Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[Oroblanco]

12-29-11

Oro Blanco

You are really good. You are one-hundred percent right on the meaning of the name Lebanon. I took your same stand over fifteen years ago, against a Jewish scientist and researcher. He claimed Lebanon the mountain not the name was identified as the heart or center. Three days later I was talking to him again, and he told me my take on the meaning of the name was right. If I remember right even the name Albino ties back to the same root meaning which is white. I am sorry if I didn’t say quite what I meant. I was referring to the mountain called Lebanon having different identities not the name.

The original mountains called Lebanon are literally white mountains all the time, not just when they have a little snow on them. They go from Snows Canyon northwest of St George, Utah and make up a good part of Zion National Park and reach the Paria River in southeastern Utah. They are known as the White Navajo Sandstone. The Horse Map, the white Peralta Stone Tablet, represents the area of that white sandstone.

The Great White Throne in the Book of Revelation, if you get into the Greek, is identified as having red rock sitting on it with an emerald colored rainbow around it. Other records identify the rainbow as green trees that circle around it. You can see this heavenly (or raised up) place in Zion National Park called West Temple. This isn’t to be confused with what a protestant minister called the Great White Throne deeper into the canyon. This protestant minister was close but not quite correct. Zion is the geological center of the strata between the lower strata of the Grand Canyon and the higher strata of Bryce Canyon. The Mayans as one source refers to that place as the Heart of Heaven.

The Book of Revelation refers to a great wall with twelve foundations of stone, which is the one on the west side of Zion National Park. Zion National Park geological maps show that wall with twelve foundations of stone. A number of researchers independent of different faiths have independently recognized descriptions in the Book of Revelation to fit in the Zion National Park area, unlike any other place on the globe. There was one Mormon who believed that Zion National Park was part of the Mount Zion described in the Bible and his claims got back to Brigham Young, and Brigham Young said that was not Zion. So the local Mormons in the area for some time called it Not Zion.

Sometime after that Brigham Young obviously had a change of heart, for in the St George Tabernacle he said that Washington County (southern Utah) was the tail-stake of Zion but a day would come that it would be the head-stake of Zion. There after the name Not Zion was dropped and it was just called Zion.

When I was gathering this information, having done my own independent research, I visited Zion National Park knowing that ancient records identified it as part of real Mount Zion. After obtaining information at the Zion National Park visitor center, I started talking to one of the workers there who had a park uniform on, telling him a little bit about what I knew about the place that I had learned from ancient history. He reacted as if I was completely nuts. At this time an Indian lady walked over who was also wearing a park uniform, she was indignant with his attitude towards me and she pointed at me and said “what this man teaches is the history and the beliefs of our tribe”. I was surprised by her actions to say the least. I turned and asked her what tribe she was from, and she replied that she was of the Iroquois Tribe. I found out that the man this Iroquois lady was indignant with was a newly returned Mormon missionary.

It is going to be hard to find the treasures of Lebanon, that the Fugitive so-called Dutchman found through the help of the Indians, who left a lot of clues from the Molino Document to the Peralta Stones, if you don’t understand the true history from either side of the globe. Lebanon is the heart of the original Mount Zion in more ways than one. I don’t intend to try to prove all the facts by playing all my cards by giving someone a clear map to the so-called Dutchman Mine and treasures. I will try to answer what questions that I feel are reasonable for me to answer. Thank you for your question and happy treasure hunting to you.

RW

I take it then, that you do not recall the name of that professor, who gave that alternate definition of the meaning of the name "Lebanon"? If you can not remember, it is not a major point, but I will have to stick with the only definition that I can find sources to support, which has it as "white mountain".

On several other issues, I have to say that I remain respectfully, unconvinced. To relocate so much of Old World history and topography into the American southwest, leaving no explanation of what is in Jerusalem, the Negev, the Golan etc takes more than just a coincidence of names. How do we explain the very ancient traditions as well as real archaeological evidence that these sites in the Middle East have, if we take the position that the mountains of Lebanon are really in Utah? Do we now take the position that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, a site held holy in three major religions, is all false and erroneous? There are Roman records that can be traced to locate the holy sites of the ancient Jews and Christians too; should we now discard the histories of Tacitus and Josephus? In my opinion your theory needs some serious re-examination.

Speaking only for myself, I am not searching for the treasures of Lebanon; if I were to seek them, my first place to look would be the mountains of Lebanon north of Israel, and were I to look in the Americas at all, then it would be somewhere in the Chesapeake bay drainage basin, for reasons which I will not explain here. Really I think you have been attempting to lump together far too many un-related lost treasure and lost mine stories, which can lead one into error. You seem to place a great deal of reliance on the Peralta stones, which are of rather doubtful provenance at this point, and upon the Molino document, which many have dismissed as fraudulent including the US Parks Service. Doesn't it give you pause, that so many have raised doubts over these artifacts? Your theory would have us discard the real Jacob Waltz who had a homestead in Phoenix, was seen selling rich gold ore and had the famous ore in his possession under his death bed, in favor of someone you refer to as the "Fugitive" and a story of identification theft etc all of which makes a great story but falls short on hard evidence.

At the bottom line, much of this debate is not of much weight for a rich gold mine is a very good thing to have, regardless of what name is tacked onto it; names for mines are granted by the discoverers thereof, at the caprice of the individual(s) so one might call it the mine of Ophir and Solomon or the Bunny Rabbit mine and it matters not a whit to the amount of gold that it may produce.

I doubt we are ever going to be able to agree on this alternative history as you have presented it, but I thank you for presenting it; and for at least attempting to remember where you obtained that different definition of the name Lebanon. I hope that we can agree to disagree at least, for there is certainly no animosity felt from this end and the discussion did get me to dig out the books which is always beneficial for me. I wish you and everyone reading this a very happy and prosperous New Year, and I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

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[Springfield]

..... Speaking only for myself, I am not searching for the treasures of Lebanon; if I were to seek them, my first place to look would be the mountains of Lebanon north of Israel, and were I to look in the Americas at all, then it would be somewhere in the Chesapeake bay drainage basin, for reasons which I will not explain here. ....

That's interesting. Finally an idea not rooted in the Finger Lakes cult. By the way, are you still working on that book you mentioned a few years ago? As I recall, it had a diffusionist theme.

 

[Oroblanco]

Yes, but now very far from finished due to a major <personal> setback when my old PC died; I had kept backup copies on CDs, but apparently the computer was not really recording them, sort of "pretending" and I never bothered to check them on a different computer so have lost a number of photos that can not be replaced; the end product is not going to be what was intended. I don't think the Diffusionists will like it either, for I don't propose large colonies of Europeans and Chinese setting up shop in America, mainly focused on explorers and accidental visits. Other projects eat up most of my time at the computer, so it will be some time.

Good luck and good hunting Springfield and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[FEMF]

Yes, but now very far from finished due to a major <personal> setback when my old PC died; I had kept backup copies on CDs, but apparently the computer was not really recording them, sort of "pretending" and I never bothered to check them on a different computer so have lost a number of photos that can not be replaced; the end product is not going to be what was intended. I don't think the Diffusionists will like it either, for I don't propose large colonies of Europeans and Chinese setting up shop in America, mainly focused on explorers and accidental visits. Other projects eat up most of my time at the computer, so it will be some time.

Good luck and good hunting Springfield and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Hello Roy and Mike
Can one of, or both of you, tell us about the original Mission, that was suppost to have been 35 miles NW of the present Tumacacori Mission. Thanks.
FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

FEMF,

For a good history of the village of San Cayetano Del Tumacacori, try to get a copy of Charles C. Di Peso's book "The Upper Pima Of San Cayetano Del Tumacacori".

"that was suppost to have been 35 miles NW of the present Tumacacori Mission."

I believe the premise of that question is in error.

If you are looking for some specific information, I might be able to help you.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

FEMF wrote

Hello Roy and Mike
Can one of, or both of you, tell us about the original Mission, that was suppost to have been 35 miles NW of the present Tumacacori Mission. Thanks.
FEMF

Hola amigo Frank,
I don't have anything on a location 35 miles NW of the current Tumacacori Mission, the "original" mentioned by father Kino appears to be on the opposite side of the river and not too far from the current location; another Tumacacori mission has some mention as being S or SW of Tucscon in the hills some distance from the one on the river but the only info I have on it suggests that it was never a full mission, more of a visita for a mining settlement.

DiPeso's 1956 book makes a good case for his location, but others' research make a good argument that he is mistaken, still a good history source however.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"DiPeso's 1956 book makes a good case for his location, but others' research make a good argument that he is mistaken, still a good history source however."

You are, IMHO, correct. That would be why I italicized "history". I also believe his location for the village is wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[FEMF]

Hello Roy and Joe
Thank's to both of you, I'll check it out!Take care.
FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

FEMF,

Hello Roy and Joe
Thank's to both of you, I'll check it out!Take care.
FEMF

This would be your other source for the information you seek:

http://www.seymourharlan.com/My_Homepage_Files/Download/san cayetano ijha pdf published.pdf

I would recommend this book:

"Where the Earth and Sky Are Sewn Together: Sobaipuri-O'odham Contexts of Contact and Colonialism"
by Deni J. Seymour.

Ms. Seymour would be one of the "others" that Roy mentioned. Actually, the primary other.

That should supply you with enough history to last awhile.

We originally discussed this in 2010, here:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41291.msg2339662/topicseen.html#msg2339662

One other thing......Paloporado contained burials mixed in with residential sites. That would negate Paloporado as being the site for Cayetano del Tumacacori as DePiso concluded.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[FEMF]

FEMF,

Hello Roy and Joe
Thank's to both of you, I'll check it out!Take care.
FEMF

This would be your other source for the information you seek:

http://www.seymourharlan.com/My_Homepage_Files/Download/san cayetano ijha pdf published.pdf

I would recommend this book:

"Where the Earth and Sky Are Sewn Together: Sobaipuri-O'odham Contexts of Contact and Colonialism"
by Deni J. Seymour.

Ms. Seymour would be one of the "others" that Roy mentioned. Actually, the primary other.

That should supply you with enough history to last awhile.

We originally discussed this in 2010, here:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41291.msg2339662/topicseen.html#msg2339662

One other thing......Paloporado contained burials mixed in with residential sites. That would negate Paloporado as being the site for Cayetano del Tumacacori as DePiso concluded.

Good luck,

Joe

Thank's Joe
This is the kind of background I was looking for!
Take care.
FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

FEMF,

No problem. I looked into this story a bit, but there are others who have dug much deeper than I have.
I, pretty much, lost interest after reading and researching the problems with the document. IMHO, it's a total fraud.

Mike, Don Jose and Roy probably know more about it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I, pretty much, lost interest after reading and researching the problems with the document. IMHO, it's a total fraud.

How can we make judgements as to whether a handwritten notation COPY is a fraud or real? You are welcome to your opinion, but unless an original document could be examined for comparison, I don't think we can say what the Molino document is.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I agree with Roy here. Every reason the NPS uses to discredit the document is BS. The orientation of the paper, the handwriting style, etc are due to the fact that it is a handwritten copy of the original document, and as with many maps or documents that lead to wealth, it would have been pretty heavily encoded. Encoded in the original document would have been instructions on how to read the map. The biggest problem is that the copier may not have copied the original document exactly, and lost some of the coded parts not knowing they were significant (things like elongated letters, symbols, etc). The Molina Document may be a good copy of an original and still be useless.

It's also possibly a fake.

Until someone can prove they have successfully decoded the document (not likely since it supposedly leads to a treasure), it will remain an interesting artifact.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike and Roy,

"Directions - year 1598 to 1658 - these Directions pertain to Tumacácori: The Mine of Tumacacori called the Virgen of Guadalupe. It is a league and a half, beginning at the main door of the temple on the south. From the waters of San Ramón measured to the left (it is) 1800 rods to the north."

It is the very start of the document that convinces me that it was a fraud. It's an opinion, it's mine and no one is forced to agree. I should think that the dates given above, along with the information that followed those dates would give anyone pause.

It remains a good topic for debate.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe, this part of the Molina document,

year 1598 to 1658

- is the first red flag for you, I would presume? Based on the published history of the Jesuits, these dates are far too early for Tumacacori, based on our references. Now not to take the position that the document must be real, but if you read that again, without necessarily attaching Jesuit history to them, rather as the way one might say, (paraphrasing) "..year 1776 to 1805" followed by "Lewis and Clark, explore to Pacific". Then the dates are not saying that Lewis and Clark crossed the continent in 1776, just referring to a period of time, in which part of what is being referred to happened. I am fairly convinced that is the way that part of the Molina document was intended to mean, not that Jesuits were mining at Tumacacori in 1598.

1658 is still too early based on Kino's explorations, however there is some hint that some kind of missionary activity was taking place earlier, as in that mysterious statement in (if memory serves) father Keller's note written when impending death looked certain; referring to "eighty years work" being lost, or years longer than the math. Jesuits (and Franciscans) were certainly present in Sonora in 1658.

I agree that it is a fit subject for discussion, but without an original, we are debating someone's hand written notes as if they are supposed to be the original, a rather silly proposition if you think about it.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

The problem is that the first church building was not constructed until after the Pima rebellion in 1751.

While the native mud hut that served as a place of worship, and certainly would fall into the strictest meaning of the word "temple", the use of "main door" implies something a little more substantial at the village of San Cayetano.

The church built after 1751 did have a main door, as well as several secondary doors. Many of the "Jesuit" treasure stories confuse the Franciscan mission with the mean building used by the Jesuit's at San Cayetano Del Tumacacori.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

The problem is that the first church building was not constructed until after the Pima rebellion in 1751.

While the native mud hut that served as a place of worship, and certainly would fall into the strictest meaning of the word "temple", the use of "main door" implies something a little more substantial at the village of San Cayetano.

The church built after 1751 did have a main door, as well as several secondary doors. Many of the "Jesuit" treasure stories confuse the Franciscan mission with the mean building used by the Jesuit's at San Cayetano Del Tumacacori.

Well perhaps we have some wiggle room? To borrow from our mutual amigo's early post on this topic, here was the translation he posted:
Directions - year 1598 to 1658 - these Directions pertain to Tumacácori: The Mine of Tumacacori called the Virgen of Guadalupe. It is a league and a half, beginning at the main door of the temple on the south. From the Waters of San Ramón measured to the left (it is) 1800 rods to the north. Some 1200 rods before reaching the mine is a black rock marked with a chisel with these marks on the bottom of the rock . 1200 rods from the cross is the treasure. This is what the writing means. Some 20 rods in front of the rock is a small monument. In a southwest direction from the mine are two rock outcroppings that were knocked down over the mine without more jarring than the placement of gunpowder in the cracks of the rocks, leaving the track obliterated forever. Going over the rocks no one would know where this place is. Inside the mine is a room that measures 50 rods square and in this place is the treasure of our missions. In the middle of the room is the mouth of the mine, the treasure being (both) inside and outside of it: There are 2650 loads of sealed silver and 905 of gold, and there are 40 million in (unsealed) silver. The gold was brought from the Sierra de Guachapa in the vicinity of Tubac: continue forward in the same southerly direction.

Some three leagues from the mine of Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe what is called "Pass of the Janos." In a direction to the south from here, an arroyo starts that empties into the Santa Cruz River. The mine is to the left of the pass. Below the pass are 12 ore crushers and 12 smelters. The mine has one tunnel of 300 rods in length and the tunnel has the name of La Purísima Concepción engraved on it with a chisel. The tunnel runs north and at 20 rods a small tunnel of one hundred rods intersects it, running west. The ore is yellow - ore that is half silver and a fifth part gold. There are some slag pits fifty rods from the door of the mine going north. They found chunks of pure silver weighing from one pound to 5 arrobas (125 pounds). This mine is sealed by a copper door that has some enormous handles. This copper was brought from the Sierra de Guachapa in the vicinity of Tubac and smelted in Tuma-cácori, and the door was carried to the mine on a sledge by oxen. The year 1658. They worked and covered it in 1658 as recorded in the book of works of the mission. It is three leagues from the mine of La Purísima Concepción to the mine of Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe. About halfway down the road in the same direction is what is called The Mine of the Opatas. This mine has one tunnel of four hundred rods and running south along the same course. The ore is mixed with pebbles and after three hundred rods is cut off by a trench. A very large tableland runs from the mouth of the mine toward the setting sun. On its west side is a very large canyon ending on the south side. It has a bore mark that is a half-rod deep. Standing on the south side, you can see the mark on the other side of the canyon. Going one league north from this mark is the Mine of the Opatas of Tumacácori. This is the mark. To the west on the other side of the sierra is the mine of Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe. It is marked by Father S--- R--- on the 12th of the month of December in 1518. This mine was found by a
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41291.msg292757.html#msg292757

When I first read this, or rather a variant of it (from Mitchell) I made the same assumption that it is saying that the mission of Tumacacori is supposed to be standing circa 1658, but it really doesn't say that. It tells of mines, and that they are recorded in the mission book, but does not directly state that the mission is standing at that time and may well mean that the records are in the mission, which is built much later, though the records date earlier. Similar such situations exist all over, for instance at Deadwood court house are records which date to before the court house was built. By the logic used to dismiss the Molina document, all those records must then be forgeries since they are older than the court house.

Perhaps if the notes were more explicit, it would be easier to reject the whole but as it reads, it is not making a statement as so many seem to read into it.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

The Jesuits were said to have hidden any trace of their mining activities prior to their expulsion. No written document has ever been found, to my knowledge, and authenticated. This copy was written to look like it was authentic.....to untrained eyes.

You state it's just a copy, but that's all we have to work with. If you take that document and start what-ifing and perhapsing, you may as well junk the whole thing. There is a good reason why the original, like most treasure related documents, has disappeared.

If this document was in the Franciscan mission records, why was it never exposed before?

Hope all is well,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

The Jesuits were said to have hidden any trace of their mining activities prior to their expulsion. No written document has ever been found, to my knowledge, and authenticated. This copy was written to look like it was authentic.....to untrained eyes.

You state it's just a copy, but that's all we have to work with. If you take that document and start what-ifing and perhapsing, you may as well junk the whole thing. There is a good reason why the original, like most treasure related documents, has disappeared.

If this document was in the Franciscan mission records, why was it never exposed before?

There is no what if, or perhaps involved, just don't read into the document what is not there. It does not say that the mission church was standing circa 1658. Period. We treasure hunters make that assumption, and that assumption would tend to show the document is false, but the assumption is false. The only what if, or perhaps I was mentioning was if there were more specifics in the document, it would be easier to disprove. As it stands, let us not make assumptions that are not there.

If the document was in the Franciscan mission records, and someone like Mitchell found it, why would you expect to find it now? Early treasure hunters had no rules about taking what ever records they fancied, and the Franciscans had no qualms about selling off old Jesuit documents for $1.

I hope all is well with you, we are well and having a most remarkable winter so far.
Roy

 

[FEMF]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

The Jesuits were said to have hidden any trace of their mining activities prior to their expulsion. No written document has ever been found, to my knowledge, and authenticated. This copy was written to look like it was authentic.....to untrained eyes.

You state it's just a copy, but that's all we have to work with. If you take that document and start what-ifing and perhapsing, you may as well junk the whole thing. There is a good reason why the original, like most treasure related documents, has disappeared.

If this document was in the Franciscan mission records, why was it never exposed before?

There is no what if, or perhaps involved, just don't read into the document what is not there. It does not say that the mission church was standing circa 1658. Period. We treasure hunters make that assumption, and that assumption would tend to show the document is false, but the assumption is false. The only what if, or perhaps I was mentioning was if there were more specifics in the document, it would be easier to disprove. As it stands, let us not make assumptions that are not there.

If the document was in the Franciscan mission records, and someone like Mitchell found it, why would you expect to find it now? Early treasure hunters had no rules about taking what ever records they fancied, and the Franciscans had no qualms about selling off old Jesuit documents for $1.

I hope all is well with you, we are well and having a most remarkable winter so far.
Roy

Hello Roy
Have you, or anyone else hear, ever heard of a connection between the San Cayetano Del Tumacacori Mission and a Cross Del Santa Fe?
Thank's again Roy.
FEMF