Undiscovered treasure galleons

[Colombiapictures]

CP,
As for me, I content, with the exception of the 'French connection' mentioned above, to believe the remaining "1605s" sank at sea.
Don.........

The sinking at sea hypothesis can not easily be discarded. There are several facts pointing in this direction.
One possibility, not marked on the charts above, are the several shoals that are not presenting navigation hazards due to the depth. They are deep enough for a galleon to sail over. But what happens in a Norther?
Before the cold front, there is a period of strong south easterly winds. These winds increase the currents, sometimes to over 2.5 Kn. Passing over the shallow bank, the currents can reach 4 Kn.
When the Norther hits with winds of 55 Miles and more, in the opposite direction the interaction of the ripping currents against the powerful wind, huge seas build up. Any galleon caught in this maelstrom will spend a very bad time indeed.
So is this what happened?
CP

 

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[Colombiapictures]

This is a shaky translation that I can't remember it's origin.
" Finally, on Tuesday, first of November 1605, the galleons capitana San Roque, almiranta Santo Domingo, San Ambrosio, Nuestra Señora de Begoña, San Cristobal, San Martin, San Gregorio, the ship San Pedro and the patache of armada weigh anchor of the Colombian port. After having taken direction NNW and finally SW, on Sunday 6, when of it found the armada in height of 16 scarce degrees and to Pedro Bank east, to the exit of the sun it loaded the very strong wind, navigating all to the E until the midnight that went when they veered to the S. In that moment in many of the ships they had mishaps that caused many damages. The day 8 in the morning, they were sighted among if the galleons San Gregorio, San Martin and the ship San Pedro. For people of this last ship it was known that the patache had keeled without nobody survived. Of common agreement they decided to make direction for Jamaica, that estimated to be to 20 leagues. The day 18 it arrived in Cartagena the San Cristóbal completely destroyed, having been able to navigate to bad hardships. The four remaining galleons, the richest and strong, they were seen by last time navigating heading for the W."
Concerning the bowsprit, this as well.
" but of the four galleons, to part of having appeared floating the figurehead with their bowsprit of the capitana or of the almiranta in the Escudo de Veragua (Panama) there were not more news neither survivors appeared."

Goldminer,

a shaky translation as you say, but it still adds to the knowledge.
Starting with the floating figurehead, somewhere else described as being gilded? (is that the way you it, being covered with gold leaf?)
Somebody has interpreted wrongly that this figurehead turned up near Panama. No, it was part of the Escudo de Varagua. that is the Emblem of the region or province of Veragua, near Panama.
The debris turned up caught in the coral reefs of LAS VIBORAS that you can see on the chart above. Today's Pedro Bank.

Next, let's look at the wind ans sailing or drifting directions. This needs to be plotted to make some sense of it. This type of information is very often wrongly interpreted because the person doing the translation and/or interpretation is not a mariner and has no understanding of the meaning in the sense of navigation.

In the absence of the original document, it sometimes helps to compare various translations, transcripts and interpretations.

So let's do some plotting and interpreting.

Do we have any experts in this field on the forum?

CP

 

[Colombiapictures]

Shipwrecks, their treasures and stories have much greater value than just the gold and silver they carried.

I agree with you.

Trond,

you say only a few words, but I am sure you know a lot. Please add your knowledge to the discussion. We will all appreciate it.

CP

 

[Trond]

CP

I don't have any information i would like to share here on the board regarding this, and when my written English is quite poor it is better to observe and to listen.




But thank you very much for your invitation to your debate.

 

[Colombiapictures]

Claudio,
I look forward to the English release of your latest book.
Don........

Don,
will be a pleasure for me that you read my book in English. About the San Roque, we must not forget that the Spanish in 1606 say they have found remains of the almiranta or capitana floating in the Escudo de Veragua, Panama. In a letter of the Governor of Cuba he wrote, on April 2, 1606 to the King of Spain, which appeared in the Escudo de Veragua the integer bowsprit rigging and sails and could only be the almiranta or capitana, and it sank in high seas.
VV

Vox Veritas,

your interpretation differs very much from mine. I would like to clarify this matter. My sources are of second and third hand. Maybe your sources are first hand documents, in which case I suggest you post an extract of the manuscript so that we can confer and agree on this subject?

On the map posted above we can clearly see the region or province of Veragua.
Provinces, towns etc., had each one their "Coat of Arms". ESCUDO in Spanish.
If a ship was built or financed or mostly in the service of an owner, province, city or king etc. often it would display the owners "Coat of Arms" or Escudo, on several parts of the ship, like the stern, the bowsprit figure etc.
There is talk of a gilded figure:
Testimony of Padre Fray Geronimo Tamayo: "We found on the sea a large golden figure which was believed to be the gild-colored carving that the Capitana had between her two stern lanterns"

And:
Jacome Ortiz stated:
"We were in 16 degrees of north latitude where I found only masts and ropes and sails... our orders were not to leave these parts without a complete search for the galleons."

What is your opinion?

CP

 

[Colombiapictures]

A lot of good information is coming together. Different views motivate to revisit the information and have a second look at it. We are at the stage where no hypothesis can be discarded yet.

There are still many things to discuss before getting down to serious business. One of the first problems to be addressed is the financing of the enterprise.

Let's talk a bit of ways to finance. I believe in private enterprise. How can private enterprise finance the project without leaving the boundaries of the UNESCO CONVENTION?

Panfilo mentioned a documentary movie for NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC.

Panfilo where are you? We need your input.

Expanding a bit in this line, we could mention maybe a series for the HISTORY CHANNEL.
Talking about TV, we might expand to a REALITY SHOW?

The advantage of working within the UNESCO C. sponsoring from various companies, as well as donations become a possibility.
Metal detector, Dive equipment, Electronics, Outboard etc. manufacturers might want to have their publicity seen on the TV programs.

Joint ventures with various TV networks, starting with the most important Colombian TV network.

What about the Internet?

Using a satellite connection, every day an update clip of the expeditions work could be sent out to reach interested people or even schools and universities world wide. (a good way for a historian, archaeologist and several other scientists to become world famous) I don't know how much money is in that, it needs to be checked out.

Subscriptions from all over the world could add up to millions of viewers. (we need a professional crew for that)

U-tube updates daily. Free in low resolution. Payable in high resolution. CD's, DVD's books etc.

To have a base of development, we need to have a definition about the project or enterprise.

So let's try to define or at least narrow down.

"THE SEARCH FOR THE TREASURE GALLEONS"
Or
"THE LOST TREASURE FLEET"
Or
"HOW SPAIN PLUNDERED THE SPANISH MAIN"
Or
"GOLD, SILVER AND EMERALDS"

Please help me there. We need to find "the perfect name"

Key words or ideas:
the treasure fleets,
the treasure lost,
the journey of the treasure from the Spanish Main to Spain,
the journey is the destiny, the goal is the location of the lost treasure,
fun, sun and adventure
diving in the incredible beauty of the virgin coral reefs of the Caribbean
how the treasure was mined, plundered, collected, traded and then sent away to Spain
the dangerous route for the treasure to reach Spain
who does the treasure belong to?

Suggestions please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CP

 

[Chagy]

Some years ago some people wanted us to star in a TV show it was going to be called
"Raising History"

 

[Panfilo]

CP, I get the feeling you’re under the influence of too much caffeine? You sure have a great deal of initiative and drive but believe me people like Don MacKay and others who have been down this road for many years, when one runs into a concrete wall several times…you become more cautious. First things first CP:

If you believe these wrecks are lying inside Colombian jurisdictional waters you must abide by their regulatory system and laws…if you are to do a professional job as this is the only way I would suggest you come down here. If you believe they are in Pedro Banks, which is in Jamaican waters or the Misteriosa Island, in Honduran waters then those are the laws that have to be respected. There are at present no laws in Colombia regulating the exploration and recovery of underwater wrecks as the ones that were in place have been deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court (Corte Constitucional) and the senate has to pass a new law for anybody to be able to work in a project such as the one you’re envisioning. The past two terms of President Uribe have been a total waste in this respect though we were very close twice to getting a reasonably good law passed but we were shot down in the end by the in situ promoters. Promoting new legislation has been one of my priorities for the past ten years and many long hours have been spent trying to make sense of all of this with only one goal: to assist in the development of solid legislation in Colombia that is beneficial for the proper recovery and conservation of its cultural patrimony and heritage and at the same time create a system that will attract cautious yet serious investors in this very high risk business. I see a great deal of similarities between this and oil and gas exploration, high risk, high investments, great deal of uncertainty and the expectation of discovering the elusive. Some of us don’t believe in “in situ preservation” for a long list of reasons in clear contrast to the prevailing feeling in our Ministry of Culture and this has created great deal of friction between us and them.

You know what the really funny thing about this is CP? That as hard as it might be to believe, I think that the easy part is finding where the wrecks are. The accounts are there, the wind and current charts are there, I’ve done that in computer models based on 27 survivor accounts. That’s easy compared to getting the pro-UNESCO government employees to change their points of view, they would rather the wrecks be plundered at night by fishermen or pirates or smashed by hurricanes then allow a serious company to engage in a high risk exploratory enterprise with archaeologists and God forbid they make a profit.
Panfilo

 

[Salvor6]

You are all forgetting another major obstacle. If its a Spanish warship, it doesn't matter in whose waters, Spain will not allow the "grave site" to be disturbed.

 

[Panfilo]

Valid point Salvor but there are two main differences here with the Black Swan case in Tampa: first and foremost in the recent Supreme Court ruling regarding the Sea Search Armada case the Court ruled that shipwrecks in Colombia's EEZ and Continental shelf belong to Colombia. Secondly here we respect the Law of the Sea Convention that states that for a state vessel to be covered by Sovereign Immunity it must be “in an exclusively military non-commercial mission”. We have the ships manifest that proves that this was a commercial mission. I don’t think the Spanish lawyers will have a very hospitable reception in our courts the way they did in Tampa. The San Jose is different, they were in a military battle when they sank but still it was a commercial mission. The problem here Salvor is that for Spain to try and pull that same stunt here it can be a diplomatic nightmare for them, the cost outweighing the benefit. There is still a great deal of resentment and animosity towards the colonial exploitation of Spain here that does not exist in your country.
Panfilo

 

[Vox veritas]

CP In addition,
if we talk about Swan Islands, an Italian archaeologist has obtained the finder's right that the law of Honduras states. In other places I do not know, but ....... as well as Salvor said Spain did not think he will stay quiet. Do not forget that the SAN ROQUE was a ship of the Crown and not private.
The Escudo de Veragua, as described by Juan Lopez de Velasco, Geografia y descripción universal de las Indias was written in 1574 and very well informed person, said Escudo is a small island opposite the mouth of the Rio de la Concepcion (Panama) west of Veragua. I do not think there are questions about where is the Escudo de Veragua.
Good luck with your adventure.
VV

 

[Chagy]

CP, I get the feeling you’re under the influence of too much caffeine? You sure have a great deal of initiative and drive but believe me people like Don MacKay and others who have been down this road for many years, when one runs into a concrete wall several times…you become more cautious. First things first CP:

If you believe these wrecks are lying inside Colombian jurisdictional waters you must abide by their regulatory system and laws…if you are to do a professional job as this is the only way I would suggest you come down here. If you believe they are in Pedro Banks, which is in Jamaican waters or the Misteriosa Island, in Honduran waters then those are the laws that have to be respected. There are at present no laws in Colombia regulating the exploration and recovery of underwater wrecks as the ones that were in place have been deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court (Corte Constitucional) and the senate has to pass a new law for anybody to be able to work in a project such as the one you’re envisioning. The past two terms of President Uribe have been a total waste in this respect though we were very close twice to getting a reasonably good law passed but we were shot down in the end by the in situ promoters. Promoting new legislation has been one of my priorities for the past ten years and many long hours have been spent trying to make sense of all of this with only one goal: to assist in the development of solid legislation in Colombia that is beneficial for the proper recovery and conservation of its cultural patrimony and heritage and at the same time create a system that will attract cautious yet serious investors in this very high risk business. I see a great deal of similarities between this and oil and gas exploration, high risk, high investments, great deal of uncertainty and the expectation of discovering the elusive. Some of us don’t believe in “in situ preservation” for a long list of reasons in clear contrast to the prevailing feeling in our Ministry of Culture and this has created great deal of friction between us and them.

You know what the really funny thing about this is CP? That as hard as it might be to believe, I think that the easy part is finding where the wrecks are. The accounts are there, the wind and current charts are there, I’ve done that in computer models based on 27 survivor accounts. That’s easy compared to getting the pro-UNESCO government employees to change their points of view, they would rather the wrecks be plundered at night by fishermen or pirates or smashed by hurricanes then allow a serious company to engage in a high risk exploratory enterprise with archaeologists and God forbid they make a profit.
Panfilo

Well said Panfilo. That is the truth of the matter. I wish we had more people like you in this industry…

Thank you…

 

[Vox veritas]

Valid point Salvor but there are two main differences here with the Black Swan case in Tampa: first and foremost in the recent Supreme Court ruling regarding the Sea Search Armada case the Court ruled that shipwrecks in Colombia's EEZ and Continental shelf belong to Colombia. Secondly here we respect the Law of the Sea Convention that states that for a state vessel to be covered by Sovereign Immunity it must be “in an exclusively military non-commercial mission”. We have the ships manifest that proves that this was a commercial mission. I don’t think the Spanish lawyers will have a very hospitable reception in our courts the way they did in Tampa. The San Jose is different, they were in a military battle when they sank but still it was a commercial mission. The problem here Salvor is that for Spain to try and pull that same stunt here it can be a diplomatic nightmare for them, the cost outweighing the benefit. There is still a great deal of resentment and animosity towards the colonial exploitation of Spain here that does not exist in your country.
Panfilo

Panfilo
it is unclear whether the galleon San Jose was a chartered or was a ship of the Navy. The primary mission of the galleons, oddly enough, was not commercial but to escort the fleet. Reality was different ....... but well written and well know historians.
Indeed, one of the questions is: Spain has the right to claim these wrecks of capitanas and almirantas who were seized for some officer missions? Very interesting and intriguing question.
VV

 

[Alexandre]

Do the Formigas count as an island of the Azores?

Could this be the place where one of Duguay Trouin's galleons, laden with halve of the immense plunder of the raid on Rio De Janeiro in 1722 sank?

Treasurediver

The Formigas is a set of rocks with a small phare on top - there are dozens of such small rocky reefs around the Azores and they are not islands.

The Duguay Trouin affair has been researched and told by Patrick Lizé on his book "L'or a la tonne". There's nothing there, though, except for the remains of an iron steamer, the Olympia.

 

[Alexandre]

A lot of good information is coming together. Different views motivate to revisit the information and have a second look at it. We are at the stage where no hypothesis can be discarded yet.

There are still many things to discuss before getting down to serious business. One of the first problems to be addressed is the financing of the enterprise.
(...)

Suggestions please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at how INA finances the dozens of projects that have going on all over the world....

http://inadiscover.com/projects/2010-projects-/

 

[Panfilo]

It doesn’t matter Vox if the ship belongs to the King himself or if it was a state vessel or not: suppose, to illustrate my point,that the Spanish Navy rented an Italian frigate that belonged to a bunch of not very religious ladies of the kind that work in a horizontal position, you know the kind, to transport cannon and ammunition on its way to Trafalgar. It is shot by the Brits and drifts and manages to reach the same Italian port where these generous ladies lived and it is discovered 200 years later by the great grandson of the head-Madam. He claims the bronze cannon as his inheritance as the ship belonged to his 37 uncles and his father. No dice, this is and was “an exclusively military non commercial mission” and its therefore a Sovereign Immune ship. That is International maritime law.
Panfilo

 

[Colombiapictures]

Do the Formigas count as an island of the Azores?

Could this be the place where one of Duguay Trouin's galleons, laden with halve of the immense plunder of the raid on Rio De Janeiro in 1722 sank?

Treasurediver

The Formigas is a set of rocks with a small phare on top - there are dozens of such small rocky reefs around the Azores and they are not islands.

The Duguay Trouin affair has been researched and told by Patrick Lizé on his book "L'or a la tonne". There's nothing there, though, except for the remains of an iron steamer, the Olympia.

Alexandre,
thanks for the name of the shipwreck.
I made a dive on the Formigas, years ago and saw the remains of a relatively modern shipwreck, so now, finally after 28 years I know the name of what I saw.
By the way, it is Robert Stenuit who wrote the book L'Or a la tonne.

CP

 

[Colombiapictures]

CP, I get the feeling you’re under the influence of too much caffeine? You sure have a great deal of initiative and drive but believe me people like Don MacKay and others who have been down this road for many years, when one runs into a concrete wall several times…you become more cautious. First things first CP:

If you believe these wrecks are lying inside Colombian jurisdictional waters you must abide by their regulatory system and laws…if you are to do a professional job as this is the only way I would suggest you come down here. If you believe they are in Pedro Banks, which is in Jamaican waters or the Misteriosa Island, in Honduran waters then those are the laws that have to be respected. There are at present no laws in Colombia regulating the exploration and recovery of underwater wrecks as the ones that were in place have been deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court (Corte Constitucional) and the senate has to pass a new law for anybody to be able to work in a project such as the one you’re envisioning. The past two terms of President Uribe have been a total waste in this respect though we were very close twice to getting a reasonably good law passed but we were shot down in the end by the in situ promoters. Promoting new legislation has been one of my priorities for the past ten years and many long hours have been spent trying to make sense of all of this with only one goal: to assist in the development of solid legislation in Colombia that is beneficial for the proper recovery and conservation of its cultural patrimony and heritage and at the same time create a system that will attract cautious yet serious investors in this very high risk business. I see a great deal of similarities between this and oil and gas exploration, high risk, high investments, great deal of uncertainty and the expectation of discovering the elusive. Some of us don’t believe in “in situ preservation” for a long list of reasons in clear contrast to the prevailing feeling in our Ministry of Culture and this has created great deal of friction between us and them.

You know what the really funny thing about this is CP? That as hard as it might be to believe, I think that the easy part is finding where the wrecks are. The accounts are there, the wind and current charts are there, I’ve done that in computer models based on 27 survivor accounts. That’s easy compared to getting the pro-UNESCO government employees to change their points of view, they would rather the wrecks be plundered at night by fishermen or pirates or smashed by hurricanes then allow a serious company to engage in a high risk exploratory enterprise with archaeologists and God forbid they make a profit.
Panfilo

Ah, Panfilo, you make me happy. There is so much to learned from your answers. Delicious Colombian coffee by he big mug full.
Here is one more problem, one more concrete wall. There will be many more until we are finished. (see attachment)
Bureaucrats can be extremely frustrating. I agree. I agree with most of what you say, but I look at it from a different angle. Legislation, politics, I hate that crap. But it exists and I can not change it, so I have to live with it.
The same with UNESCO. It can not be made to go away.
I also agree with your analogy with the petroleum exploration. It is perfect if you compare it with treasure hunting.

But I am not talking about going treasure hunting for the Cordoba galleons. Unfortunately I can not let the cat out of the bag on a public forum. (people might see that it is a rabbit... or is it a Tasmanian devil?) I would like to discuss the possibilities privately though.

About the plotting of the navigation information given by the survivor accounts. Do you agree with me that the storm was a Norther? By the way, I forgot how people call the Northers in the region. I know they have a specific name.

CP

 

[Colombiapictures]

CP In addition,
if we talk about Swan Islands, an Italian archaeologist has obtained the finder's right that the law of Honduras states. In other places I do not know, but ....... as well as Salvor said Spain did not think he will stay quiet. Do not forget that the SAN ROQUE was a ship of the Crown and not private.
The Escudo de Veragua, as described by Juan Lopez de Velasco, Geografia y descripción universal de las Indias was written in 1574 and very well informed person, said Escudo is a small island opposite the mouth of the Rio de la Concepcion (Panama) west of Veragua. I do not think there are questions about where is the Escudo de Veragua.
Good luck with your adventure.
VV

Thank you for the explanation. A further point of interest might be to look at the coat of arms of Veragua. I wonder what it looked like.

CP

 

[Panfilo]

Fortunately CP the sovereignty issue of Serranilla and the rest of those keys, atolls and insular areas that comprise Colombian waters is not a terribly challenging one. With the US, Colombia has signed and ratified a treaty giving Colombia full rights over these areas and when the US is in your side…well, you’ve got it made. Nicaragua is claiming that in 1928 when they signed and later its congress ratified an ocean boundary treaty with Colombia they were occupied by the US. Give me a break, what a lame excuse, sounds something Chavez would have dreamt up. That won’t hold any water in international courts so not to worry. With Jamaica we have treaties as with Honduras, Costa Rica and Panama.

Regarding your curiosity as to where the Cordoba galleons are CP, that has a very difficult and expensive answer. Many trips, many years, many archival hours of work and many hypothesis, conjectures and a lot of sound logic. Specially difficult is differentiating the true accounts from the make believe fictional ones that abound in old documents. I have one antique colonial armoire, originally from a sacristy in some church as it has a challis and a cross carved on its doors and it holds my Cordoba files, its full. I’ve been perhaps in over ten different archives all over the world researching these wrecks and have been there several times. Not treasure hunting as that is prohibited by law here but I was there doing mineral prospecting and later exploration for magnetite as I’m a registered professional mining engineer. Until we have a law here in Colombia CP, anybody that tells you they have a permit to look for a shipwreck in these waters they are scamming you, beware; so its useless to, as we say here, “saddle the horse before you lasso him”
Panfilo