Undiscovered treasure galleons

[Mackaydon]

Pan:
We excavated on the unoccupied island of Swan and got down to between 15 and 20 feet before hitting a one inch layer of calcite. And wreck material did break the sea surface on the north side of Little Swan nearest Big Swan, but it is modern.
Don........

 

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[Vox veritas]

I would like to explain to me why, in a topographic map of Swan Islands is marked a mine (with pick and shovel crossed) on the Big Island as image on page 102 of my book. Mine of what?

 

[Mackaydon]

VV:
My guess: Guano; it has that history. Notwithstanding, today I believe the islands are deemed a Wildlife Habitat. Then (when I was there) there was the Honduran Navy presence on the far west side and the US government well represented on the balance of the island--not for the public. Little Swan was uninhabited.
Don.......

 

[ivan salis]

needless to say --spain does not want to go to court in south america about "spanish" shipwrecks full of gold and silver got from south american mines by "forced slave labor" -- gold and silver they got from those countries using the natives they found there as forced slave labor * to mine and refine said gold and silver --

todays courts might rule that "all the gold and silver taken from these countries" belongs to those countries NOT SPAIN -- much like way the NAZI'S WERE THE MILITARY CONTROLLERS OF FRANCE DURING WW2 BUT THE WAR BOOTY "ITEMS" OF VALUE THEY STOLE FROM FRANCE AS THEY LEFT FRANCE ---- WERE LATER "RETURNED" TO FRANCE . --- IN MUCH THE SAME WAY --THE SOUTH AMERICAN COUNTRIES COULD PRESS A CLAIM AGAINST SPAIN -- spain does not want to open that can of international "legal" worms --believe me.

 

[Vox veritas]

needless to say --spain does not want to go to court in south america about "spanish" shipwrecks full of gold and silver got from south american mines by "forced slave labor" -- gold and silver they got from those countries using the natives they found there as forced slave labor * to mine and refine said gold and silver --

todays courts might rule that "all the gold and silver taken from these countries" belongs to those countries NOT SPAIN -- much like way the NAZI'S WERE THE MILITARY CONTROLLERS OF FRANCE DURING WW2 BUT THE WAR BOOTY "ITEMS" OF VALUE THEY STOLE FROM FRANCE AS THEY LEFT FRANCE ---- WERE LATER "RETURNED" TO FRANCE . --- IN MUCH THE SAME WAY --THE SOUTH AMERICAN COUNTRIES COULD PRESS A CLAIM AGAINST SPAIN -- spain does not want to open that can of international "legal" worms --believe me.

Ivan, there is unfortunately a "legal" difference between Nazi Germany and the fourteenth-century Catholic Spain. Germany illegally invaded Europe, Spain, England and Portugal, was sovereign for and with legal possession of the land. In other words, the colonies were overseas territories. Like it or not.

 

[ivan salis]

vox a "honest" look back of spainish "colonial times" is in order *

those native south american countries (areas) had their own leaders and were taken by force of arms * -- against the natives will (so was "america" for the most part as well)

--the "locals" did not just say -- please make us into your "forced slave labor" to die mining and refining gold and silver to make yourselves rich -- there was nothing much the "locals" could do about it back then --but today is a differant era. -- and todays courts might take a differant view of things.

just because the "pope" said it was ok to in the 1400's makes it "legit" to do ? the church allowed for the "killing" of jews and muslims in the 1400's too -- bet that would not legally "fly" today --and you can bet the native indain populations of those areas --would not agree with that it was "legal" for the "pope" to give their lands away ---

you can bet hitler said it was "legal " to do what he did as well -- the only "real" differance --hitler lost his "power grab" rapidly --it took spain a long, long time to finally be driven out of its "explotible" colonial countries

 

[Panfilo]

Vox, I believe you have this quote from Zacarias: "...said island is 3 leagues east to west and 5 wide and has 3 hills from which 3 streams flow to the sea with fresh water, one in a n-s direction in the north coast and the other two (streams) from east to west also in the north coast and flow to the sea, and one of them carries much gold the one from the higher hill because he who is making this deposition was there one day and washed 4 pounds of 16 ounces in little more than half a day. Walking up this stream I discovered gold minerals in veins two fingers wide and one of the frenchmen that was with me, who stated he was a miner, said it was the greatest richness he had ever seen.."

Don, you've been there, 3leagues=16 kilometers East to West, 27 kilometers North South, does this sound like Swan island?
Panfilo

 

[Salvor6]

Great Swan Is. is 3km long, E to W and 1km wide. There are no hills there.

 

[Mackaydon]

Three islands constitute the Swan Island 'chain'. Great Swan, Little Swan, and Booby Cay. Fringing reefs are developed around the perimeter of the islands with the most extensive reef growth occurring along the northern shores. Great Swan is nearly two miles in length with a maximum elevation of 68 feet. Little Swan is about 1.5 miles in length by 0.3 miles wide with a maximum elevation of 78 feet. Booby Cay is a small cay off the southwestern tip of Great Swan only about 100 yards long.
Don.......

 

[Panfilo]

Good question Vox, it was the first thing I researched when I came across the Isla Misteriosa documents some years ago. What was the geology of the island and could there have been gold "in them there hills?" Zacarias is describing a vein deposit that would be consistent with igneous or volcanic rocks and Swan is composed of sedimentary mudstones. Here is an abstract from the US geological Service:
Swan Island is a Honduran possession in the western Caribbean, located on the southeastern side of the Cayman Trench. Two sedimentary assemblages are found on the island: an older bedded sequence of mid-Tertiary age (Aquitanian or Burdigalian) and a younger sedimentary sequence of Late Pleistocene age. The older sequence is composed of a series of calcarenites, calcilutites, and siliciclastic mudstones; capping these are cliff-forming reefal carbonates of the younger sequence.
The rocks of the older bedded sequence accumulated in deep water. Sedimentation consisted of a constant rain of pyroclastic debris interrupted by the episodic introduction of upslope carbonate material by turbidity currents

Granted, Zacarias' map that Vox's published in his book does look somewhat like Swan island, this is impressive but his description is most definitely not even close. And if there was this fabulous gold mine he states, why was it never found there and we all know there was considerable guano mining in that island.
Furthermore Vox there is no natural source of fresh water in the island and as you can see there's no hills or creeks anywhere.

 

[Mackaydon]

Pan,
Nice pic of the two Swans. The naval base (such as it is/was) is just off the pic to the right. The 'hook' at the top middle is actually Little Swan, separated from Big Swan by a narrow strait. Wreckage can be found (not seen here) between the far end of the runway and Little Swan (near what appears to be a white dot in your pic).
Don.....

 

[Colombiapictures]

Nice picture.
A lot of change since we were there.
At the time the island was inhabited by 30 Honduran soldiers and 200 head of cattle.
The air strip was much, much smaller.
Signs of heavy guano mining were well visible.
An abandoned WWII US military base was being cleaned out for re-occupation.

There was supposed to have been signs of an old settlement where the two islands join, but a recent hurricane had obliterated all traces and swept away all loose soil and vegetation, opening a cut between the two islands.

We found an anchor about 1850 near the eastern tip of little Swan, in about 40 ft of water. No other wreckage.

CP

 

[Panfilo]

The picture's not mine, I've never been there, I just put it up to illustrate the fact that Zacarias description of his Misteriosa island does not agree with his declarations on record. Nor do they agree with his map. No gold veins, no mountains, no creeks, no running water...wrong dimensions, wrong measurements...

I have the highest regard for Vox Veritas' archival abilities and profound knowledge of colonial Spanish shipwrecks, a leading and proven world expert on this subject. I just happen to have spend some time researching as he has, the Misteriosa mistery and concluded, in my modest opinion, I might be wrong, that this flemish guy concocted the whole story to get out of jail and it worked for him for a while.

CP, didn't know you were in Swan island, interesting as this Misteriosa/ 1605/ Cordoba fleet story is not that old or common in folklore tales as other legends are. Or were you there for another reason?
Panfilo

 

[Chagy]

CP, didn't know you were in Swan island, interesting as this Misteriosa/ 1605/ Cordoba fleet story is not that old or common in folklore tales as other legends are. Or were you there for another reason?
Panfilo

Panfilo,

Swan island story and Zacarias map have been around near 40 years now. In the early 70s legendary THunters such as Art McKee and Burt Webber already knew about it....

 

[Mackaydon]

Pan,

I agree with your Zacarias conclusion; he'd say and create any story that would give him freedom. I also agree his islands (if they exist) are not the Swans; and, admittedly, in my research I could never match another set of islands in those waters that even came close to his description.

The 'modern' story of the 1605s has been around since the early days of SCUBA. Potter wrote about it in the 'bible', The Treasure Diver's Guide (1960). In 1993 I questioned John about the '1605s' and he replied that he included in his book everything he had found. He also mentioned: "The little I found was probably from Duro (underlined) and not very detailed."
The search continues.........
Don...

 

[Panfilo]

Chagy:
The sinking of the Cordoba fleet must have been mayor news in the civilized world, in similar dimensions as the Titanic in the early part of last century; 100 years later they’re still making movies about it. Art McKee and Burt Webber are not your ordinary run of the mill treasure hunter, sure they knew but for instance I don’t remember seeing the Swan island story in either Potter’s or Marx’s books which would account for a more common knowledge. That’s why I asked CP what ever made him go there all those years ago. Just curious.

Curiously Don, as I pointed out earlier, Duro screwed up big time on the Cordoba fleet, having them sinking near Venezuela is a total disregard to historical evidence, no excuse here. Amazing for such a dedicated researcher who did such a magnificent job. Now Don, islands do disappear, not very often but they do. You surely know about Misteriosa bank…interesting coincidence in names.

On another matter, yet of the same origin, now that CP has brought this subject here, what do you gentlemen know about the 1606 sinking of the returning fleet off the Florida keys. “Three other ships attached to the General Luis Fernandez de Cordoba Tierra Firme armada sank soon afterward.” (Potter page 263) I’m thinking about Salvor6 account of the 1606 Bahamas wreck, another coincidence.
Panfilo

 

[Mackaydon]

Panfilo,
Based on that very fact that lands do sometime become submerged we did travel to the Misteriosa bank with the thought of not locating Zac's islands but finding wrecks in those shallows, which area may have been in the relative recent past above sea level.
Don.......

 

[Chagy]

Not sure what Duro’s was smoking but in the same page he listed the wrecks 3 times in 3 different yeas….Here it is word by word.

1604- Cuatro galeones de la flota de Luis de Cordoba en el bajo de la Serranilla

1605- Un navio de aviso de la flota de Juan Gutierrez de Garibay sobre la isla de Santo Domingo.

Otro en el canal viejo de Bahama

La nao “Trinidad” de la flota de D. Francisco del Corral en las inmediaciones de la Havana; escapo alguna gente.

Cuatro galeones de la armada de Luis de Cordoba en la costa de Cumana, cerca de la isla Santa Margarita.

1606- Cuatro naos de las flotas unidas de NE y TF con otros tantos millones y el general D. Luis de Cordoba.

 

[Vox veritas]

My friends,
I tell the story of Zechariah as comes in official documents. It may be true or not. But Zacarias, while he was imprisoned, draw the island in a way, and when I was free as it really is. In 1621 he was free, but continued to insist on Treasure Island. Undoubtedly he knew well, Bermuda, Providencia, San Andres and Swan islands. In any given a detailed description.
Another possibility is that he knew to be a different treasure island and keep the secret until the last moment.
Amazing story!

 

[Panfilo]

Vox, interesting to know your thoughts on the 1606 Bahamas channel wrecks that are quoted as having belonged to the Cordoba fleet. As the San Gregorio, the Rosario and the San Martin which headed initially to Jamaica made it back to Spain and later the San Cristobal did indeed travel from Cartagena to Spain, which ships do you think they are referring to?
Panfilo