOL If I could not back up my allegations against you, you would have excellent grounds for a lawsuit against me. Same with Noss, except he is dead.

Now, that being said, I am in no way vouching for Noss' veracity. I did not know the man, and don't personally know anyone that can vouch for his disposition one way or the other. He could very well be the biggest liar and cheat this side of the Mississippi. I just don't like it when I see unsupported allegations being made against ANYBODY.

A newspaper clipping, court document, or ANYTHING that would give the story ANY basis in fact would mean worlds to ME. Why would you ever refer to a story that has absolutely ZERO substance? I mean, you may have some information that I don't, so I don't judge.

In the Tony Jolley Interview he says that he knew Doc somewhat but not well, and from what he knew, he said that Doc was a cautious man, and that he liked Doc. He had his reasons for disliking Doc, but didn't say anything about him being dishonest or a liar. After what happened between Doc and Jolley that night, if there was something negative to be said, Jolley would have had no reason not to say so.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

....The WSMR telling that story with ABSOLUTELY no corroborating evidence, is the exact same thing as if I said (and this is only an example that I am in no way stating as either fact or even innuendo) Springfield has been known to steal asparagus and eat children. If I didn't know you personally, and I trusted the source, I might be inclined to think that you were an asparagus thief and child eater! LOL If I could not back up my allegations against you, you would have excellent grounds for a lawsuit against me. ...

You're playing into my hand. What if you did know me personally, vouched for my integrity, didn't trust the source and dismissed the allegation, but I actually was guilty of the charges? I know, it's an exaggerated example, but it just points out the fact that we are often quite wrong in our belief of things. As I said earlier, our beliefs are formed when we don't or won't dig deeper. In most aspects of our lives, being right or wrong doesn't matter. If you are trying to establish the truth surrounding the Vic Peak enigma, skepticism reigns (i.e. all things are possible).

 

[Peerless67]

And as I have stated more times than I can count, "Don't listen to what a person says, look at their actions." Actions do speak louder than words. If everything Doc had was the result of a fraud or hoax, then why in God's Name would he and his entire family have fought with the government until their dying days? Why file lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit over a seventy year period? Doesn't make sense if there was no substance to their story. And if the gold was from another location, why file all the lawsuits trying to gain access to VP? Doesn't make a bit of sense either. If the story was BS, then how could Tony Jolley have gone back twelve years after helping Doc rebury 110 bars and recover a cache of ten?

Mike although not 70 years in the making, I believe exactly the same scenario is taking place today in New Mexico with the tesoro del alma. Why they do it ? only those involved can answer 100%, but I would suspect that generating an "investor income" may have a great deal to do with it.
I also suspect that the tesoro del alma will eventually reach the same level of coverage, with the passing of time. I wonder which president will get blamed for taking the spoils from tesoro del alma.

 

[Springfield]

And as I have stated more times than I can count, "Don't listen to what a person says, look at their actions." Actions do speak louder than words. If everything Doc had was the result of a fraud or hoax, then why in God's Name would he and his entire family have fought with the government until their dying days? Why file lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit over a seventy year period? Doesn't make sense if there was no substance to their story. And if the gold was from another location, why file all the lawsuits trying to gain access to VP? Doesn't make a bit of sense either. If the story was BS, then how could Tony Jolley have gone back twelve years after helping Doc rebury 110 bars and recover a cache of ten?

Mike although not 70 years in the making, I believe exactly the same scenario is taking place today in New Mexico with the tesoro del alma. Why they do it ? only those involved can answer 100%, but I would suspect that generating an "investor income" may have a great deal to do with it.
I also suspect that the tesoro del alma will eventually reach the same level of coverage, with the passing of time. I wonder which president will get blamed for taking the spoils from tesoro del alma.

Caveat emptor. Do your own due diligence dudes and dudettes.

 

[gollum]

Spring,

If I heard that story about you, and there was absolutely ZERO corroborating evidence (as in the Noss copper bar fraud story), I would always give you the benefit of the doubt. I have formed no opinions of Noss personally. What opinions I have are based solely on the actions of the players, evidence I have seen and heard from people I know and trust. The people I know and trust are the same as me; there are a very few people that they absolutely trust their word. If one of those few people tells me something, I can trust 100% it is gospel. If it is not, they tell me that it is an opinion, theory, or just conjecture.

Gary,

The TDA Story will most likely not be like VP. First, Nick Flemming came on TNet claiming to have also found the 17 Tons gold on the Navajo Reservation, and US Steel Co. is still sitting on it waiting for the price of gold to go up, blah, blah, blah. Then, they have the DORE BAR RAFFLE. He collects money for raffling this bar that is only seen in a picture (I don't know anybody that has actually seen it in person, but I don't keep too close a track of TDA). I also haven't seen any assays on the bar to say that it is definitely not just melted jewelry. He has to refund the money. He used some sort of device that shows not only the cave, but a mass of metal in it. He had eight bars in a safety deposit box that the government somehow stole.

I don't think Nick Flemming's part in the Caballo Mts. Treasure will ever get to the level of Doc Noss.

Now, I will say that there is something there in the Caballos. There was a six foot tall iron cross found in a cave in those mountains. Did Flemming find it? Based on what I have seen so far ....... nope. What I would like to see for TDA are sonic surveys, and GPR Surveys. If the equipment he used to find the cave is accurate, he could just put a 2" drill over the spot and drill until he hit the stack of bars, then bring up the bit with all the gold stuck in it (or drop a camera into the hole and film the stacks of bars. This was done at VP).

Doc Noss never solicited people to invest in his project. He only tried to sell off some of his gold bars, and got killed in the process. Based on what came after, there is a lot of weight to Doc's Story. More weight to Doc's Story was when the ONFP was granted access to the Peak in the 1990s and when the miners finally got into one of the tunnels and were showered with bones (remember Doc's Story about the skeletons tied to the post in the cave).

Mike

 

[Martian Monster]

What happen to the treasure after the Army took it?

C. Danny-----the answer to your question is : Read it in vol 2 of the new book when It comes out, which is supposed to be imminent---------------Martian Monster

 

[Connecticut Sam]

When are these books coming out and what is the prices?

 

[Springfield]

..... Now, that being said, I am in no way vouching for Noss' veracity. I did not know the man, and don't personally know anyone that can vouch for his disposition one way or the other. He could very well be the biggest liar and cheat this side of the Mississippi. I just don't like it when I see unsupported allegations being made against ANYBODY.

A newspaper clipping, court document, or ANYTHING that would give the story ANY basis in fact would mean worlds to ME. Why would you ever refer to a story that has absolutely ZERO substance? I mean, you may have some information that I don't, so I don't judge......

Well, I wasn't going to spend the time searching, but the wind was howling here today and I was stuck inside, so I dug out a couple books and found the following 'documentation' for you. It appeared in the El Paso Herald Post, August 23, 1973, in a story, "Test Proves Doc Noss's Metal Bars Pure Brass" by Howard Bryan, and cited in 100 Tons of Gold, by David Leon Chandler, pages 127-128.

I'm not saying I believe or disbelieve the account, but here it is, Mike - names, dates, places, in a book, from a newspaper article.

.... Despite the gaudy dimensions of Noss's story, Gordon Herkenhoff, consulting engineer for the land office, bought it -
but not quite all the way.

He told Doc he would be interested in investing some money to help excavate the caverns - but only if Doc would produce some gold
bars for his inspection.

Noss said he would produce them. The men separated.

Noss had no gold bars. He had sold the last of them in 1939 to finance the excavation of the cave-in. And when his money ran out in
1941, he began taking in partners. These included the stockholders of the Cheyenne Mining Company, the men Doc took on walks and
then casually produced before their eyes two "gold" bars.

Over the years, Doc had kept the bars in his suitcase. They were old friends. Warriors all. Survivors of successful combat. Now, at
Herkenhoff's request, Doc brought them once again into the field.

Herkenhoff remembers that a few days later "Doc called me and asked me to meet him at the Park Hotel in Socorro. He told me he
would then show me some gold bars." He arrived at the hotel to find Doc in the cafe and holding two golden bars wrapped in newspaper.

"He was gloriously drunk," Herkenhoff recalls. "He kept talking all the time and occasionally handed me the bars so I could feel their
weight, each time taking them back and wrapping them again."

One of Noss's cowboy friends came by at that moment. Noss staggered to his feet, held a brief conversation, and the two wobbled off
to find a bottle of whiskey. Noss left the wrapped bars behind.

Herkenhoff grabbed one of them and rushed over to the New Mexico School of Mines, located about six blocks away. He took the bar
to the laboratory and tested it himself.

"It was pure brass. Mostly copper with some iron," said Herkenhoff.....

 

[Connecticut Sam]

I believe the story about treasures found by Noss, and then the Army went in, and took all out.

 

[gollum]

FINALLY! LOL Thank You.

I don't have 100 Tons of Gold, but at least this gives some aspects of the anti-Noss stories some meat.

Unfortunately, Gordon Herkenhoff has passed away, and is not available to verify or deny the story. All of Herkenhoff's brothers and sister are gone as well.

See, I put no stock in any story that includes no facts. There needs to be at least some facts to research for any story to get some traction.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Okay, I have been running my copy of the 1.5 hour Tony Jolley Interview through Adobe Premiere Pro, and have started cutting out some snippets that don't have any effect on any projects or confidences. I have also received permission to post some of those snippets.

This first one is about four minutes long and is the story of Jolley and his recovering ten of the 110 gold bars.

Enjoy-Mike




Like I said before, just because something hasn't been made public for everyone to see, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Pictures of the large gold bars from VP, sawing a large bar from VP in half with a hacksaw, Travis Tumlinson with the Stone Maps after he found them, Springfield stealing asparagus, Hitler fondling young boys, etc. HAHAHA

 

[Springfield]

.... This first one is about four minutes long and is the story of Jolley and his recovering ten of the 110 gold bars .....

Plausible and believable. Having known a gentleman, long deceased, who was in a similar pickle long ago, I find it interesting that there was, after many years, still an uneasiness, almost a fear or guilt, detectable in both their voices and body language.

 

[Connecticut Sam]

Who did Jolley sold the bars to?

 

[Old Bookaroo]

"Father Kino Silver Bars"

Regarding Post #3, above. There is a photo of a small silver "bar" about 2 1/4" x 2 1/4" that is identical to the last one shown in Charles J. Pozer, S.J.'s Desert Magazine article "Jesuit Gold" (August 1962).

The caption for the photo states "Counterfeit Silver. These pieces of 'Jesuit-five,' reproduced in actual size, have appearances similar to others that have cropped-up literally from Maine to Mexico. They are unquestionably silver (40 to 60 per cent) just as they are unquestionably counterfeit..."

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[gollum]

Bookaroo,

While Father Polzer SJ was the preeminent historian of all things Jesuit in Northern New Spain, you have to keep several things in mind about the man and his job. He never saw one single bar of silver or gold that he would even consider as being authentic. Reason is...... since he "knew" the Jesuits (of which he was one) never had any treasures, then any bars associated with his Order "must" be fake.

Whether it was the job assigned to him, or if he took it upon himself, he made it his sole work to get Father Eusebio Kino SJ canonized. Any admission that the Jesuits (including Father Kino) were participating in illegal activities (mining or treasure hoarding) would have put that canonization in grave jeopardy. It is funny though, how when Father Polzer was told by a close friend of his that the lost Tayopa Mine was found, he and his friend immediately flew to Mexico and attempted to claim the mine for the Church (even though he himself had been the single most vociferous opponent of Jesuit mining and treasures).

Father Polzer SJ was not a metalurgist, a numismatist, nor an expert on mining. What would be necessary to establish whether a given bar was authentic or not is a test of all the elements in said bar. See, different methods of refining and smelting over the years rendered bars that were different in nature. Tests can be conducted to determine what technique was used to refine the bar and a date range could be estimated for it. Polzer never had any of this done.

Mike