Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

mrs.oroblanco · Dec 3, 2011

RWLJ,

Would you do us a favor and split up your posts - there is so much print there, that it is hard to read and keep track of.

Beth

Oroblanco · Dec 3, 2011

Greetings RWLJ and everyone,

This is a very long reply in an attempt to address some of the points raised by RWLJ’s recent post, and still I did not cover all of them; so I must beg your indulgence. Thank you in advance.

RWLJ wrote

Oro Blanco you answer me out of context on my statement on Josephus, I was replying to a previous statement, his statement that Eden means Red Earth was correct.

My reason was only to point out that Josephus can not be wholly trusted as a source, one should always have another source to verify anything found in his works. Hence the example posted about Tarsus; conversely, his account of the Jewish revolt is widely acknowledged as the best available.

RWLJ also wrote

Oro Blanco I was trying to let you know that by having knowledge of pre-Columbian places with their original names, you did not need to be misled by red herring or copycat name places, which is why no one has found the Dutchman mine at the wrong Salt River and the wrong Superstitious Mountains. I think that may have been a threat to you and others and believe that you tried to blanket me with incomplete knowledge based on your past experience and preconceived ideas, which is ok I may have done worse in the same circumstances. I am capable of defending my turf until I have a chance to look at the bigger picture.

Well it would be hard to change which Superstition mountains that Jacob Waltz was referring to, when he was living in Phoenix and pointed at the very ones we know of today when he told his friends that the mine is located there. If the mine were located hundreds of miles away in another mountain range, it would have been pretty cruel of him to fool his good friends not to mention make it impossible for him to go to the mine and return in just a few days time.

You keep referring to my attempting to “blanket you” with knowledge, by which statement I do not understand what you mean, and clearly there is some major misunderstanding as that was never my intent to blanket or smother you in any way. You also seem to view a discussion as some kind of verbal combat, which also is not what I was trying to accomplish. I was under the mistaken impression that you wanted to discuss your theories and discoveries, clearly you do not wish to discuss them so much as present them.

Your theory is linking many widely disparate and (to most people) quite un-related legends as well as historical things which are (in my opinion) not truly linked. You object to “taking things out of context” which have been merely attempts to show that the case is not well constructed by pointing out single problems. One example will suffice; you have relocated Moses and the exodus into the western US, which there is little evidence to support, and ignore that by doing so you then have to explain the ‘hole’ left in the Middle East history by removing them. If Moses and the Israelites were in America, then whom were the Egyptians driving out of Egypt? The Egyptian record of the expulsion of the Hyksos, which many historians see as closely tied to the Hebrew story of exodus, would have to be relocated to America too. This is only one example, you have included the mines of Tumacacori, Tayopa, the Lost Dutchman and Lost Adams, which all have their own histories, date to different times and different locations as well as different players for the most part. The Peralta stones are questionable, to use them as a foundation for any theory of history is certain to run into objections from historians.

On Paleo-hebrew, allow me to point this out, quote

The Paleo-Hebrew alphabet (Hebrew: הכתב העברי הקדום‎) (Yiddish: כתב עברי), is an abjad offshoot of the ancient Semitic alphabet, identical to the Phoenician alphabet. At the very least it dates to the 10th century BCE. It was used as the main vehicle for writing the Hebrew language by the Israelites, both Jews and Samaritans.

It began to fall out of use by the Jews in the 5th century BCE when they adopted the Aramaic alphabet as their writing system for Hebrew, from which the present Jewish "square-script" Hebrew alphabet descends.

End quote

The ancient Hebrews were not a great seafaring race; their historic efforts in the sea date to David and Solomon, relatively a brief period of time; in this attempt they enlisted the aid of their Phoenician neighbors, who were a great seafaring people. It would be a great surprise to find ancient Hebrew inscriptions in America; on the other hand it would not be a great surprise to find ancient Phoenician inscriptions anywhere in the world. The Los Lunas “Ten Commandments” is debatable, for you can read it in Phoenician without having to do a hatchet job of reading it, which you must do in order to read it as a version of the Ten Commandments. There are other reasons to suspect that site has been misidentified as well, but here is an extract describing what you have to do in order to interpret the Dekalogue stone as an abridged version of the Ten Commandments:

The Los Lunas inscription starts with the top line, continues on the 3rd line, goes back into the 2nd line (that one was inserted later, hence the smaller line spacing !), it then goes on with the left half of the 3rd line and continues all the way down to the last line.

Now writing in ancient times was not so strict as we are today, usually it followed from right to left, then on to the next line, sometimes in what is termed Boustophedron or “walking the plow” that is right to left on one line, then left to right on the next and so on; but I have never found any ancient inscription written in the form that you would read one line, skip to the third, stop half way and go back to the second, then back to third etc. If that is the correct way to read it, that is a large red flag that the inscription is fraudulent for that reason alone. However it is not necessary to follow that chopped up route to read it, it is quite possible to read it by following the normal routine (right to left line one, right to left line two and so on) in Phoenician and still get a translation that makes sense and tells a story. Not the Ten Commandments however.

I do object to describing treasure hunters as “greedy”; this is a common misconception. While there probably are some few treasure hunters that may fit that term, you will find the majority are very far from greedy; anyone who doubtrs this I invite to take up your shovel and pick, come out and give it a try, and within a few blisters any trace of greed that may have been present will soon evaporate. We who go treasure hunting do so because we love to do it, not out of greed. Were we simply out for financial gain, there are many other pursuits which are much more certain of result, without the necessity of blisters, miles of hiking and packing, enduring terrible weather, tormenting insects not to mention the very real dangers involved.

If you would rather not discuss the various points covered and implied in your theory (and location) in order to examine them, I will be happy to drop the subject. As things stand at the moment I remain respectfully un-convinced.. One last thing before I close this very long post, just to prove to you that I am not just being overly skeptical, and agree that our history books are in need of some revision here is a link to a chapter I wrote for a book of several ‘alternate history’ theories;

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jl...und preston peet&pg=PA109#v=onepage&q&f=false

I am quite convinced there were ancient visitors and explorers coming to America long before Columbus, however I have yet to see enough evidence to support any large expeditions as you have proposed such as Moses and the Israelites. The lack of evidence does not prove they were not here of course, but logically if the whole twelve tribes of the Hebrews were in America, surely some of their livestock would have been adopted by the agricultural socieites of Amerindians and there is no trace of this.

Good luck and good hunting to you RWLJ and everyone reading this I hope you find the treasures that you seek. :thumbsup:

Oroblanco

cactusjumper · Dec 3, 2011

RW,

"Just these ties alone should start waking people up to the bigger picture that I am trying to present."

"I hope I have not said too much. Your future, the future of this nation and the world depends on the people that are willing to sacrifice to obtain the truth."

You certainly have given us a lot to think about. Considering the important implications of the above statement, I can't help but wonder why you are "trying to present" it to such a small audience, when it's so important to the world at large. :help:

Are you just practicing for a future presentation on a world stage or, as I asked you at the Rendezvous, "Why are you here"? :dontknow:

Good luck,

Joe

RWLJ · Dec 4, 2011

12-4-11
Hello Oro Blanco
You are a very good critic, but I appreciate your statements nevertheless. Scholars from the Harvard University claim they dated the Paleo-Hebrew in the Middle East to the 12th century BC, which coincides with the accounts from the Egyptians of a Sea People that came in there with a circumcised people. These Sea People were made up of the ancestors of the Greeks, Phoenicians and Israelites, and they truly were a sea going people, no doubt they worked with Israelites that first showed up in the Middle East as well as those who were their neighbors from where they all came from, which was America. In connection with the Paleo-Hebrew or the Ten Commandments in Lunas New Mexico. I learned how to read in my teens from classic funny books that I bought for 15 cents at the time and my English grammar isn’t too good. I noticed in my last post, that I jumped back and forth a little. The author of them Ten Commandments may have been no better in his Hebrew grammar than I am in my English, not having any training in English or its grammar.
You ask a very good question. Why would the Dutchman mislead people in the Superstitious Mountains? I said before he had a stash there, would answer why he could go and come back in such a short time, but that still does not answer why he would mislead by making statements that people would interpret to fit in the Superstitious Mountains. I don’t think he ever said his place was in the Superstitious Mountains, he did mention the Salt River Mountains the same ones as are on the Peralta Map, which others later referred to his statements as applying to the Superstitious Mountains. But even if he did, the Indians were more superstitious about messing with the heart of heaven where the mines were than any other place with the exception of the heart of the earth. I have personally found a manufactured heart, one about for feet long and two small one carved on rocks, at the heart of the earth, and a small heart stone about five inches long and a heart shaped cave at the heart of heaven, and the Hebrew name for that place still means heart in Hebrew.
Why would the so-called Dutchman say things that would mislead the people? Why would any person that found a treasure or rich mines mislead and not give people correct directions to their mine? And why would Christ speak in parables that some would understand and others wouldn’t. A quote from Mathew chapter 13 verses 9, 10 and 11,
“9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.”
I have not seen any of the Indians taking the Spanish Government or any other government to their heart of heaven.
I believe in time I will post, the big reason why the Fugitive so-called Dutchman left clues and misled people, but that would be a lengthy story in itself. And I think it was your wife who asked me to keep my postings short. There are many that hunt different types of treasures that are searching for the truth who work hard and are not greedy, you are right on that point. I am sorry if I offended anyone and did not state things clear. I was trying to help people to stay away from the broad easy road when looking for treasure, and look deeper at the rest of the story.
RWLJ

Oroblanco · Dec 4, 2011

RWLJ thank you for taking the time to explain and clarify, and a side note here but I don't think anyone much cares about our grammar or spelling. It is what has been said that is important, not how it was said or spelled after all. I make plenty of mistakes in those categories too.

This is a very long reply, so I must beg your indulgence again; thank you in advance.

RWLJ wrote

Hello Oro Blanco
You are a very good critic, but I appreciate your statements nevertheless. Scholars from the Harvard University claim they dated the Paleo-Hebrew in the Middle East to the 12th century BC, which coincides with the accounts from the Egyptians of a Sea People that came in there with a circumcised people. These Sea People were made up of the ancestors of the Greeks, Phoenicians and Israelites, and they truly were a sea going people, no doubt they worked with Israelites that first showed up in the Middle East as well as those who were their neighbors from where they all came from, which was America. In connection with the Paleo-Hebrew or the Ten Commandments in Lunas New Mexico. I learned how to read in my teens from classic funny books that I bought for 15 cents at the time and my English grammar isn’t too good. I noticed in my last post, that I jumped back and forth a little. The author of them Ten Commandments may have been no better in his Hebrew grammar than I am in my English, not having any training in English or its grammar.
You ask a very good question. Why would the Dutchman mislead people in the Superstitious Mountains? I said before he had a stash there, would answer why he could go and come back in such a short time, but that still does not answer why he would mislead by making statements that people would interpret to fit in the Superstitious Mountains. I don’t think he ever said his place was in the Superstitious Mountains, he did mention the Salt River Mountains the same ones as are on the Peralta Map, which others later referred to his statements as applying to the Superstitious Mountains. But even if he did, the Indians were more superstitious about messing with the heart of heaven where the mines were than any other place with the exception of the heart of the earth. I have personally found a manufactured heart, one about for feet long and two small one carved on rocks, at the heart of the earth, and a small heart stone about five inches long and a heart shaped cave at the heart of heaven, and the Hebrew name for that place still means heart in Hebrew.
Why would the so-called Dutchman say things that would mislead the people? Why would any person that found a treasure or rich mines mislead and not give people correct directions to their mine? And why would Christ speak in parables that some would understand and others wouldn’t. A quote from Mathew chapter 13 verses 9, 10 and 11,
“9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.”
I have not seen any of the Indians taking the Spanish Government or any other government to their heart of heaven.
I believe in time I will post, the big reason why the Fugitive so-called Dutchman left clues and misled people, but that would be a lengthy story in itself. And I think it was your wife who asked me to keep my postings short. There are many that hunt different types of treasures that are searching for the truth who work hard and are not greedy, you are right on that point. I am sorry if I offended anyone and did not state things clear. I was trying to help people to stay away from the broad easy road when looking for treasure, and look deeper at the rest of the story.

I believe that Beth was asking you to break up your posts into separate ones, not insisting they be shortened; the idea being to separate the various subject matter so as to more easily follow and understand them.

I take it you are implying that Waltz was deliberately misleading his friends Julia and Reiney? That does not seem logical to me; I can easily understand why he would deliberately mislead the many fellows whom were ready and willing to claimjump or drygulch him, rob him of the gold etc but remember he was trying to tell his friends Julia and Reiney how to find the mine so as to help them. Who would give false information to his friends that he is trying to help?

The Sea Peoples were definitely seaborne, yet hardly on a friendly basis with the Hebrews; if we go by scripture they are the Philistines, and come from Caphtor** where they were brought out of slavery at the same time as the Hebrews. Caphtor or Keftiu is a topic of debate as to identifying the location with Crete, Cyprus and Cilicia most often proposed.

**Jeremiah 47:4 mentions "..the Philistines, the remnant of the country of Caphtor.", also Amos 9:7 states "...Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?"**

The boats used by the Sea Peoples are fairly well depicted on Egyptian wall paintings, which show open topped boats not far different from river boats. Such boats would likely not be much use in cross-oceanic travels being more suited for what they were used, short crossings in the Mediterranean sea and seaborne invasions. They were made up of a number of un-related peoples, whom had been enslaved by the powerful Minoan 'empire' and seem to have risen in revolt at the fall of that state - which probably coincides with the eruption of Thera. A rather interesting theory has been constructed which explains the Exodus and links it to this volcanic event, as a side note. The peoples who made up the Sea People were (according to Egyptian sources)

The Peleset, who were none other than the Philistines that gave their name to Palestine.
The Lukka who may have come from the Lycian region of Anatolia.
The Ekwesh and Denen who seem to be identified with the Homeric Achaean and Danaean Greeks
The Sherden who may be associated with Sardinia.
The Teresh (Tursha or Tyrshenoi - possibly the Tyrrhenians), the Greek name for the Etruscans; or from the western Anatolian Taruisa
Shekelesh (Shekresh, Sikeloi - Sicilians?)

As to their being the ancestors of the Greeks, there is some evidence that a portion of the tribe of Dan did in fact migrate to Greece at the time of the Exodus out of Egypt, another portion of the Greek founding people came from Phoenicia led by Cadmus, who led a colony of Phoenicians and founded the great city of Thebes and introduced the alphabet to the Greeks. I do not know of any evidence that the Sea Peoples became a founding colony to the Greeks however.

Comparing the route taken by Moses and the Israelites out of Egypt, with the coastal regions invaded by the Sea Peoples, I cannot see where any sort of friendly interaction would have been likely. On the Hebrews arrival in the Holy Land, the two peoples were in a state of open conflict for a very long time until peace was concluded in the time of David and Solomon. Even then, the ships built by the kings of united Israel were constructed on the model of ships of Tarshish, so as to be able to safely traverse open oceans, and not after the small open boats used by the Sea People or the Egyptians.

<detail image showing the boats of the Sea Peoples, rather similar to canoes from relief at Medinet Habu, Egypt>

Other Egyptian relief paintings show the Sea People boats fitted out with a single small sail and oars for the crew, somewhat similar to Norse dragon ships but with quite low sideboards which would be quite dangerous in open ocean due to larger waves. The sail would be either taken down or furled when going into combat, just as Vikings, Romans, Greeks etc did. I have some trouble imagining this kind of boat crossing the Atlantic.

As we know the date when the Sea Peoples began invading Egypt (~ 1184 BC) as they are recorded in royal annals, and the date of the eruption of Thera (Santorini) is estimated at 1628 BC (based on dendochronology, tree ring dating) there would seem to be a large difference in the time line. There are some other mentions of Sea Peoples that date considerably earlier than 1184 BC too, much closer to the 16th century period. However some historians are now re-examining the dating of Egyptian and Hebrew history, which would bring these events into a close dovetailing. this theory would have the exodus occur in the reign of Amoses rather than Rameses, which then matches fairly well; and we might note that the name Amoses means "brother of Moses" and thus would fit the legend of Moses being brought up in the house of Pharaoh.

Thank you for the interesting reply and kind words, I hope you have a very pleasant evening.
Oroblanco

:coffee2:

RWLJ · Dec 6, 2011

12-6-11
Oro Blanco
Since I first met you, you are real good at clouding the issues, you quote so much reality or true history and then you try to fortify it with a whole bunch of wild assumptions, which may indicate that you have some sacred cows you are trying to protect. When you see the bigger picture, which you may not be able to without surrendering some of your sacred cows. It appears to me that you want the Lost Dutchman’s Mines to fit the foundation you have built on for some time. My discoveries in time will prove that you are wrong. I have a lot more upon the subject matter than what you think, I have only shown a few things that will help the seekers of truth.
You post pictures of the Battle of the Sea People, as if the story they were telling was putting emphasis on the size or giving a blueprint of their ships. To use that picture as to the size of ships they were using is grabbing at straws, straining on gnats and swallowing camels. The Mediterranean Sea is not known for being one of the calmer seas of the globe. You fail to quote the Sea People that showed up there in the aftermath of the Trojan War that had with them servants or slaves (not partners) that were circumcised, who became the hillbillies and first Israelites in Palestine around 1,200 BC, the time that the first Paleo-Hebrew writing showed up over there, according to those who did their research properly.
You and no other researcher or scholar can show the nation of Israel being slaves in that Egypt over there, nor can you show the Exodus route from that Egypt into Palestine, everything that people have come up with, borders on lunacy. One such person claimed he found some big chariot wheels in the Red Sea, which would have been the Assyrians chariots not the Egyptians. As if no ship ever wrecked dropping chariots into the sea! Research shows the places, where some would place the Exodus, as not being able to even come close to sustaining that many Israelites with their herds and flocks. With the handwriting on the wall written in stone in the Western United States identifies the wilderness and some desert, which the Israelites traveled in for 40 years, and the exact place they arrived at, with 2 men surviving from that first generation, Joshua and Caleb.
There have been many researchers in the Middle East who needed the backing of the Christians, and they saw and fed the Christians what they wanted to see, which has little support by the researchers of recent times with better technology and science. You will have to give up the Bible as being based on true history and not quote it anymore as such, as most objective scholars and biblical archeologists have done, or recognize that that was never the original land of Israel nor that Egypt the original land of the Mizraims. I previously knew before I had the wide support of the scholars that are dealing with today’s reality, that they could not find over there what I found over here. Your take on Paleo-Hebrew incorporates a lot of BS to put it bluntly. At this time I don’t intend to give a corrupt nation the secrets that Christ would not give the world in his day, as I have previously quoted to you.
Why are you using the pen handle of Oro Blanco, did you borrow it from a map a woman had in Missouri? Oro Blanco identifies the area that Abraham was from, an area in the land of the Ur-Chaldeans, and that city of Ur over in the Iraq area, which did not even exist in Abraham’s day. When the rest of the story is told and the facts brought forth, the science and technology of today will show that Abraham’s homeland was the original origin of the Aztecs and that many other tribes claimed, which they called Chicomoztoc (or the seven caves of Chicomoztoc).
In that area you have a place that much history and hundreds of petroglyphs identify. I am sure you have seen the Aztec’s drawing of the site, which is represented in the Molino Document as the place of the temple, I could give you hundreds of clues that would link the dots, but you are already opposing some of those I have given, which is only crippling your ability to see the bigger picture and which would inhibit your ability to read the handwriting on the wall when you see it. Abraham’s place of origin or the Aztecs place of origin isn’t to be confused with an island that once had shallow seas around it, which became their capital city that also had a cavern that branched off into 7 other caverns.
Close to these caverns the Mizraims built 2 treasure cities of Python and Ramses with Israelite slaves, which todays scholars seem to know little about. Even though the 2 places are within a 200 miles of each other and they both tie in with lakes or seas they need to not be confused one with the other. In the area of the Seven Cities there are at least 7 caves, while their motherland island has seven caverns. Between these 2 places are the 7 ravines in the land of the right hand, or the land of Benjamin where Rachel died when Jacob was returning from one of them places to the other.
It is amazing to me that when the top researchers of the world cannot find the Bible to fit the history of the Middle East which is based on a lot of red herring and assumptions made in the beginning of the Dark Ages that copycat named a lot of places in the Middle East, that the world would not start waking up and quit building on those assumptions and start recognizing the bigger picture.
The secret place of the original Christians, which they hid under the term Heaven, is the place the Aztecs and other called Chicomoztoc. It took me years to nail down the temple complex in that place; due to one main factor I did not have the imagination of something being there that could be so big. Even though I found the ruins of the Tayopa church house, it was at the wrong end of the documents that shows where the temple complex was. I was looking for something simple above ground such as the little church house. For a day or 2 I considered the rock foundations of the cabin, that was burnt, could have been used by a priest.
You might want to consider the reason the area of that land was purchased by some people who didn’t believe in the magical BS that the sound thinkers of the past hid their history and themselves behind. They purchased that land because they had no end of evidence and written histories that showed it was the place of Abraham’s roots. They weren’t seeking treasures of gold or silver or ancient artifacts, they purchased it because they believed it was a sacred place, believing it was the place where the renewed awakening would stem from. At that time Aztec history was not tied in with that thinking, which also testifies to the same. This site is the real Oro Blanco.
For your sake and the pen handle you use, don’t cloud issues and create stumbling block for others, and study what I have to say and quit taking it out of context, if you want other and yourself to derive at the truth and be free from the Ignorant traditions of the past. Answer my real challenges and show the world, where the Israelite nations came out of the land of the Mizraims, and where they traveled in the wilderness, and where the original Red Sea was. The honest thinkers worldwide don’t (nor do I) buy in to that delusion of those who are trying to exalt themselves and are rationalizing to the point of stupidity to make the Bible fit entirely into that area. None of the powers of that time published to the world a map or told the whole story that would lead to the plundering of their underworld.
You are casting a negative shadow on the so-called Peralta Stone Tablets, which stem from those who are down on what they are not up on, will not help your subconscious mind to find the place of Oro Blanco that those stone maps lead to. Your real challenge should be to show the world what is right not negate that which you are not up on. But thank you nevertheless for giving me a chance to say more which I really did not have time for. I need to write a number of books but the main reason I haven’t is because I did not want to violate the sound teachings of some of the great ones of the past.
RW

cactusjumper · Dec 6, 2011

RW,

You have a fascinating story going here. I studied the Book of Mormon, as well as the Mormon Religion for a few years, intensively, and haven't read this kind of........story since then. I'm a fan.
Keep up the good work. :icon_thumright:

It would be interesting to read some of your personal history to see how you came to this place and time. :read2:

Take care,

Joe

Oroblanco · Dec 6, 2011

Greetings RWLJ and everyone,

RWLJ - in order not to take points out of context, I will reply in due order, quoting your last message for each. This makes the reply a very long one so my apologies for that. To anyone whom does not wish to read all of it, please feel free to skip it and I will not be offended in any way.

RWLJ wrote

Oro Blanco
Since which you may not be able to without surrendering some of your sacred cows. It appears to me that you want the Lost Dutchman’s Mines to fit the foundation you have built on for some time. My discoveries in time will prove that you are wrong. I have a lot more upon the subject matter than what you think, I have only shown a few things that will help the seekers of truth.I first met you, you are real good at clouding the issues, you quote so much reality or true history and then you try to fortify it with a whole bunch of wild assumptions, which may indicate that you have some sacred cows you are trying to protect. When you see the bigger picture,

If by sacred cows you mean well established historical facts, it will take some solid evidence to throw them out. I have no idea how much on the subject matter you have or don't have. I would like to see someone find the Lost Dutchman mine, but it would have to "fit" with what is proven fact about Jacob Waltz; ie he lived in Phoenix and was able to go to the mine and return in just a few days time. The means it cannot be a long distance away.
RWLJ also wrote

You post pictures of the Battle of the Sea People, as if the story they were telling was putting emphasis on the size or giving a blueprint of their ships. To use that picture as to the size of ships they were using is grabbing at straws, straining on gnats and swallowing camels. The Mediterranean Sea is not known for being one of the calmer seas of the globe. You fail to quote the Sea People that showed up there in the aftermath of the Trojan War that had with them servants or slaves (not partners) that were circumcised, who became the hillbillies and first Israelites in Palestine around 1,200 BC, the time that the first Paleo-Hebrew writing showed up over there, according to those who did their research properly.

Several Egyptian boats have been found relatively intact, and are similar in some ways to the Sea Peoples boats, they are open topped, more in line with river craft than for open seas. This type of boat was used to cross the Mediterranean, but were put in to shore each night, only traveling on the waters during the day. Thus they were not suitable for crossing a wide ocean, where it was not possible to put in to shore each night. I don't know why you chose to link this particular leg to your theory.

RWLJ also wrote

You and no other researcher or scholar can show the nation of Israel being slaves in that Egypt over there, nor can you show the Exodus route from that Egypt into Palestine, everything that people have come up with, borders on lunacy. One such person claimed he found some big chariot wheels in the Red Sea, which would have been the Assyrians chariots not the Egyptians. As if no ship ever wrecked dropping chariots into the sea! Research shows the places, where some would place the Exodus, as not being able to even come close to sustaining that many Israelites with their herds and flocks. With the handwriting on the wall written in stone in the Western United States identifies the wilderness and some desert, which the Israelites traveled in for 40 years, and the exact place they arrived at, with 2 men surviving from that first generation, Joshua and Caleb.
There have been many researchers in the Middle East who needed the backing of the Christians, and they saw and fed the Christians what they wanted to see, which has little support by the researchers of recent times with better technology and science. You will have to give up the Bible as being based on true history and not quote it anymore as such, as most objective scholars and biblical archeologists have done, or recognize that that was never the original land of Israel nor that Egypt the original land of the Mizraims. I previously knew before I had the wide support of the scholars that are dealing with today’s reality, that they could not find over there what I found over here. Your take on Paleo-Hebrew incorporates a lot of BS to put it bluntly. At this time I don’t intend to give a corrupt nation the secrets that Christ would not give the world in his day, as I have previously quoted to you.

You are mistaken here; I would suggest examining the Egyptian record of the Hyksos dynasty, and the Biblical Archaeological Society, you might be surprised at how much of the Biblical record is now supported by archaeological evidence.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/

RWLJ also wrote

Why are you using the pen handle of Oro Blanco, did you borrow it from a map a woman had in Missouri? Oro Blanco identifies the area that Abraham was from, an area in the land of the Ur-Chaldeans, and that city of Ur over in the Iraq area, which did not even exist in Abraham’s day.

When you join most web sites, you are asked to provide a pseudonym; of the several different nicknames which have been tacked on to me, Oroblanco is the least offensive, and there already was someone going by "Digger". The Oro Blanco district was our favorite place to go prospecting for a number of years, which is how the nickname got tacked on in the first place. No cryptic hidden meaning whatsoever. It means "white gold" and was named for that district and town due to the fact that the gold of that area is so alloyed with silver, nearly 50%, that it is silver colored or whitish, rather than the usual yellow. That said, I have never seen the name Oro Blanco associated with Abraham in any way. I am not aware of any map or woman in Missouri you refer to, so no there is no link.

RWLJ also wrote

When the rest of the story is told and the facts brought forth, the science and technology of today will show that Abraham’s homeland was the original origin of the Aztecs and that many other tribes claimed, which they called Chicomoztoc (or the seven caves of Chicomoztoc).
In that area you have a place that much history and hundreds of petroglyphs identify. I am sure you have seen the Aztec’s drawing of the site, which is represented in the Molino Document as the place of the temple, I could give you hundreds of clues that would link the dots, but you are already opposing some of those I have given, which is only crippling your ability to see the bigger picture and which would inhibit your ability to read the handwriting on the wall when you see it. Abraham’s place of origin or the Aztecs place of origin isn’t to be confused with an island that once had shallow seas around it, which became their capital city that also had a cavern that branched off into 7 other caverns.

If by "opposing" you mean that I find several details of the theory you present not to be in agreement with known historic facts, then correct.

RWLJ also wrote

Close to these caverns the Mizraims built 2 treasure cities of Python and Ramses with Israelite slaves, which todays scholars seem to know little about. Even though the 2 places are within a 200 miles of each other and they both tie in with lakes or seas they need to not be confused one with the other. In the area of the Seven Cities there are at least 7 caves, while their motherland island has seven caverns. Between these 2 places are the 7 ravines in the land of the right hand, or the land of Benjamin where Rachel died when Jacob was returning from one of them places to the other.

The two cities built by pharaoh have been identified, and are in the Nile Delta region. There are no caves in the Nile Delta region. How does this fit with your theory? Side note here but the names are Pithom and Pi-rameses, not Python and Rameses, but this is not an important point. It is notable that their ruins are right in the very area where the Hyksos were beseiged when the native Egyptians were trying to drive them out.

I am going to skip some of your post, which does not require any reply;
RWLJ also wrote

The secret place of the original Christians, which they hid under the term Heaven, is the place the Aztecs and other called Chicomoztoc. <snip> This site is the real Oro Blanco.

So now your site is also Oro Blanco, as well as Tayopa, the mines of Tumacacori, the lost Dutchman and lost Adams? Why did you not mention this earlier? The Oro Blanco of record is located in Santa Cruz county, quite close to the border of Mexico. I don't know why you have now chosen to link that place to your site?

RWLJ also wrote

You are casting a negative shadow on the so-called Peralta Stone Tablets, which stem from those who are down on what they are not up on, will not help your subconscious mind to find the place of Oro Blanco that those stone maps lead to. Your real challenge should be to show the world what is right not negate that which you are not up on. But thank you nevertheless for giving me a chance to say more which I really did not have time for. I need to write a number of books but the main reason I haven’t is because I did not want to violate the sound teachings of some of the great ones of the past.

I would suggest that you read up on some of the discussions that have taken place on the Peralta stones here on T-net, and on the LDGM forum; especially this thread:
http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1435
The 'shadows' being cast on the stone tablets are not coming from me but from the cloudy history of the stones themselves. I have never seen a thing on the stones that indicates any reference to Oro Blanco, which has never been lost to need a map to find it. It seems like your theory is evolving as you go along, connecting dots which really do not go together, as for instance you now include Oro Blanco when you never once mentioned it before.

In case you had not noticed, the 'audience' here is largely made up of a group of treasure hunters, and you seem to be presenting a rather large theory that is more in the line of a religious-historical treastise than anything treasure related. I suspect that is why Joe asked you about why you are posting it here, rather than in a religious or historical forum where you might debate the issues with religious and history experts. While many of us treasure hunters have a deep interest in history and some in religious history, it is mostly directly related to our interest in hunting for lost treasures. As for instance a couple of examples where religious history and treasure are intertwined, the fabled mines of King Solomon, or the Cave of Treasures of the patriarchs. I am a bit surprised that you did not include the Cave of Treasures, but perhaps you have found that too?

** For anyone not familiar with the Cave of Treasures, the tomb of the first patriarchs, here is an online English translation:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bct/

As to how this ties in with the Molina document, there are some issues; for instance there is no mention of any Aztecs anywhere on the document or map, and there are reasons to suspect the Molina document itself is a fraud. It is never profitable to build a theory upon a fraudulent foundation, for the whole can come toppling down. I fail to see why you have linked so many divergent sites and histories all to a single place, which I presume is located in Utah? Have you ruled out the possibility that the rock engravings may have been made by native Indians? There were fairly advanced native Amerindian cultures who lived in Utah as well as across the southwest, is it not possible that some (if not all) of the symbols you have found were made by them and not wandering Hebrews or Mizraims?

At any rate I look forward to reading your book, or books if you should decide to break it down into several which may well be a good idea. Thank you for the very interesting replies, and I wish you a very pleasant evening.
Oroblanco

:coffee2:

Cubfan64 · Dec 6, 2011

RWLJ - I would like to echo Mrs. Oroblanco's comment that it would really make it much easier to read your posts if you would include some paragraphs with line spaces in between.

I know it might not seem like a big deal, but when reading long posts, it quickly begins to feel like one is reading a great big run-on sentence and the thoughts of the writer become very jumbled in the reader's mind.

mrs.oroblanco · Dec 7, 2011

Cubfan,

Thank you - that is exactly what I was trying to say. I was reading the same sentence two or three times, or skipping a sentence, the further I read.

RW,

12-6-11
Oro Blanco
Since I first met you, you are real good at clouding the issues, you quote so much reality or true history and then you try to fortify it with a whole bunch of wild assumptions, which may indicate that you have some sacred cows you are trying to protect.

First of all - all "seasoned" treasure hunters have their sacred cows - its just the way it is.

However - I question - deeply, when a treasure hunter - or even a historian like some of the good folks we all know, DON'T have sacred cows.

A person who is either seeking history, or searching for long lost information, quite often, has resources and evidence that they hold close to the vest, especially when one is looking for corroborating evidence, or conducting a search.

You, however, don't seem to do that, so, I have to echo CactusJumpers question - the same as you were asked in person.

WHY? Why do you want to "impart" all this information? Personally, if I was looking for the Lost Dutchman, or any other lost mine, REAL information, as you put it, would certainly NOT be on a public forum. Certainly, I might talk to folks I trust, in private, but certainly not in a whole group of unknowns.

Are you looking for confirmation? You don't seem to, as you think everything is 10 miles from Jordan, Utah. Are you looking for information? It doesn't seem so, as, you seem to think you can put your finger on every treasure that has ever been lost.

Are you looking for financial backing? You certainly won't get any from THIS public forum, I don't think.

Are you looking for a partner? I doubt that anyone (and I may be wrong), here, would EVER buy the fact that all these lost mines are in a 10 square mile circle from where you live. (especially since you are talking about lost mines that have never been lost - OroBlanco is NOT lost, never has been in the 40 years I've been around).

So - are you writing a book - where you can say that you talked to certain folks, throwing known names around? Nobody in THIS circle is going to lend their names to your ideas.

I would really like to know what your motives are here. It would help to understand what you are trying to achieve.

Thanks,

Beth

RWLJ · Dec 7, 2011

12-4-11
Hello Joe
You ask some very good questions. I have asked myself a couple of times, am I operating from greed, and am I using an excuse that I don’t want the world fighting over places here as they are doing in copycat places in the Middle East. When you see the fights that have gone on between Mel Fisher and the state of Florida and many others and what is going on now between the Jesuits and a South American government and having read about the ancient battles that were fought over the heart of heaven and the heart of the earth. Maybe I am just a greedy coward. Then on the other hand I may have common sense to not want to help history repeat itself.

A number of churches would oppose the truth of my discoveries, having invested heavy on assumptions that were built around a part of true history, and these churches even though they opposed the truth that made these discoveries possible along with the rest of the churches that think they are the only true church would think that which is at these 2 sites should belong to them, and would think they should have senior rights to them sites. I have already experienced this with one church and some of its members, saying that I should turn over one of those sites to them because they were the true church. I am not here to pick on any churches, I am sure a lot of them are doing a lot of good. Churches in general indoctrinate their people in a way, along with not being rewarded for thinking outside of what their church teaches, they fail to teach their people to think for themselves and seek the truth and stand on the truth above all else.

Governments today are as capable of being as ruthless as the Spanish conquistadors in taking control of what is discovered by others, through their puppets or cronies who would support their power in doing such. Other archeologists and historians from other countries recognize the bias in America stemming from the Smithsonian Influenced by John Wesley Powel.

Years ago Barry Fell who was working with Celtic or Ogham Script in America, wanted me to send him photographs that I had of some plates, which I wouldn’t send him. I was not willing to give him stuff to translate with his bias, unless he was willing to look at the whole picture of what made it possible and why these plates were found.

On the other hand there was another John Brewer not the one involved in the Adam’s Diggings this one was of Moroni, Utah, he gave Paul Cheesman a professor from the BYU a box with plates in it wrapped in cedar bark and sealed with pine gum. Some researchers involved in the matter were telling me that the carbon dating on the bark showed it was very old. I told them I did not want to burst their bubble but if they were interested I could give them some interesting information that tied in with the bark. They said they were interested in what I could say upon the matter. So I told them that I was with that John Brewer, when we were hiking on a mountain west of Manti Utah, and we came across a cave and inside the cave in the back of it under a little loose dirt was an Indian bed made of cedar bark. He had on a big army jacket full of big pockets; he took a bunch of that bark and stuffed some of his pockets full. I asked him why he was doing that, and he said ‘to get a test to see how old it was’. It was some time after that he gave Paul Cheesman the box wrapped in cedar bark and pine gum. There is evidence that some doctor created some phony plates in Mexico with a mix of Indian writing and writings of Joseph Smith claimed was on the Book of Mormon plates. This would support some of your statements. I personally knew the man who was involved with the plates from Mexico that were displayed at the BYU for a while. I visited him when he was in the Chiapas Prison for digging up artifacts etc. in Mexico, he had done quite a bit of research to try to prove the Book of Mormon, his first name was Jose, and he was trying to convince me that the city of Bountiful of the Book of Mormon was Palenque Mexico. He was a likeable guy, but his reasoning was of such that I felt ashamed for him.

I don’t know of any Mormon scholars that played counterfeit games, but I do know of several that became disenchanted with the history or the foundation that the church was built upon. But in the days of Brigham Young he told people to cover up certain places, saying that the world was not ready for it. I think he should have said the Mormon people were not ready for it and could not handle it. Maybe he understood that it could affect both. Joseph Smith has the Book of Mormon saying that the Jaredites were the first people that came here, and later on he had Adam here and the Garden of Eden in Jackson County Missouri, Missouri is not the place of the Garden of Eden or the New Jerusalem. During the time of John the Revelator the inland seas in that area were drying up and it states that there would be no more seas there in the last days, the statement in Revelation concurs with the Aztec history. Was Joseph Smith camouflaging information that came through the Jesuits, and made some wrong assumptions to start with about where that information fit?

When King Carlos evicted the Jesuits from New Spain in 1767, there were Jesuits prior to that time that saw what was coming and moved into the New England states. They had failed to set up a constituted republic in New Spain. They infiltrated both the masons and churches. Benjamin Franklin belonged to a secret society that was of or from the Rosicrucian Order that was established by independent free thinking Jesuits. These Jesuits played a leading role in educating our founding fathers. They kept their past credentials or ties with the Catholic Church under cover for at least 2 reasons, 1 they did not want to get hung by the Protestants who came to America to escape the Catholic Church, 2 they had lost faith in the Catholic Pope or Church. Masonry, and some churches, was an ideal front for them. One of my own ancestors quit being a Jesuit and some of his descendants became ministers in Protestant churches.

There were Jesuits who gave Howard Hunter before he became president of the Mormon Church for a short time, a bunch of plates that had been dug up in Michigan. I understand that the church gave them to the state of Michigan. I don’t know this, but I assume the reason they did this because it was embarrassment to them and there was not anything in them they could use to substantiate the Book of Mormon or their Scriptures. I may be wrong and I don’t know this, but I believe that Joseph Smith was taught by or through the Influence of a Jesuit and made a covenant under penalty of death not to reveal what he was told or by who he was taught. He first claimed he was showed things by a Nephite then he claimed that it was Moroni that showed him things. I think it was a Jesuit that told him certain things and had him under a covenant. He was an opportunist and grabbed anything he could get ahold of and camouflaged what he was taught to not violate his oath with the Jesuit who taught him for about a 4 year period. He answered the ideas of the day and incorporated them in the story to help camouflage and protect him from violating his agreements and may have been ok or even had the agreement from his teacher. He once said on the stand in front of his sub-leaders ‘if I was to tell you who I am and what I know you would holler blasphemy and there are those on this stand that would seek my life.’

Until we know all the facts of what went down, we need to not use Mormonism one way or another to qualify or disqualify, but let all things stand on its own merit. Mormonism had no influence on any discoveries I have made. To make a long story short, when I discovered the Underworld, I first thought I was the first one in a very longtime; it was not very long until I realized that I was a Johnny-come-lately, the Jesuits and the Knight Templars had both beat me in such a discovery. I found a shaft with horse skeletons in it and I gave a bone to a friend of mine who said he had it tested at the University of Arizona and it showed an age of 350 plus or minus 25 years. I assume that those skeletons were hidden in that shaft to hide the evidence of the riders being there. I saved out 10, 4 gallon, plastic buckets of bones, mostly teeth and a few other bones like the pedal bone of a horse foot. But what surprised me the most, was that close to that area and along a shoreline were notched rocks and part of the story carved in stone as it is told in the Count of Monte Cristo.

When I got into cryptograms and cyphers I could not believe nor have I ever read such an ingenious story as that story brought forth by Alexander Dumas, obviously with the help of one or more Jesuits who had found the original hill of Monte Cristo in the first Mediterranean Sea, not the new one we have between new Asia, new Africa and new Europe. I have friar maps that show that Ta shaped lake with Asia, Africa and Europe around it, in a basin land in the Western United States. National Geographic showed some maps along with a map of today’s Mediterranean Sea. The newest which was a Ta map did not fit as good as all the rest of the old maps of the Mediterranean. When you have seen what I have seen you will know the obvious reason why. Mind you that Asia means a She Ass, Europe come from the Greek word for Burnt Face and Africa means the Shadow of God, at least according to some scholars.

The hill of Monte Cristo is in the shape of a Jawbone of an Ass. The story of Sampson is a metaphor told in a way to not bring the wrath of the Greeks upon their heads. I have seen records from the Vatican showing Sampson fighting at that place of Troy in the Trojan War, which Judges 15 calls Ramath-Lehi. On the side of that hill was the field that Abraham purchased for a burial place. Sampson drank from a hollow place in that Jawbone and revived himself. There you have the hill close by where Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by the 2 Mighty Twins, that hill was called Ramath-Lehi in the Bible. Abraham was the Father of Lehi or the place of Ramath-Lehi.

Here I ask the question, did a Jesuit teach Joseph Smith about Abraham who was given the Promised Land who was the father at Lehi that he camouflaged in the story of the Book of Mormon and called Gomorrah, Cumorah? Is the whole Book of Mormon a camouflaged decorated story putting the Promised Land back in America where it belongs? Was Joseph Smith caught between a hard rock and a hard place, in trying to do what he thought was a preparatory work? Did he make a lot of assumptions with the information he was given? Did he get carried away with the power of his influence? Was he killed by those who thought he went too far and was misusing what he was given? Was Mormonism a branch that went wild from one or more independent Jesuits? Was Joseph Smith influenced by Benjamin Franklin and the women he had? Was he shown records that the Jesuits had from the hill of Monte Cristo, which he called Hill Cumorah and Hill Rama? Did he hide the events under a magical spin that the real history of Christianity was somewhat hid under? Was he trying to figure out and find the real place where the Israelites lost their final battle? Did he give a hill in New York and yet describe a hill, in private, more carefully to not violate the source of his information, information that coincides with other records?

Before anyone throws rocks at any religion, as I have done at the Mormons and others, is not too smart until we know a lot more. Just remember Edmund Dante is a code for The World of the Red Cross. A map of that place is carved in stone in Palenque Mexico. Just remember that the history of this world was imprisoned and hidden out of sight from those that loved the bible and its history by the sellouts that loved the flat world mentality, a people there which were once a friend to those in the land of the Red Cross. After making discoveries I quit throwing stones at religions from the Jesuits to the Mormons, not that I agree with the course that either organization is taking today.
I once convinced a Jesuit Priest, who marveled at what I showed him and he broke down and cried, another time I gave a Stake President of the Mormon Church a published Book of Enoch and I marked in it the places it fit and talked about in the west, sometime after that I bumped into him and he said ‘I read the book and what you marked out fits and I believe it.’ I once showed an influential lawyer who started one of the airlines in the west, a picture of a mosaic on the floor of one of the oldest Christian churches in new Asia, a picture from the Biblical Archeology magazine, and how that mosaic picture showed a place in first Asia and how well it fit the places I was showing him, and right while I had him at that place showing him the picture he counted seven layers on one side of the mosaic, while I was showing him the seven layers of stratus on the west side of that place, and he told me ‘be sure and tell your wife (a person he was impressed with) that I pointed this out to you before you showed it to me’, and he asked me ‘are you writing this information and your knowledge down, you need to if you haven’t, your knowledge needs to be known and not lost.’

I was once at the place that Vendyl Jones had in Arlington Texas, and showed the Rabbi there a picture that I took of Jacobs Pillar Stone and Abrahams Altar that Ezekiel describes where he went north of the place and looked eastward and saw the Cherubim that still sit there as he described. I have had at least 2 Rabbi with tears in their eyes after 2 hours of talking with them and showing them things, who both gave me their blessings. I was raised with prejudices against the Catholics, but when I looked at the imagery at that church house in Tubac south of Tucson things, that in my younger days I was told were idols, and saw how realistically they portrayed the original places of Israel I have been in awe of how accurately tradition has been carried down. To a lot of people the Bible may not be much more than an idol if they fail to understand any of it or apply its moral teachings. You tell me who today can be trusted and who would even appreciate that which would be a threat to their modern day teachings. People are more interested in their social status and their security in the world than to become a sore thumb for the truth.

I have had my sacred cows in the past, when reality ripped them from me I wondered if I had anything to live for. I had 5 children at the time and a wonderful wife; I decided then that I had started something and that I needed to make life more meaningful for them if nothing else. I found some solace or comfort in what the founding fathers stood for, and I looked for a place where I figured I could best raise my family and give them a better future. I had recently left Nicaragua before the Sandinistas took it over, I had a beautiful little plantation that was just starting to be fruitful and 8,000 acres that I intended on making productive, but I knew that my home there was in a strategic place, the Sandinistas war against Samosa ended on my door step and my place became a place occupied by the Sandinistas Military. So I looked for a place I thought would be the safest to raise my family in the future and finally bought a place, not looking for gold or silver, that was pretty nice and stumbled across things that many others were looking for.

At a previous place I purchased, as I had mentioned, I found the writing that had led me to the Garden of Eden. Now I had a place that showed the location of the sacred mines of the ancients. With that many blessing coming your way, requires a heavy price, and maybe if I start trying to have understanding for others and plant seeds that others can be as fortunate as I have been. I think the greater happiness is having friends that you can share the truth with, maybe if I plant enough seeds some will fall on fertile soil. My wife cried when we gave up our beautiful place of hard work in Central America. My desire, with the world turning in on itself, is that many people can give up their comforts and what they love and have invested into before it is too late. The heart of heaven in the original Mount Zion is where many have placed wealth that I believe will assist those that will flee to Zion just like the Bible says.

Of any large organizations, a few Jesuits nailed it down and the Mormons got really close. Those that want to keep the standards of morality need to follow the path on the Peralta Stone Tablets and be north of Flagstaff, south of Fillmore Utah, east of the Desert in the Rocky Mountains and west of the Plains. 1847 on the Peralta Stones is when the Mormons entered Salt Lake Valley the very north end of the original Promised Land that Ezekiel describes going from the Great Sea in the North to the Waters of Strife in the South, which are the rapids of the Grand Canyon. The Mormons who are going back to Jackson County, Missouri will be in a fool’s paradise. I will say this much there are people that have too much power who if you showed them certain things it could be as dangerous as when the King of Judah showed the Babylonians what he had in the temple, it wasn’t long before he didn’t have it and his eyes were put out in front of his sons. Do you possibly think that people are much less corrupt today when they show so much corruption in every aspect of life? I am more interested for truth to prevail than to be famous and dead.

If you can build an organized structure of the right people that can protect what I have found or seen and keep it from being taken over by modern Hitlers, I will happily be your tour guide. If I had confidence that you would not play my hand I could at least take you on the same general path according to the Dead Sea Scrolls where Abraham left the land of Ur-Chaldea (young flaming volcanos) crossed the Tarshish Range and the Four Rivers of Eden and was in the first Canaan in 3 days (the homeland of the MexiCannans). For anyone to champion or support the greater truth there is a price to be paid, some see that right up front and are not even willing to consider such a venture. You have to be the judge of where you want to go and how much you want to see. If you got any great ideas to solve my many dilemmas, I am open for council.

There are certain places I do not want to open up any farther unless it can be done using all the science available, and if they are not willing to look at that which is contrary to their traditions they would have no real value for what is there accept to plunder it. You were right there at the rendezvous when I asked some of them what they would do if certain things of value were found, some of them replied they would melt it down. What I am looking for are honorable men of science that can put the future of mankind ahead of their personal appetite. These things have been hid from the corrupt world for a long time. Are we ready to be as some of the Founding Fathers, to sacrifice our good names and fortune and hang together for a bigger cause or be divided by greed and ignorance and embark on something that will get us hung individually. How are you going to keep everybody from claiming everything, and corrupt government from burying it where no one can touch it with the exception of a few of their buddy elite?

RWLJ

mrs.oroblanco · Dec 7, 2011

RW.

I certainly cannot address 22 paragraphs of text, all in one post, however, one thing that I MUST address, first, is your use of Alexander Dumas and the Monte Cristo.

First - the man's first name is Alexandre, not Alexander.

Secondly, he was an author of FICTION (a French) writer of novels)- who, in 1844, I believe (could have the date wrong) wrote Count of Monte Cristo, and was also the author of the Three Musketeers, and some others.

So, your dates, and certainly any information taken from him would be suspect at best.

As far as Barry Fell, I do believe his ideas that Celts and others traded with the natives was indeed correct. However, that said, since you referenced him, you might want to consider the fact that you are talking about THEM coming HERE. Which means, in your own terms - that THIS was not the center of where it all happened.

They came from SOMEWHERE else. This obviously means that they did not originate in Utah.

I will address some other factors later, when I have a little more time.

Beth

Crow · Dec 7, 2011

Hello All

This theory is nothing really new.

This has been all told before by other believers in one form or another.

It is an Americanised rehashed version of what William Comyns Beaumont proposed theory in the 1940's. The concept was later taken and adapted to support to many belief systems that did not believe in orthodox history. Mainly for their own ulterior motives to support their philosophical or religious beliefs.

The Anglo Isrealism concept of the early 1870s which later spread to the United States, heavily influenced groups in the United States that the history of the ancient world was a myth and the events of early Christian and Jewish history was transplanted to either Britian or the United States as a attempt to connect events in the Bible with the New World.

The theories always used circumstantial evidence by association, often using artifacts out of context, suspect archaeological sites as proof or references taken from fictional books as fact. Misquotes from real documents to support their persudo indoctrinated mantra are common.

Immanuel Velikovsky in his book Worlds in Collision (1950) took the concept further as well as a host of later new age authors.

And another final point many always claim a sort of a world conspiracy to keep the truth from the masses.

As interesting this concept is I fail to see a connection with the original topic.

Sorry RWLJ I just don't buy it.

Good luck with your research.

Crow

Springfield · Dec 7, 2011

Crow said:
Hello All

This theory is nothing really new.

This has been all told before by other believers in one form or another.

It is an Americanised rehashed version of what William Comyns Beaumont proposed theory in the 1940's. The concept was later taken and adapted to support to many belief systems that did not believe in orthodox history. Mainly for their own ulterior motives to support their philosophical or religious beliefs.

The Anglo Isrealism concept of the early 1870s which later spread to the United States, heavily influenced groups in the United States that the history of the ancient world was a myth and the events of early Christian and Jewish history was transplanted to either Britian or the United States as a attempt to connect events in the Bible with the New World.

The theories always used circumstantial evidence by association, often using artifacts out of context, suspect archaeological sites as proof or references taken from fictional books as fact. Misquotes from real documents to support their persudo indoctrinated mantra are common.

Immanuel Velikovsky in his book Worlds in Collision (1950) took the concept further as well as a host of later new age authors.

And another final point many always claim a sort of a world conspiracy to keep the truth from the masses.

As interesting this concept is I fail to see a connection with the original topic.

Sorry RWLJ I just don't buy it.

Good luck with your research.

Crow

I certainly do not support the particulars presented in RWLJ's recent screeds, but IMO, by inference he is correct about the highly speculative field of treasure hunting: 'everything you believe is a lie'. The reason this idea holds up ought to be obvious to inquiring minds.

As to the extension of this rule-of-thumb to orthodox histories, religions, political theory and the inductive sciences ... well, human nature assures us that people 1) seek stability and 2) are extremely conditionable. These unfortunate traits hinder the growth of awareness in exchange for order. The crux: can a small adept group of controllers manipulate the masses? As you suggest, this is not the place to pursue that question, but as they say, 'Inquiring minds want to know'.

Cubfan64 · Dec 7, 2011

RWLJ - just a quick word of thanks for making your posts easier to read. I don't have enough experience to comment on your theories or some of the responses, but I do appreciate your changing the format of your thoughts and ideas.

Oroblanco · Dec 7, 2011

RWLJ wrote

Hello Joe
You ask some very good questions. <snip> How are you going to keep everybody from claiming everything, and corrupt government from burying it where no one can touch it with the exception of a few of their buddy elite?

Thank you RWLJ for taking the time to explain, and for breaking up your reply into separate paragraphs which makes reading it much easier to follow.

Unfortunately the people you are presenting the information to are a rather small minority of the population, with an interest in seeking lost treasures rather than changing the religious and-or political state such as they are. Not trying to tell you what to do, just think your message ought to be presented to a larger audience than what we have here. Not to cast aspersions on fellow treasure hunters, just that we are considerably less than 1% of the population with almost no political or religious authority. Many of us have no desire to see treasures locked away so that no one will ever benefit from them, which is rather the opposite of what you are seeking to do.

As you own the land where the various treasures, ruins etc you refer to are located, they are fairly safe from any treasure hunter bothering them for the time being. If they are as Earth-shattering in context as you say they are, it is reasonable to question whether any one man ought to have the final word as to the disposition of them; perhaps it would be wise to enlist the aid of some government authority or archaeology dept of an university to assume some of the heavy responsibility for such a site. Suppose, for instance, <and God forbid> you were to have a fatal accident tomorrow, who or whom would then be able to provide the protection for your site? I would suggest contacting the Antiquities Division of the State History Department of Utah which has legal authority for such a site:

http://history.utah.gov/archaeology/laws_rules_and_related/legal_authority.html

Good luck and good hunting to you and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

:coffee2:

peralta · Dec 7, 2011

Hello Rwlj,
I always enjoy seeing your maps and pictures of markings you show us.I myself only search for Spanish and Jesuit treasures.you covered a lot of area in your discussion. Im not knowledgeable in the Jesuit mines in Utah.but I do know they are there.
Part of what im searching for is not just the mines on my map but also the books, tablets and texts that are buried. In two separate vaults.they must have had them vaults specialy made and and felt that this information should not be seen by regular man or the church itself.
I AM a catholic and do believe in god.when. I first started searching I asked a Jesuit in Loyola university in California what he could tell me of possible hidden treasures and he told me he has never heard of any.yet while hiking in the mountains we met what looked like priests always hiking in twos wearing straw hats like Jesuits like.they were always in their fiftys with soft hands and nice manicures.
As the years went by and the markings to kept coming I knew I couldn't. Ask them any more questions.in fact the closer I get the more we watch our backs and even have armed lookouts with walk-talkys.Taken care, hope I didn't bore you.

cactusjumper · Dec 14, 2011

RW,

Here's a little more on your John Brewer:

http://books.google.com/books?id=t2...6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=john brewer moroni&f=false

Take care,

Joe

RWLJ · Dec 14, 2011

12-13-11

Oro Blanco

Your statement implying the Hyksos or quoting those that say such is a huge leap of blind faith; it is not even a good example of those that are grabbing at straws. I don’t know of a competent scholar that would agree with such nonsense. Anyone that says that Hyksos were Israelites, are in essence saying that the historical accounts in the Bible are a lie. Where I agree in modern times translations of it have been slanted off center. If I had not of found the Bible to be an accurate history I would have trashed it a long time ago.

Some of the confusion with the Bible stems from Ezekiel 37, where Ezekiel mixes the records or the stick of Judah with the stick of Ephraim. In other words he mixed the history of the Middle East with the history that took place in the Western United States. He hid the history of one place under the cover of another place. They became one in his hand as the Bible says. I challenge any honest scholars to show where Ezekiel Measures a thousand cubits from the temple and is ankle deep in the (correct) Galilean Sea. In time he measures three thousand cubits and is thigh deep in that sea. There are hundreds of examples like this throughout the Bible, that you can’t make fit in the newer land where some Israelites existed.

Jewish and other scholars flatly state they cannot find the Jerusalem of David and Solomon’s time, nor can they find the conquest of Joshua, in the Middle East. The only researchers that claim the entire Bible fits the Middle East are those that are a little less than honest and that are grabbing at straws. What does religion have to do with the Molino Document? It just so happens to be that the Jesuits were religious and hid their treasures in a place that they believed was sacred. Just as an Aztec priest guided those that hid some of the Aztec treasures in a place they thought was sacred. If you don’t understand their religious motives, you are not likely to find the place where they hid their mines and stashed their treasures.

The Molino Document mentions a temple and an Ancient Library. That temple and its library isn’t some simple Jesuit church some place. It consists of an underground structure and contents of antiquity that dwarfs the discovery of Tutankhamun. Those that hid the place were attempting to keep sacred treasures out of the hands of a modern and corrupt Babylon. They did it for the same reason Jeremiah hid the original Ark of the Covenant and Moses’s Tabernacle in the Underworld of the Gentiles. Jeremiah hid it so when the Old Babylonians looked in the Underworld of the Israelites they would not find their most sacred stuff.

Tiberius the Emperor of Rome right after the Crucifixion had his military leader gather all the Judeans out of the original land of Judea, who exported them, and said that he would make that land of Judea so insignificant that it would no longer be recognized. He saw that his statements were fulfilled, records from the British Museum and the archives of Paris. Thirty something years later some of the Judeans gathered together at a new Jerusalem in the Middle East to take on Rome. Those that gathered to that part of the world created Ossuaries or bone boxes, some having as much as seven skeletons in one box. Most of these bone boxes have symbols on them representing the original Jerusalem that Ezekiel describes. They wanted their bones carried back, as Josephs bones were carried back, to the original Land of Promise.

Some of the Jesuits knew the greater story and influenced some to write stories that would prepare people for the greater truth. The Count of Monte Cristo is one of such stories. It is camouflaged and decorated to hide the greater story in the form of a novel that would sell. I don’t know, but I believe Joseph Smith did something very similar. He sure got his people into the right country, regardless of how many mistakes he made. That in a lot of fields was closer to reality than what any other church did in his day. Even after saying that, I question how many Mormons will wake up to the reality of what they are sleeping on, which is hid right underneath their feet. They are likely to hang on for some time to some of his mistakes, such as Jackson County, Missouri being the Garden of Eden.

The Garden of Eden is in Southern Utah. Its four rivers are, the first La Verkin Creek, the second North Creek, the third the North Fork of the Virgin, and the fourth the East Fork of the Virgin. These rivers have the characteristics that the Bible identifies them as having. I have onyx stones from the first river, and have seen good gold from that land. The second river encompasses Ethiopia, which means Burnt Face, and it definitely encompasses some land that had the face of it burnt by volcanic activity. To make a long story short the fourth river the Euphrates, which means Cold River, is colder than the other three rivers.

The ancient Book of Enoch failed to become part of the Bible by one vote. The Book of Revelation, if I remember right, got in by one vote. Both describe areas that are north of the Grand Canyon. The island of Patmos, where John the Revelator resided for a time, the name Pat coming from Patriarch and the name Mos coming from Calf, the original island is in the original Mediterranean Sea. He states in Revelation that there would be no more sea at that place in the last days. The ancient seas around that island are now dried up for the bigger part. You look at surveys of Lake Bonneville you will see that it once had a lot of islands, but as the land of the Grand Canyon and Southern Utah has risen some of the inland seas in Southern Utah have dried up.

When I went to the island of Patmos and read the written records that were there to digest and comprehend the handwriting on the walls at that place it became bitter in my stomach. I knew then just as John the Beloved knew, that there would be a hell of an uphill battle to get the world right side up when it comes to Biblical history. It will probably take those that have a hell of a lot more intellectual strength than I do, or at least the ancient library and the temple on the Molino Document to accomplish such a job.

By the way Mrs. Oro Blanco there appeared to have been a map found in Missouri that showed Oro Blanco on that map. While I may have overstepped the bounds of reality (I was curious how that pen handle came about) I have found white gold at the place the Molino Document describes, but I will take a step back on Oro Blanco. On the other hand you mention the book called The Book of the Cave of Treasures. I have read that book by E. A. Wallis Budge a number of times to say the least. I have also read his book called The Book of the Mysteries of the Heavens and the Earth. These books added a lot of strength to what I have found, after I had nailed such sites down using the Bible.

The Bible talks about the Book of Jasher. The Book of Jasher also helps nail down the original Promised Land. It identifies the Children of Israel fighting in the land of Eve or Havilah, which is west of the Hurricane Fault-line that crosses the Grand Canyon and Southern Utah. Even the Greeks state that their Underworld was below the Hurricane Mountains, which is backed up by the Popol Vuh and other Mayan records.

RW

RWLJ · Dec 14, 2011

12-13-11

Hello Peralta

The above post may answer part of your question. I also suspect that when certain places are opened up we will find a lot of history of the Jesuits who were involved with the mine and the temple, which I think is the greatest of all treasures. I realize I probably offended a few people, but it was to help them. If they want to look for treasure sites they need to get on legitimate paths and look in legitimate places. There are plenty of treasures out there that are still lost, that can be found. And I believe that in time they need to be found, which will help correct true history, which I believe is the greatest of all treasures.

RW

Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

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TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

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