Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[mrs.oroblanco]

RWLJ,

Interesting read. Are you of the belief that Utah is home to these observations?


Beth

 

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[Oroblanco]

Not if they are not dates and/or are codes.

Mike

What gives them away as codes rather than dates, when it is phrased "Redotero - año MDXCVIII - MDCLVIII " which in my poor understanding of Spanish seems to be saying "years 1598 - 1658"? Not saying that it can not be codes, just fail to see any clue to point that direction. Thank you in advance.

Cactusjumper wrote

In fact, John Mitchell's first book, printed in 1933, which gave an English translation of this counterfeit document, used the words "old town of Santa Cruz" rather than "Santa Cruz River." He evidently learned that the "old town" was not so old after all, and changed the designation to river rather than town in his 1953 book. Regardless, the useage of the words "Río Santa Cruz" date this forgery, whether original or copied, to a time after the Spanish colonial period and long after the Jesuits were expelled from New Spain.

Are you suggesting that Mitchell created the document as a 'pious fraud'? Making up a document he felt should exist? Thank you in advance.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

RW,

Sorry, but my eyes started crossing about 1/3 of the way down your last post, and I couldn't read the rest. What I read was interesting and did bring up one pertinent question. It had to do with this statement:

"At least one Aztec history and language scholar claims that Montezuma the First created the Aztec Calendar artifact. I would put odds in his favor, and I am sure his men were the crafters, and I don’t care if it took them a hundred years what is the big deal. I have got something for you to chew on. The Dutchman took gold out of what has been camouflaged or called the Tumacacori Mine and had it stashed in the Superstitious Mountains where it was more convenient for him to retrieve it when he needed it. He obtained the gold close by where the Adam’s group was digging gold, which is right below the so-called Tumacacori Mines."

What was the name of this "Aztec history and language scholar" who made this "claim"?

Thank you in advance,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

RW,

Here are a few facts: The year 1455 ended the 52-year cycle of of that particular period of the Aztec calendar. That means that cycle began in 1403. Montezuma I was born in 1397. Assuming there was no Aztec calendar prior to 1403, that would mean that Montezuma I carved the first Aztec calendar when he was 6-years old.

Is that, pretty much, what you are professing?

Joe

 

[Infosponge]

Interesting....

Once again forgive my ignorance.

Hello Cactusjumper: Out of curiosity was the name of river called Rio Tubac or (Tvbac) at one time?

In what year this alleged Molina Document copy was first published?

Thanking you in advance.

Crow

[Río Santa Cruz
The river that is today known as the "Santa Cruz River" was not known by that name in the Spanish Period. It was after the establishment of the town of Santa Cruz, located in present-day Sonora, that the river's name changed from "Santa María" to "Santa Cruz." In fact, John Mitchell's first book, printed in 1933, which gave an English translation of this counterfeit document, used the words "old town of Santa Cruz" rather than "Santa Cruz River." He evidently learned that the "old town" was not so old after all, and changed the designation to river rather than town in his 1953 book. Regardless, the useage of the words "Río Santa Cruz" date this forgery, whether original or copied, to a time after the Spanish colonial period and long after the Jesuits were expelled from New Spain.]

Crow,

I would need to look into your question "....was the name of river called Rio Tubac or (Tvbac) at one time?" My initial thought is...no!

I would suggest you go back to the beginning of this thread, as Mike and others pretty well thrashed out the document.

Good luck.

Joe

Good evening to all,

This document located in the DRSW archives and dated 8-14-1766 in fact names the river in question "Santa Cruz (Rio)" http://uair.arizona.edu/item/220181 This date just happens to be one year before the Jesuits were arrested.

Consulta que el capitan d. Gabriel Antonio Vildozola hizo al visitador general d. Jose de Galvez sobre la pacificacion general del Seri y Apaches.
Serial Number: 190-00006
Title: Consulta que el capitan d. Gabriel Antonio Vildozola hizo al visitador general d. Jose de Galvez sobre la pacificacion general del Seri y Apaches.
Author(s): Vildozola, Gabriel Antonio
Date: 08-14-1766
Documentation: Presidio de Fronteras. August 14, 1766. 15p. Copy.
Summary: A description of the indigenous peoples in and around the area from the Gila River on the north to the Yaqui River on the south with some recommendations on how to defeat the Apaches and the Seris of that area. (G. Miller) (1977)
Persons: Vildozola, Gabriel Antonio
Persons: Galvez, Jose de
Places: Sonora
Places: Mar de California
Places: Hiaqui (Rio)
Places: Tepoca
Places: Colorado (Rio)
Places: Papagos
Places: San Miguel (Presidio)
Places: Puerto de Guimas
Places: Altar (Presidio)
Places: Belen
Places: Quirbe
Places: Rate
Places: Potan
Places: Vican
Places: Forin
Places: Vacon
Places: Cocorin
Places: Buenavista
Places: Comuripa
Places: Soaqui
Places: Tecoripa
Places: San Jose de Pinas
Places: Santa Rosalia
Places: Opodepe
Places: Cundeves de Nacion Toape
Places: Opatas
Places: Cucurpe
Places: Cudeva
Places: Santa Ana Poblado de Vecindad
Places: Tubutama
Places: Santa Tereca Ati
Places: Oquitua
Places: Pimas Altos
Places: Pitiqui
Places: Caborca
Places: Visani
Places: Cerro Prieto
Places: Pitiqui (Hacienda)
Places: San Mareial (Paso)
Places: Maranchel
Places: Mogollon (Sierra)
Places: Gila (Rio)
Places: Janos
Places: Terrenate
Places: Tubac
Places: Sonoitac
Places: Tumacacori
Places: San Xavier del Bac
Places: Tucson
Places: Nuevo Mexico
Places: Santa Cruz (Rio)
Places: San Bernardino
Places: Chiguicagui (Sierra)
Places: Embudos
Places: Cuarberachi
Places: Loreto
Places: Chiricagni (Valle)
Places: Penol de Alonzo Perez
Places: San Luis (Valle)
Places: Alamo (Valle)
Places: San Francisco
Places: Ostimari
Places: Sinaloa
Places: Nueva Vizcaya

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola infro: some day I will have to tell you where the lost pearls of Tepoca and it's enormous Gold placers are. Tepoca and it's treasures were lost when it came under siege from the Seris with the help of the Apaches.

It was one of the seven richest mines in the 'golden triangle' . Tayopa, Tepoca,. La Gloria Pan, La Tarasca, Las Pimas, and two others near Caborca.

Sorry for disrupting---- , no, I am not, you mentioned Tepoca first. heheheheh

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Info,

That was not a quote of something I wrote, although I probably wrote the same thing at some point in time. I have read that Father Kino referred to the "Santa Cruz River" around 1700. I believe that statement to be false.

I believe Father Kino called the river the "Santa Maria del Pilar" River. I think it was the Santa Maria into the 1800s, but have not researched the question that well.

Take care,

Joe

 

[kanabite]

RWLJ ,
i have one question , before I comment on anything in regards to your last post.
does the L stand for Lee or Lewis?
thank you in advance.///bob

 

[Infosponge]

Interesting....

Once again forgive my ignorance.

Hello Cactusjumper: Out of curiosity was the name of river called Rio Tubac or (Tvbac) at one time?

In what year this alleged Molina Document copy was first published?

Thanking you in advance.

Crow
-----------------
Crow,

I would need to look into your question "....was the name of river called Rio Tubac or (Tvbac) at one time?" My initial thought is...no!

I would suggest you go back to the beginning of this thread, as Mike and others pretty well thrashed out the document.

Good luck.

Joe

Sorry, but your initial thought in this case is mistaken. Here is a copy of a map done by Joseph de Urrutia, in 1766.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Real Written Lore of Jerusalem

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

This is my understanding - and this particular quote is from information taken from "Archeology in Tucson, 1995" (though I have read this info several times in several different places-this is one I could pull up right away)

Kino named the Río Santa María after the patron saint he
had assigned to the village of Soamca near its headwaters.
The Santa Cruz River acquired its modern name gradually
after 1787,when the presidio of Santa Cruz de Terrenate was
relocated fromthe upper San Pedro Valley to Soamca

Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Info,

Fascinating bit of early New World trivia. Interesting that two people would come up with it. Can you find the name in any other source, such as some writing by the Jesuits or Franciscans?

Beth,

With no real research, yet, I am of the same opinion as you. We have been a little busy, as we have 17 folks coming for Thanksgiving. Hope yours is great.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Joe,

Speaking of Thanksgiving - hope everyone has a good one, and eats too much!!!

Beth

 

[Crow]

Hello all.

Thanks for all the interesting information in regards to history this legend and the mission.

Hello Infosponge thanks for the map and date reference. I have a map very simular if not from the same source but not the clarity as yours. Was not sure of the date.

Here is some references that may of contributed to the legend surrounding the historic mission.

The alleged Jesuit treasure story connected to the Tumacacori church was from a Judge Barnes, who claimed in 1887 a priest from Mercedies in Spain found a doument pertaining to treasure being buried below the floor of the altar at Tumacacori Mission. They allegedly recovered the treasure but was not able to find the mine workings?

Source: Los Angeles Herald, Volume 36, Number 161, 27 September 1891:

There was reports of a rich silver mine in the area claiming it was found by a indian and several miners found large amounts of almost pure sliver...The article told of location of this rich mine "Las Planches de plata" somewhere about 15 miles to Tumacacori and 25 to the Presidio Santa Cruz? The newspaper states that source of the story was from much earlier information dathing back to 1718?

Source; Daily Alta California, Volume 10, Number 75, Wednesday 17 March 1858:

All of these perhaps contributed to the belief of the existance of treasure?

I wonder if this Judge Barnes was a land speculator at one time?

But was there any earlier Spanish sources out there to support these claims?

Thanking you all in advance.

Crow

 

[Infosponge]

Good morning CJ, & Mrs Oroblanco,

Happy Thanksgiving to you both, and all the rest!

This is my understanding - and this particular quote is from information taken from "Archeology in Tucson, 1995" (though I have read this info several times in several different places-this is one I could pull up right away)

Kino named the Río Santa María after the patron saint he
had assigned to the village of Soamca near its headwaters.
The Santa Cruz River acquired its modern name gradually
after 1787,when the presidio of Santa Cruz de Terrenate was
relocated fromthe upper San Pedro Valley to Soamca

Beth

Info,

Fascinating bit of early New World trivia. Interesting that two people would come up with it. Can you find the name in any other source, such as some writing by the Jesuits or Franciscans?

Beth,

With no real research, yet, I am of the same opinion as you. We have been a little busy, as we have 17 folks coming for Thanksgiving. Hope yours is great.

Take care,

Joe

The map is the only case I'm aware of the river being labeled with the name of "Tubac," but there are several documents dated before 1800 labeling the river with the name "Santa Cruz." Here is another example from 1789. http://uair.arizona.edu/item/215846 But the earliest document I have been able to come up with is from 1766.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

Info,

I am not surprised that there are not many, or any other documents. Here is a little better picture of the map:

When Urrutia created his map, in 1766, it seem quite possible that he used the name provided by the locals for the river. There is often a wide disparity between documented history and local history, including names for geographical features.

I believe the most widely acepted names for the river were: Santa Maria del Pilar, "Santa Maria River and Santa Cruz River.

Personally, I doubt it makes any real difference, but I would need to see a little more evidence before adding "Rio Tvbac".

Like I wrote, "Fascinating bit of early New World trivia"

Take care,

Joe

 

[RWLJ]

11-22-11
Joe
Why are you miss quoting me and out of context? The Aztec stone is a history book along with outlaying an order of time and cycles. Its cycle of a hundred and four years is broken in half making fifty two each. This cycle represents when the Earth, the Sun and Venus are all in the same position which is every hundred and four years. Where Montezuma the first may have or not created the stone, he sure didn’t create the history or the order of time recorded on it and I never implied otherwise. I am not going to read you the whole stone. If I did it would take you to a place that I am not ready to share with the world at this time.
For the same reason, I am not going to pass names of scholars that published information that took scholars farther north believing the Homeland of the Aztecs and their treasure house were in Utah, one of them an Irishman from the University of Mexico City. I have a copy of an article that was published in the Mexico City newspaper, this man was a Johnny-come-lately after a professor from the Guadahara University had already derived at the same conclusion. Another one at the California University who had a number of write-ups in papers across the Southwest that I have copies of. All three of these were looking for four rivers coming out of red rock country that the Aztec Calendar Stone Talks about.
I am sharing this information because I don’t agree with their conclusions. I had previously identified the four rivers coming out of the red rock based on other history outside the Aztec which agreed with the Aztec. These three scholars which I appreciate their research and work, but I highly disagree with where they placed the four rivers they were looking at rivers that were too big that didn’t fit other histories they were believing or implying that the Green River of Utah was one of the four rivers, the Colorado another and the San Juan River was the third and the professor from the University of California figured that the fourth was the lower Colorado. To me this is getting close but not accurate. The professor from California implied to me that he believed that the Aztecs were talking about the same four rivers that the Book of Genesis was talking about.
The four rivers I found coming out of a red rock area, the first one has Onyx Stones by it, the second one encompasses a land where the face of it had been burnt, which in Greek means Ethiopia, where the fourth river is colder than the other three, which is the original meaning of Euphrates, three matches that tie with the four rivers of Genesis. The first river encompasses the land of Havalon where there was good gold Havalon or Hava is Hebrew for Eve, and the Havasupa Indians of Northern Arizona has the Hebrew name for Eve incorporated into their name. Was the good gold of that land the source of the gold mines that the Tumacacori Documents talk about and refer to?
When you find the correct four rivers you will be able to recognize the paradise of the ancients, if you are a seeker of truth. Below it is their hidden underworld. The second river leads you to a path that drops into the center area that the Tree of Life Stone from Chavis Mexico represents, along with its surrounding area. To the north of that you have the place that the cross carved in stone at Palenque Mexico coming out of the head of a bull with the bird of paradise sitting on top of it, that bull represents the land of alpha both in Hebrew and Greek (the place of beginning), and those that knew correct history among the Americas. In that land of the bull are the seven cities of Cibola, Cibola meaning Bull. There are streams of water that flow down the legs and arms of that cross which make up the first river of history which was called the Holy Cross River or the Santa Cruz River. There are many ancient crosses that incorporated the Tree of Life with the Cross (this Tree of Life represented the family tree of the house of Israel those that keep God’s Law where they received the Ten Commandments that will give life to the nations that apply them, a place where Moses led the children of Israel to the place where Adam and Eve left).
An ancient army of the Mizraims was entrapped there and walls of water came upon them and drowned them. These walls came as a result of streams of water being dammed on all sides (Josephus described these dams as heaped up walls of water), and when Moses put his staff down it was the signal for the dams to be broken, and it caught the Mizraims in a narrow passage with walls they could not escape out of, which brought an end to their power in Western America. King Latino of the Romans carried that history down, Romans and others started executing their people on crosses, as was done in their original land of Torus the Bull, that place of the Ta or the Cross and the Bull at Palenque Mexico represents the foundation place where Rome got that history from. A later river called the Holly Cross which is shown on an old Spanish map, which predates the naming of the Santa Maria River of Southern Arizona that is now called the Santa Cruz River.
To call the Molino Document a fraud because it doesn’t match new name places stemming from ignorance or red heron amounts to a whole lot of idol talk. It would be much more proper to expand our vision of research. We need to be smart enough to recognize that all the different uprisings of the Indians of the Southwest that slaughtered the Spanish and others with some escaping and dying along the way would and did leave the Spider Rock Maps in Western Texas. One map found by Doc Henderson shown on page 38 of the August 1972 edition of True Treasure, shows what is a pretty accurate map of the place of the mines and the older Santa Cruz River. The main figure in that map is a key that is found in many places that will take you to the mines of the Molino Documents.
Thank you Beth for you nice comment.
In the future I may not have the time to answer negative and ignorant criticism but questions that are based on those seeking more of the truth.
RWLJ

 

[cactusjumper]

RW,

Sorry if I misunderstood what you wrote.

The Havasupai name has nothing to do with the Jewish word for "Eve". I don't really care if you decide not to answer my, or anyone else's, questions on your great leaps of logic and history. Not naming your sources is a great way of saying you don't really have any.

If you are going to make "historical" statements of "fact", expect questions. Using "True Treasure" as a source does not engender great confidence in your historical research. Not saying it isn't a great read, just that many of the stories are just.......stories.

Have a great Thanksgiving.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
This is a very long and somewhat off-topic reply, my apologies and feel free to skip this post if you like. Otherwise I must beg your indulgence, thank you in advance.

I had considered asking our friend RWLJ a few questions, but did not wish to interrupt the discussion between him and Cactusjumper. RWLJ we have met, a little over a year ago, but perhaps you do not remember me. I remember your theory pretty well.

The alternative history as presented is certainly interesting, yet is fraught with problems. Pointing to Egypt as a place that sent armies and fleets (for the armies had to be transported) into the American southwest simply won't work for me. True, Egypt did send out several seaborne expeditions over the centuries, usually to the "mythical" land of Punt, but at least one that ventured into the Atlantic in a mission to circumnavigate Africa, and in that case they simply hired Phoenicians to make the voyage. <Referring to the expedition sent by pharaoh Necho> Egypt kept fairly good records, and seaborne expeditions were well documented. If an army had been sent across the Atlantic, it is extremely likely that some Egyptian record of the event would be known.

As for the other candidates, from Genghis Khan to the Israelites and many others, there are problems with most of them. There is evidence that some contacts were made across the oceans in ancient times, but of a sporadic, likely accidental and quite insignificant nature. The only documented attempt to plant a colony was withdrawn, (stated in same source, Aristotle, "On Marvelous Things Heard") and all evidence points to that colony being located on the east coast of the US, certainly not in the southwest. Even so, while there is no description of how large that colony was, there is no reason to think it was a large colony and may well have been a single ship load of colonists. Remember the Plymouth colony was only the Mayflower, so important in history yet with surprisingly small numbers of people and resources involved.

If Solomon and his "navy" were indeed traveling to the American southwest for gold, that expedition likewise could not have been very large in size. His "navy" was of only twelve ships, built at great cost and labor, and each voyage took three years. As the evidence in support of Solomon's fleet coming to America also seems to indicate that they were circumnavigating the globe, three years which did not allow a lot of time for traveling inland; in fact the first two (recorded) circumnavigations of the world took almost exactly three years <referring to Magellan and Drake>. Perhaps mining camps were established and only visited every three years, however shortly after Solomon's death, his vassal state of Edom where his all-important departure port of Ezion-geber was located, revolted and access was lost. Twice later in history this far reaching trade was attempted by kings of Judea and Israel, but we have no evidence that they were successful. So any mining camps would have been stranded, unless they were able to somehow obtain passage home.

What bugs me in this alternate history is that there ARE a fair number of what we could call 'advanced' civilizations living in America in ancient times, and in scenarios such as RWLJ proposes, we must either ignore them or change their identity to a foreign (Old World) source. The Hohokam, Hopewell, Adena and others built large cities from the east coast into the deserts and from the Gulf coast well into Canada; some had excellent roads, were very good farmers, and traded over a rather vast region. There is evidence of Aztec and even Mayan trade with tribes of the southwest, particularly for the beautiful turquoise so highly valued by them. One look at some of the head-dress styles worn by Moche in Peru will sure suggest that those people had contact with ancient Hebrews or Arabs, and it is quite possible. Some ancient Amerindian cultures remain un-identified, such as the mystery culture that had a string of towns and was farming and quarrying stone in SE Wyoming several thousand years ago.

In fact there is evidence that people were visiting America well back in the Bronze Age, from Minoans to Greeks, followed by Chinese, Celts, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Romans, Etruscans, Iberians, Arabs, Welsh, Africans, Scots, Irish and Norse all before Columbus. Many of these adventurers never returned home to tell of their visits and in many cases the voyage took on mythical attributes over time. So you see, I am not just a nay-saying skeptic about such theories, but we must stick to what the evidence will support, and the evidence does not support the idea of mass armies of Mizraim sailing across the ocean and campaigning through the American deserts.

But as to how this all relates to RWLJ's theories, well we could as easily point to the Yukon, Mississippi, Amazon, and Orinoco rivers and state those are the four rivers of Eden; we could even point to the authority of Christopher Columbus himself who wrote that the Americas are in fact Eden. It is fun to speculate but simply won't fit. The mines of Tumacacori were mostly silver mines for instance, and to identify that with Havilah of the Old Testament we have to wonder how it is that the Lord bothered to mention the good gold of Havilah, yet ignored the silver? Until the time of king David, the Hebrews were largely a pastoral people with no seagoing abilities whatsoever. By close association with their neighbors the Phoenicians, the united kingdom of David started their relatively short career as a seagoing culture. The map in True Treasure magazine may well be right, but I doubt it; for there are several such maps which show the "true locations" of the various mines associated with Tumacacori, and yet when you go to those places you do not find mines. The maps must then be wrong.

No offence intended RWLJ, you do have a very interesting set of theories, however I remain (respectfully) very un-convinced. It does not help convince the readers when you refuse to name scholarly sources for your statements, and as you say these sources are already published, there is no reason to keep them a secret for the articles or books have already been made public by getting published. Your linking of the lost Dutchman, the mines of Tumacacori, the lost Adams and others are in my opinion very much an over-reach. The way it is coming across, sounds as if there are virtually no gold or silver deposits located outside of your site in all of the southwest, which is very far from fact. You are not the first to propose that several lost mine legends are all one and the same, and there are cases where it very well may be true; as with the Doc Thorne, Lost Dutchman and lost Black Maverick which might be talking of the same mine but not the Dutchman, Adams and Tumacacori mines which are all quite different. I remember the beautiful gold nuggets you displayed when we met, which very well could have come from the Lost Adams which was a placer gold deposit, and placers produce nuggets, but it would not conform with the quartz lode gold of Waltz much less the silver sulphides and native silver of the Tumacacori mines. If you own the place where those nuggets came from, the rest of the theories are not that important for the gold mine should be profitable. If you have located an "Underworld" with 3000 rooms, it would be wise to contact the authorities in government and show them the sites, so that they may be property protected and become photographed etc for all of us to benefit.

As to Mitchell and the Molina document; all writers are at the mercy of their sources. John D. Mitchell resided in Arivaca for some time, and spent much of his free time searching for many of the lost mines and treasures which he wrote about. That would indicate to me that he at least believed the stories were true. If it is true that he obtained his copy of the Molina document from Milton Rose, we should not point at Mitchell as the fraud. It is only my own opinion but Rose is a very questionable source.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek - and wishing you all a very Happy Thanksgiving.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Err, ah, hmmm. Ladies & gentlemen:

RWl, so far your data 'could' be rearranged slightly to crudely fit --> see attachment, but, 'not' the western states.

You have me lost by including such a large portion of the earth and the time era, however, I 'am' interested in hearing more.

I have to toady up to oro, and his well documented data, in order to get another cuppa sock coffee.

Don Jose de La Mancha

P.S. Also remember Oro has a genuine 'working' OUIJI Board, and an extremely intelligent wife who monitors him. I have no idea about cactus Joe, but he must also be monitored, since he occasionally comes up with excellent ideas.