Undiscovered treasure galleons

[Chagy]

CP,

Caffeine? or is it wine?

Tu eres Colombiano?

 

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[Colombiapictures]

Friends,

this discussion is getting too close to the skin. We have to move it to a hypothetical level.

Panfilo,
I deeply respect your opinion and knowledge.
I have been there too. More than once. I paid every penny of the cost of the expeditions out of my own pocket.
My professional back ground and interests are different from yours so we look at things from different angles.
A mariner who spent 30 years sailing the oceans of the world, or a diver who spent the same amount of time under the ocean will have quite a different view of the sea. Different, but each one in his own right.
Combining both views provides valuable insights that remain invisible to anybody else coming from still another direction.

So let's leave these galleons in peace for a while longer in their watery grave.

Let's move to a different ocean. I hope you will continue to add your knowledge and opinions to the discussion, we just move it to a hypothetical level in a different part of the world.

CP

 

[Colombiapictures]

The Cordoba galleons were part of a fairly average treasure fleet. Their destination was Spain of course. The next stop was Habana. should we look at what they did in Habana? To tell the truth, it does not get me much excited.

The next stop was the Azores.

Now that is a real nice place. Nice people too. I have fond memories. That special whine, the tasty cheese and fabulous bread mad a combination that still makes my mouth water 28 years later.

What was I doing there? The shipwrecks of course.

So let's talk a bit about the Azores shipwrecks. Most of them are from the treasure fleets.

CP

 

[Panfilo]

Now that you brought the Cordoba fleet to this forum CP, and before you move things to the Azores where I must confess my knowledge of wrecks there is at the same level as my knowledge of nano-neurosurgery, there is one related topic that perhaps was treated in a previous thread, don’t remember: I have come across a while back onto some internet reports that “somebody” found one of these galleons, the San Roque presumably though not sure, in Bahamian waters. The funny thing that made me doubt at the time is that they said, and again not sure, it was not a 1605 ship but a 1606 sailing. I’ve looked for these references on the web and have found nothing, wondering if somebody knows anything regarding this “sighting”. On a separate note there have also been reports that two bronze cannons were recovered in Serranilla in the 30’s or 40’s, anybody hear any such reports?
Panfilo

 

[Mackaydon]

CP:
It's my understanding.......
1. Colombia doesn't issue TH permits,
2. Mexico doesn't issue TH permits,
3. The Azores don't issue TH permits,
4. Cuban doesn't issue TH permits to us 'gringos',
5. UNESCO has their requirements in many countries; and
6. Spain claims all the lost galleons--wherever lost.
Using these premises as a starting point, I might concentrate on 'what's left'?
On the other hand, if only 'ancillary rights' would be acceptable to an investor, and requested by the organizer, items 1-6 might open up for consideration with those host countries.
Don.....

 

[Chagy]

CP,

What some of us are trying to tell you is; what is the point in concentrating our efforts in Countries that don’t issue salvage permits. I do understand that you mentioned using a different approach such as TV documentary or filming a movie and I do give you credit for your creativity. But the truth of the matter is that they don’t want to disturb their wrecks. So what is the point on finding them if you can’t salvage them. Is like wanting to get in a door that has a big DO NOT DISTURB sign. You can look at the door all day long but you can get in or even knock on it.

All the best,

Chagy.....

 

[Salvor6]

Panfilo, I posted the "sighting" of the vessel Santo Domingo in the Bahamas. My partner, Joe Hines found a chart of the Bahamas with a shipwreck symbol north of Memory Rock and the words "Santo Domingo, 1606." He had a salvage permit in the Bahamas at the time and was following the debris trail. Joe thinks the Spanish authorities lied about the location of the wreck to prevent pirates from stealing treasure since it sank in shallow water. I also have a large file on this fleet including info from Eric White who was a diver for Pacific Geographic and files from Dr. Jack S. Williams- principal investigator for the Seranilla Banks Project.

 

[Colombiapictures]

CP,

What some of us are trying to tell you is; what is the point in concentrating our efforts in Countries that don’t issue salvage permits. I do understand that you mentioned using a different approach such as TV documentary or filming a movie and I do give you credit for your creativity. But the truth of the matter is that they don’t want to disturb their wrecks. So what is the point on finding them if you can’t salvage them. Is like wanting to get in a door that has a big DO NOT DISTURB sign. You can look at the door all day long but you can get in or even knock on it.

All the best,

Chagy.....

Chagy, Mackaydon,

thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with me. Since you are very experienced in "The Trade", you will also understand that I can not post all the details on an open forum.
I also have some experience. But this business is so big, that I want and need ALL of the most experienced and knowledgeable people involved. Except the competition of course.

I don't want to go treasure hunting. Been there-done-that.

Too much hassle to transform the treasure into hard cash. Too much risk involved. That was in the good old times. Today it is just impossible. Can not be done anymore.

So what do we who have been of "The Trade" do now with our knowledge and experience?

Find new ways to apply what we know.

Treasure has it's own special charm. I remember the days, when it felt like having won the lottery. Many such days.
Treasure also has a great impact with the majority of the people all around the world. And today we live in a global economy, a global market. So global that you can not recover treasure in the one part of the world and try to sell it in another part.

It is a problem to own treasure, it is a problem to sell treasure, so why search for treasure?

Because it is fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We just need to find a way to pay for the fun. Find a way to turn the fun into cash, not the treasure. Let the governments fight over the treasure. Let them have it. (didn't bob Marx write a book "Treasure is Trouble" or something of the kind?

I much prefer to have the fun and the green hard cash than the treasure.

Ahh, the risk factor. High risk factor needs high stakes. So let's cut down on the risk factor.

Make the journey the destination.

I mentioned the Azores as a hypothetical subject for discussion because everybody knows that there are a lot of shipwrecks there with a lot of treasure.

I am trying to make this hypothetical discussion to see who has the knowledge, the experience and the motivation to go for it.
The world has shrunk, the technological advances make a lot possible that 20 years ago was impossible.

But there are actually very few people on the whole world who have more than a few years of experience.
I could tell you many stories of people who swam over a shipwreck without recognizing it.

CP

 

[Panfilo]

Salvor, that is a very interesting discovery, the old chart, it would have to be authenticated as to its originality by a meticulous analysis of the ink and paper though I’ve come across forgeries made with paper from that time period. It sounds possible yet the fact that there are no corroborating reports does make one wonder as the Spanish normally had a few pearl divers in rescue ships for these eventualities or as in other cases they would contract out the recovery. Of particular interest are the Cardona’s, Thomas and his nephew:

El capitán Nicolás de Cardona, dice: Que sirve a Vuestra Majestad desde el año de 610 en la carrera de las Indias, de que tuvo experiencia en el asiento que hizo con Vuestra Majestad el capitán Tomás de Cardona, su tío, y demás partícipes, para el descubrimiento de nuevos ostiales de perlas en el mar del Norte y Sur, y buscar los galeones perdidos del general don Luis Fernández de Córdova, y otros efectos, y pasar al mar del Sur al descubrimiento del rico reino de la California; y que en virtud de sus poderes, empezó el dicho descubrimiento desde el año de 613, yendo por almirante de los seis bajeles que salieron el dicho año del puerto de Sanlúcar de Barrameda; y continuando su viaje, vio y fondeó todas las islas de Barlovento que están en cordillera de norte-sur, como son la de San Cristóbal antiguo, las Nieves, Guadalupe, la Dominica, Matalina; San Vicente, Santa Lucía, la Granada, y otras muchas que corresponden a este paraje. Y así mismo la Tierra Firme, desde la punta de la Esmeralda, la Margarita, Cumaná y su costa, hasta Puerto Velo; y bojeó las islas de Puerto-Rico, Santo Domingo, Xamaica, las Vívoras, el Caimán grande y chico, la costa de Bacalar y Cusumel, Cabo de Cotoche, Campeche, la laguna de Términos, y todos los varaderos y anegadas de San Juan de Lua, en que se ocupó más de un año de tiempo, pasando en estas peregrinaciones grandes riesgos e incomodidades, y en particular en las dichas islas de los Caribes, adonde estuvo dos meses, trayéndolos de paz de muchas dellas, y sacando algunos negros y negras, y criaturas que los indios tenían captivas de los navíos que dan al través. Y así mismo sacó algunos indios cristianos de la dotrina de Paria, y cinco indios caribes, que voluntariamente se pasaron con él a tierra de cristianos, donde recibieron el agua del Santo Bautismo, y mediante el buen tratamiento y afabilidad que tuvo con los dichos indios, los redujo de paz, como lo están hoy, lo cual ha sido gran servicio a Dios y de Vuestra Majestad.
One would think that if they did survive the hurricane and didn’t sink, Salvor, that the ship would have lost most if not all of its masts and rigging and they must have passed very close to Cuba to get to the Bahamas and would have had to purposely evade that port. Possible, but then we would have to be considering a mutiny and a conspiracy of the sailors to steal the silver and gold shipments. I have two documents from the mid 1610’s that states they were never found and a request by Cardona himself to look for these ships including the Santo Domingo.
Panfilo

 

[Colombiapictures]

Maybe learning more about the hurricane could give us a better idea as to where the ships might have ended up. How many M.P.H.? The exact path, ect….I looked it up in “Hurricanes of the Caribbean” By Carlos Millas But there is very little information about the hurricane it self….

Panfilo thinks it was a hurricane, I believe the pattern fits well for a "Norther".

Does Millas give any particulars about the hurricane? Exact date and region? Or does he mention it as the storm that destroyed the 1605 fleet?

Nowadays we know that the hurricane patterns change over time. If we look at hurricane charts in recent years and then back as far as the precise records go, we can see distinct changes in pattern.
For example in the South Western Caribbean we have not seen many hurricanes, but some time ago they were common there.

The seasons also change in a certain pattern. We can surmise that the Spanish mariners also observed these patterns and adapted to it.
There are of course always hurricanes that fall outside the usual pattern.

How do the winds fit a hurricane? The wind started from the South East and ended in the North or North East. That fits well for a Norther, but not for a hurricane.

By the way, what happened to the TV series?

Saludos
CP

 

[Panfilo]

CP, you are talking archeometeorology; for a fine example I suggest you read Gene Lyon’s book on the Atocha, it’s a handy tool. That same year of 1605, a hurricane destroyed and sank four galleons near Cumana, Santa Margarita island, today Venezuela and produced great destruction in Haiti, Dominican Republic and Cuba…still not sure it was a hurricane that sank those four Cordoba galleons? If so I suggest you read “Identification of Caribbean basin hurricanes from Spanish documentary sources” in the Journal of Climatic Change. And then there’s this corroborating fact: “Aruba along with her sister islands Bonaire and Curacao are situated in an area of the Caribbean where hurricanes are very uncommon. There was a cycle in about every century the islands were whipped severely by a hurricane. The years were 1605, 1784, 1877, 1955 (Janet) and 2005(Ivan).”
You talk about “the usual pattern of a hurricane” here’s graph that will illustrate that Serranilla is in the dead center of where they pass and if you’re referring to a “nor’easter” CP, that is considered as an “extratropical storm” (outside of the tropics), so named because the winds come from the northeast in northern US. This is not a common occurrence or phenomenon in the Caribbean.

I remember very clearly and with horror when hurricane Mitch passed and stayed on top of Serranilla in 1998, not a pretty sight. It did though uncover several cannons, here is a graph of its path.
Panfilo

 

[Panfilo]

Graph No.1:

 

[Panfilo]

Graph No. 2:

 

[Chagy]

I went back to the Millas book and actually there are 3 cases in 1605. Last time I saw the last one that has very little information. Here is the rest of the information. I am not going to type 2 entire pages so I will type the most important information

Seas near the northern coasts of Hispaniola and Cuba.

The existence of this supposed hurricane, not in the list of any author, is based on the lost of 3 ships in different regions. Apparently in succession: one in Santo Domingo, one in Bahamas Channel and one In Havana.

This can be explained by a single hurricane that passed over the seas north of and near Hispaniola and Cuba.

This information comes from a book by Fernandez Duro.

Coast of Cumana, Venezuela

Also Fernandez Duro mentions a sea disaster and the lost of 4 galleons of Luis de Cordova on the coast of Cumana, near the Island of Santa Margarita.

We find the same disaster mentioned on a book of C.H. Haring (1910, 295)
The information was provably taken from the Duro’s book.

Serranilla Bank, Western Caribbean Sea.

Very little is known about this and other early hurricanes of this century. We have to be satisfied to know at least the year in which the hurricane existed.

This region of Serranilla Bank, about half way between Cabo Gracias a Dios and Morant Point, extreme eastern end of Jamaica, is an extremely dangerous place for shipsduring hurricane weather.

 

[Chagy]

If the winds of a hurricane are going clock wise and the eye of the hurricane is north of the fleet then it would have pushed the fleet southwest if the eye of the hurricane was south of the fleet then it would have push the fleet northeast. Maybe they are west or south of Jamaica or even near Cabo Gracias a Dios or even somewhere in the east coast of Honduras....

 

[Vox veritas]

The storm (it was not a hurricane) only lasted a few hours. This was reason why the Spanish were surprised for the disappearances. Even then it was thought that shipwrecks may have occurred in Honduras. In the case of Zacarias, in the early documents refer about two galleons lost and the Spanish themselves did not rule out this possibility.
For now I still believe Zacarias. Another thing is if you have new documents, but in France is one of 1688 which says that a buccaneer Swan left buried a treasure (or found a treasure) on an uninhabited island. Other mystery for Misteriosa island.
VV

 

[Panfilo]

1) Hurricanes, technically referred to as a tropical cyclone is a storm system characterized by a large low-pressure center and numerous thunderstorms that produce strong winds and heavy rain. The term "cyclone" refers to such storms' cyclonic nature, with counterclockwise rotation in the Northern Hemisphere.
2) In the North Atlantic the hurricane season starts in June and ends in November so that would place us at the end of the hurricane season well within the historical probabilities for this phenomenon for the first week of November.
3) Nor'easters differ from tropical cyclones in that nor'easters are cold-core low-pressure systems, meaning that they thrive on cold air. Tropical cyclones are warm-core low-pressure systems, which means they thrive on warm temperatures.
4) Many of us Claudio who have had to endure a hurricane (tropical cyclone) will attest to the fact that: a) the severity of a hurricane one feels where one is situated is related to the intensity of the winds, i.e. the classification from 1 to 5 resulting from the wind speeds and to the distance one is from the “eye of the hurricane”. And b) The duration in time of the effects and winds one is receiving is directly related to the speed the hurricane is moving along. Many of the TN members who reside in the South US, Florida especially can attest to this. There is nothing unusual in being hit by a brut force of a hurricane for twelve hours, which is a proven phenomenon. True, a hurricane can and does stall in one place (it did so in Serranilla in 1998, the poor Coast Guards told me it was horrific) for days but it can also be moving at a fairly good speed.
5) The documented change in the direction of the winds according to the survivor’s accounts agrees with a counterclockwise effect of a northerly moving hurricane. Try it, plot the wind direction from “the time of prayer” that late afternoon on Sunday ‘till mid morning on Monday and you will be able to chart the path of the hurricane. I did it.

That being said and due to the geographical location of the storm there is no hard evidence that contradicts the assumption that this 1605 event was a hurricane. I have yet to find one reason it can not have been a hurricane and there are many that indicate it was.
Panfilo

 

[Colombiapictures]

Chagy, Vox Veritas, Panfilo,

thanks for the information. The fact if it was a hurricane or a norther is not all that important. The Wind and current pattern is more important.
During the storm as well as after the storm. The winds and currents after the storm are the ones that transport the debris in certain directions.

I have survived 3 hurricanes, on board of my boat. 2 times the eye passed right over the boat. First hand experience.
The Google? map with the hurricane paths is beautiful. I studied the charts of all the recorded hurricanes, since the beginning of the records, detailed by year and month.
I did this not because of the 1605 galleons only, but because I as "in the trade", interested in all the shipwrecks.

I also weathered a fierce Norther in the 1605 galleon region. the winds were 55Kn, with peaks where the wind indicator needle on my boat was stuck on the maximum at times. As Vox-Veritas says, the Norther is of short duration.

So I do know a few things. But one never knows all. One always wants to compare knowledge and acquire more knowledge.

This is why I keep this discussion going. To find out who has the knowledge. To find out who knows more than me or who can help me to learn more.

Thanks for the help

CP

 

[Mackaydon]

For what it's worth.....
When we were working at 'Sarah', a Norther came up at dusk. We tucked in, as best we could, to the lee of Middle or another Cay; not Beacon Cay which was occupied at the time. After getting thrashed enough to have my dive platform ripped off the stern, the winds changed to a more notherly direction, fully exposing our position. We moved the boat to the south side of Beacon Cay and weathered it out. A lobster boat to our portside was there for a couple of hours, then vanished. That was my worse (scariest, yes) night at sea.
Don.....

 

[Panfilo]

I’m thinking perhaps you were on Middle Key, due north of Beacon Key Don, not a nice place to be in a storm. The Glossary of Weather and Climate defines Norther as a cold strong northerly wind in the Southern Plains of the United States, especially in Texas, which results in a drastic drop in air temperatures. Also called a Blue Norther. The survivor accounts don’t match any of the scientific definitions for a Norther I’ve come across, not for these latitudes. And if we look at the facts Don: four ships lost all of their masts and rigging, four sank or disappeared from sight, most likely sank there or somewhere shortly after the storm as there is no conclusive and CORROBORATIVE archival document that states that any of the four missing ever turned up anywhere, in any port I mean. That must have been a hell of a storm, I know you’ve read the accounts, that was no Norther, it was a hurricane that moved along rapidly. The San Martin, the Rosario and the San Gregorio lost all of their masts and sails, the patache overturned which is a significant piece of the puzzle to figure out the kind of storm they were in.
Yes, the Zacarias story is there but the fact remains nobody ever found the San Roque and Zacarias’ accounts are full inaccuracies and bold lies as are his accounts of the gold mines he found in Swan Island or Misteriosa which ever one believes he was in. The Bahamas sighting is possible though unlikely, one would think that if they made it to that latitude, north of Memory Rock, they weren’t going to Cuba or to Florida, they were going home or to steal the silver. It took the San Cristobal almost a year to get fixed up in Cartagena after the storm, does one think that they would attempt an Atlantic crossing alone, with no rigging, surely no masts? If they, the mutineers stopped in some far off place and fixed the sails, found provisions for six or eight months (?) and were heading for Europe, perhaps but that maybe would of left some trace somewhere, a survivor, a sighting, something. Plus there has not been any coin or artifact recovered to corroborate any of these “rumors”. We’ll see, someday, hopefully in our lifetime we’ll know the truth and I’ll take wagers its not in Swan, Misteriosa or in the Bahamas or as the great expert Duro places them in Cumana, Venezuela. They all sank. Where, CP wants to know?
Panfilo