Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I was going to get around to the Jesuit timing question. It's a bit of a problem.

Don Jose,

Are you suggesting that the picture I posted is Mayan? That was one of my future questions for RW.
On the other hand, can you tell me what is being written?

I don't usually visit Internet sites for my information, but they are useful.

I am anxious to read more from RW. I hope he was not offended by my question. There seems to be little doubt that he has been at this for awhile, and can teach us those things that we may not be aware of. In my case, that would take more time than I have left.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Jose,

Arroz con pollo y cafe calcetín

Beth

Comes out great in a Dutch oven.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe, I will not speculate on the origin of your figures, I will leave that to RWL, Are they Aztec, Mayan, or

Don Jose de La Mancha


Beth, I have no idea how many 'Chachalacas con aroz' I have eaten, but then unfortunately, our beverage was tea for many reasons, including weight, and the necessity for sharing your beverage when on the trail with whomever you meet. Since most Indians do not like tea, that helped solve our supply problem. We were forced to embarrassingly explain that we had 'run out of coffee' to save face. snicker.

Chacalacas, similar in size to a Road runner in size shape and toughness. Next to the white breasted Pigeon.

 

[RWLJ]

9-18-11
Joe in reply to your question, can I read the facsimiles you posted. My answer is I am not fluent in the picture story or the facsimile writing of that area at that time, nor am I fluent in Egyptian hieroglyphs and I am far less so with the facsimiles that preceded and blended with the older cuneiform writing. In these particular fields I piggyback or try to stand on the shoulders of those that leave me in the dust on the common meaning. But on the other hand the facsimiles that precede the Paleo-Hebrew and older forms of Hebrew writing (is clearer to me than some English) which is a close relative to the facsimiles of the Mizraims (which is a parent writing or writing that preceded the writing which we call Egyptian writing today) which we have a lot of in the southwest, but even here in the southwest we have a lot of different types of facsimile or petroglyph writing from different races at different times over a long span of history, which writings are sometimes a blend of different cultures.
There is an old saying that a picture can be worth a thousand words. In ancient times someone that was gifted in writing facsimiles was able to write or carve a picture that portrayed reality that was very real to life and those that were able to perceive that reality comprehended the message that was portrayed in that writing. Let me give you two examples, one in old Hebrew facsimile writing and one in Egyptian writing. The name Jacob in old Hebrew identified what he did at the time he was born, he came out of the womb holding onto the heel of Esau his brother, so he was called heel grabber (Jacob), here in the southwest there is a number of places where this heel grabber is talked about and he is easily recognized if you have a background in the history of his life, his brother was known as the hunter, while he was known as a man of vision.
So when you see facsimiles carved in stone of a foot, with a man holding a bow and arrow, inside the foot, it identifies the foot of a hunter. When you see a hand with an eye in the palm, representing the hand of a visionary man with the fingers wrapped around the heel of the foot, then it is easy to read the story of the heel grabber or Jacob who grabbed the heel of his brother the hunter.
Let’s look at the second example. Most Egyptian scholars would probably say that I was wrong in my interpretation and theirs was right. I am only going to translate Egyptian figures or any other facsimiles of other cultures, where I know by my background of experience, where I am more accurate than they are. Some of the Egyptian scholars will translate that Horace the Falcon Hawk represents the sun that goes from the east to the west. I find that their simple understanding fails to meet its lesser or general meaning nor do they come close to understanding its greater meaning, and I find a number of scholars have made similar mistakes across America. I would agree that most Egyptian and American Scholars on the Mayan and Aztec language are ahead of me in their interpretations of the common meaning in the languages where they are recognized as having made breakthroughs.
When you see Horace the Falcon Hawk with his uplifted wings, the inside of his wings makes a pot, his head that is turned to one side represents the figure that the Hebrew letter that is represented by our R stems from, the sun on top of his head was a symbol they used to represent a great light, it could be of geology such as a flaming volcano or the great light of understanding truth or knowledge, the snake or dragon around the sun identifies it as a dragon or snake sun. In geology a dragon or snake sun is a volcano with lava flows which the ancients identified as fiery snakes or dragons. In Egyptian history Horace was the god of the underworld with one eye, that particular volcano that he represents flowed from the east to the west, and from a distance the center of it looks like a human eye, and he still guards or sits over the entrance to the underworld.
The Greeks called Horace the falcon hawk the one eyed Cyclops, and it is represented on the dollar bill as the All Seeing Eye on the pyramid, to the priest on both sides of the world the greater meaning to this place is where the greater light of truth and knowledge stemmed from. They used the sun to represent the great light of knowledge that went around the world. Both Egyptian and Mayan records identifies that place in the west where the sun or the great light rose in the beginning, both predicted that that sun or great light would rise again in the west, that is why the Aztecs and others took their treasures and records to that place to assist in the accomplishment of such, which included some Jesuit Priests. The treasures of Guadalupe are to help restore the place of Guadalupe, which is the mother of all places, which includes the place that brought forth different types of great lights through some of her sons to the world.
While I am grateful to the foundation or shoulders I have built upon, I don’t intend to limit myself to the tunnel vision that most people have, or to have long drawn out arguments over the common meaning of things they could well whip me on. You could believe that the great and intelligent men really worshiped what we call the sun today, or you could believe that they worshiped the greater light of all truth that the sun symbol represented (symbol of something that enhanced your vision to see more things). There is no doubt that there are many in times past as well as today that bow to the symbol instead of what it represents. They think they can read the past failing to read or understand themselves.
I thank you Joe for giving me an opportunity to make it more clear on what I understand, I was being too general about being able to read petroglyphs in the southwest, not wanting to be specific in giving away a certain area or some other areas where I can read some petroglyphs not knowing any close second to me in certain isolated fields, I could write much upon the subject but will explain a few basic clues, and this will help those that seek them to get to the sacred places of the ancients. Just as a hawk such as Horace had blue and red feathers, so did a volcano have blue and red cinders that flew out of the pot of that volcano having the same characteristics that a falcon hawk has in bringing down it prey by hitting into it like a rock. Some of the ancients used the characteristics of animals and other things to describe the characteristics of things in nature they were talking about. Part of the world referred to this place as the Cauldron or the Black Cooking Pot, Hebrew the U originally represented the pot, and the r the flame coming out of it.
The Hopi talk about some of their ancient heroes visiting the place where the Coyote or the three headed dog of the Greeks guards the underworld, throughout Indian culture this dog is known as the trickster, thousands of people that pass by the place that the Coyote represents, are being fooled or tricked, (due to the great efforts where most of all signs of the civilization that had existed there destroyed or covered) into thinking there is nothing there, not realizing they are walking over the magnificent underworld of the ancients. One of the Hopi trails takes you to the San Francisco Peaks, which they refer to as the great Eagle and from there to the grey hawk and from the grey hawk to the red hawk and from there to the sacred mountain that contains the hard rock kiva of Spiderwoman that the Mexicans identified as Guadalupe, and within a hundred miles you have the mines of Guadalupe that are to help assist or lift a new sun into orbit. That sun is beginning to rise up in the west, and some of us should be able to see it before the end of the Mayan or the Aztecs Calendars. This makes a very long or big story short and I hope comprehendible to some extent.
RW

 

[RWLJ]

9-18-11
Hello Oroblanco
The Pedro Nevarez known as El Chato lived in the 1600s and was hung at Mexico City in 1650, you find him or hear of him in a lot of legends, particularly in New Mexico and the south, some reverend him as a saint or a Robin Hood, while most believed that him and his band of Indians and Mexicans were a corrupted bunch of thieves. He robbed and plundered people and caravans along the Spanish trail to the north that reached into Utah. He talks about where there was wealth that could bless a thousand families.
On the map that is posted on this site that shows the Guadalupe mine it also shows the San Pedro Mine. On the horse map, on the so-called Peralta Stones towards the rear of the horse it shows a point mark with the abbreviation of Pedro next to it. I also have two different alleged copies of old Spanish maps that show the trail of Pedro ending at the place of the mines, that identifies them to be the group of mines that the Tayopa document and maps talk about, as well as the group of mines the Temacacury or Guadalupe documents and maps talk about.
One account of this is written in a book called the Treasure of the Sangre de Cristos, by Arthur L. Campa, in chapter four called the treasures of El Chato Nevarez. Another account is in the book Treasure Trails of the Southwest, by Marc Simmons, in chapter two. Another account is written in Buried Treasures of the American Southwest, W.C. Jameson, on page 115. You may find other accounts of his and one of his bands confessions on the internet. The different translations of their confessions are about as screwed up as some of the Temacacury/Guadalupe Document translations. According to the records or legends, what him and his band plundered at least part of it would have come from the Acolman monks that belonged to the Augustiniain Order, so these monks or other priests would have known that there were treasures buried in and near the mines, where once stood a small church that is on the Tayopa Maps, which the Temacacury/ Guadalupe documents and maps refer to as a temple.
Changing the subject a little Oroblanco, what we all want in life is happiness and the ability to do things that we believe will make our life more fulfilling. All you treasure hunters need to realize there are a lot of things we could do that would give us such in behalf of the treasures that were placed for other purposes. With your research it would not take you much to be or do a number of things, in continuing on in research, cross examining such, you already have the background with a little more effort to be teachers or guides or authors of a story that is part of a lot bigger story, there is room for all kinds of blessings if we support the greater good. Don’t be discouraged there is a lot more homework that could bring nice rewards; I have only cracked the surface. I was slow in replying having been beat up from moving a lot of enormous door knockers that exceeded two-hundred pounds.
The morale of the story, the more mistakes we have made to accomplish something, the more we can appreciate the facts, whoever finds such. And some of us that have found some great things, we have made plenty of mistakes, learning by them is what gives us a future. If all you people that post on this site, keep the debates going until the greater truth like cream gets to the top, we will see benefits that could be far greater than the discoverer of something. On this posted place is a book in itself that can give the seekers of truth a greater reality that can be beneficial of the past for the future.
There are three-thousand chambers in the underworld; every one of them could have dozens of books written about them. Who is going to properly open them up? Who is going to guard them? Who is going to write about them? And who is going to build the structures and run or handle all the different things that need to be done and tell the stories and guide the tourists and operate the shops, in the greatest Superstitious Mountains of all time, from the Underworld to the Mines? The ways of the past are coming to a close, this nation and the world is turning in on itself. This nation is going to need a lot of new founding fathers, in history and in every other field. Can any of us rise to the challenge that the future demands if we want a future? Who is going to carry the torch when some of us are pushing daisies?
A person that wants to help those that want to create a better house or government that can shelter us from bad storms.
RW

 

[Oroblanco]

9-18-11
Hello Oroblanco
The Pedro Nevarez known as El Chato lived in the 1600s and was hung at Mexico City in 1650, you find him or hear of him in a lot of legends,

OK that clears up that it is NOT the Narvaez I had assumed you were referring to.

RWLJ also wrote

On the map that is posted on this site that shows the Guadalupe mine it also shows the San Pedro Mine. On the horse map, on the so-called Peralta Stones towards the rear of the horse it shows a point mark with the abbreviation of Pedro next to it. I also have two different alleged copies of old Spanish maps that show the trail of Pedro ending at the place of the mines, that identifies them to be the group of mines that the Tayopa document and maps talk about, as well as the group of mines the Temacacury or Guadalupe documents and maps talk about.

I am not convinced that the stone maps are anything other than a modern work of art done by a fellow who loved treasure hunting and stone carving. Interesting however to compare them with other maps.

RWLJ also wrote

One account of this is written in a book called the Treasure of the Sangre de Cristos, by Arthur L. Campa, in chapter four called the treasures of El Chato Nevarez. Another account is in the book Treasure Trails of the Southwest, by Marc Simmons, in chapter two. Another account is written in Buried Treasures of the American Southwest, W.C. Jameson, on page 115. You may find other accounts of his and one of his bands confessions on the internet. <snip>

I do not have Treasure of the Sangre de Cristos, thank you for the suggested read, I do have the other two your refer to and can re-read those for comparison.

RWLJ also wrote

Changing the subject a little Oroblanco, what we all want in life is happiness and the ability to do things that we believe will make our life more fulfilling. All you treasure hunters need to realize there are a lot of things we could do that would give us such in behalf of the treasures that were placed for other purposes. With your research it would not take you much to be or do a number of things, in continuing on in research, cross examining such, you already have the background with a little more effort to be teachers or guides or authors of a story that is part of a lot bigger story, there is room for all kinds of blessings if we support the greater good. Don’t be discouraged there is a lot more homework that could bring nice rewards; I have only cracked the surface. I was slow in replying having been beat up from moving a lot of enormous door knockers that exceeded two-hundred pounds.
The morale of the story, the more mistakes we have made to accomplish something, the more we can appreciate the facts, whoever finds such. And some of us that have found some great things, we have made plenty of mistakes, learning by them is what gives us a future. If all you people that post on this site, keep the debates going until the greater truth like cream gets to the top, we will see benefits that could be far greater than the discoverer of something. On this posted place is a book in itself that can give the seekers of truth a greater reality that can be beneficial of the past for the future.

Perhaps you have misunderstood the philosophy of many of us treasure hunters, for I am not just looking for a wad of cash thinking that will solve everything, and speaking only for myself, am taking and have long been taking control of my own life and 'destiny' so it is not simply a case of looking to cash in. I am sure that if some of us had the desire to be teachers, we would have taken the steps and obtained the necessary training to become teachers. As for guiding work, that takes a certain amount of self control. I know that I would not be too happy to guide someone into some remote spot and then watch them find a lost mine that I have been searching for, or to bag a trophy elk etc. Anyway I think you may have a somewhat mistaken idea of what treasure hunters are all about. Many of us are not in it because of some 'hole' in our lives, but because we LOVE to do it. All that said, if there were no chance of a monetary reward, I would not be spending any time, resources or effort looking for any particular treasure. Not my thing! As to the authoring part, again speaking only for myself, have already broken the ice on that, my first published article was in the late 1970's and currently working on several other writing projects; you will find that there are a number of other authors among the members here, with many published books and articles, and many currently working on new ones. Besides, too many of the treasure hunters known as "archaeologists" have been locking away their discoveries in dark basements of museums. Who benefits from that practice?

RWLJ also wrote

There are three-thousand chambers in the underworld; every one of them could have dozens of books written about them. Who is going to properly open them up? Who is going to guard them? Who is going to write about them? And who is going to build the structures and run or handle all the different things that need to be done and tell the stories and guide the tourists and operate the shops, in the greatest Superstitious Mountains of all time, from the Underworld to the Mines? The ways of the past are coming to a close, this nation and the world is turning in on itself. This nation is going to need a lot of new founding fathers, in history and in every other field. Can any of us rise to the challenge that the future demands if we want a future? Who is going to carry the torch when some of us are pushing daisies?
A person that wants to help those that want to create a better house or government that can shelter us from bad storms.
RW

3000 chambers in the underworld? Can you enlarge on this a bit? The rest of your questions can then be addressed once the existence and (general) location of this mass of underground chambers is established. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco <greedy profit-seeking treasure hunter>



PS

On the meaning of the name "Jacob" there is an alternate theory that it originates as "Ya'aqov'el" meaning "may God protect".

 

[cactusjumper]

RW,

"The discoveries that I may have made did not come about or start from looking for treasures, I was given a couple of books by those who figured I could help them crack the mysteries and lead them to mines and treasures, due to the fact a professor from a university had told them that I could read petroglyphs and had understanding of ancient history of the southwest unlike anyone else. There are hundreds that know me that would vouch for the same."

"With my background in researching past history of the Americas and its ancient writings I already knew the original names or older names of many places."

Those two statements convinced me that you would be able to read the Aztec writing that I posted. Which peoples petroglyphs are you familiar with?

I must admit I was surprised to see you shift the discussion to early Paleo-Hebrew, Mizraim/Egyptian and Greek writing.

Thank you for your reply.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

RW,

As I have said, the picture I posted was Aztec.

It shows one of the battles of Moctezuma 1. The picture of the grabbing of the hair, is the symbol for battle. The temple on fire means conquest. The date is 1469.

Do you know what the speaking tree (tongue) is a symbol for?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Treasure Seeker1312]

Hi Treasureseeker 1312 here
Its been a long time since I have been on this site.
First of all I would like to thank you for your reply. I agree that the Priest, Franciscans, Jesuits or whomever did probably hide their items in the missions at some point.
However I keep coming back to the same old possible alternate possibility.

I think that perhaps they might have hid there items of significant value in the near by burial sites-(Grave- Sites).
My reason of thinking being that having been attacked several times and not knowing what the outcome of there possible demise might have been. It would make sense for them to bury it there, as they knew that particular place would possibly be the least searched area around because of the spiritual nature of the land. That particular place being one of the most sacred of all places to all who were there, and all who came there . Therefore believing that no one most certainly would not check there and avoid that area at all cost.
Also knowing that once the area was peacefull again- If indeed the did meet there maker- who ever resettled the area
would indeed return to the gravesite for future prayer and burial- Perhaps even their replacement of your holiness - might find or recover what they had left.
I can not say for anyone else other then myself, that if I were in there shoes that is where I would bury any items of value- in case I did not make it through whatever skirmish that may have come my way.
Please everyone who reads this post- Feel free to comment on this post and tell me if you think it may be a possibility that items were hidden at the gravesites for some of the previously mentioned reasons. Weather you disagree with this thinking and why. I would love to know how those of you who have a far more vast knowledge of the time period and cultures that existed in this time period then I have think . Please tell me what you think
Thanks for letting me post.
T.S.

 

[Treasure Seeker1312]

Sorry everone , I do not know why the publisher tool of this post- decided to organize my previously posted comment in the format that it did.
T.S.

 

[Treasure Seeker1312]

Please everyone- Let your conscience be your guide when it comes to digging.
I for one could and will not dig at a burial site.
T.S

 

[peralta]

These mines are out there, but the document gives you half truths.ignore the distances from mission to mines.also ignore the distances between the mission treasures themselves.a clue is when they state that you can see a drill hole from one mine to another. If there were leagues between them you couldn't. Do that.discribing each mine is ok.they put their own church area.there is a pedistol with a 20 ft. Tall shadow of mary mother of jesus in the site ill give you what ever.information. I can.

 

[peralta]

The molina document has half truths.don't believe all the distances, they are to through you off. The distance from the mission is wrong.there is no mission near the treasures.but there is a standing place to worship at services.they face a pillar where a shadow of mary appears. As a shadow.its o.k. to believe the discriptions of each mine and the contents of what treasures are inside.one mine has a ten foot statue made of stone in frount of it but it has been damaged in different parts so you. Won't recognize it. A second mine is on a cliff.there is a side view of marys face approximately 40 ft. High.her eyes are looking back at the.mine location. Behind the face you can see the image of a gallion with the masts intact with a cross on top of one.this ship appears in shadow marking.the guadalupe mine markings are on a rock wall.a robed priest is laying on his side, one arm is held up and there is a skeleton. Key in his hand and three feet distance to the left of the key is a figure of a keyhole.

 

[RWLJ]

11-10-11
Hello Joe
It has been a long time but if I remember right it was Montezuma the first who created the Aztec Calendar, the one I saw in the Mexico City Museum in the 1960s. You are a good critic and that has its place, particularly in this field. Great teachers around the world, including some Indians, often were very gifted in teaching in a way that the lesser in understanding would only understand the lesser meaning of things and the greater in understanding would understand the far deeper picture, in their mind of what was being said or taught to the common people.
I could translate many Indian legends if I had the time. Their stories correctly translated into English would often sound like fairytale or kid stories unless you understand the deeper meaning behind what is being portrayed. For a couple examples, I do not have time for more. The porcupine could be used to represent a porcupine or it could be used to represent a hill that is fortified with spears, bows and arrows. A snake could represent a stream or someone that carried messages along the stream or a path of life. The messenger could be a teacher of correct law or any other kind.
The Indians after having problems with whites didn’t share, as a general rule, the greater meaning of their stories or history. I know what I have found through properly reading the ancient language of America, and I wish you the most luck in finding the greater reality of American history, which is the greatest of all treasures. It is nice that you have shared what you believe. I have got more to do than get sucked into a fight that would bring out where both of us would show our ignorance. We can do far more good by adding light and knowledge upon subjects that need to be enlightened upon to prevent people from chasing rainbows. If that is your intention, keep up the good work.
RWLJ
PS: I forgot to mention there are those who are super good in talking double languages. Unlike most great men in the past, they do it for self-gain, instead of helping the lesser in a way that excites him to where he has greater intellectual growth and realized the greater meaning of things, they are called politicians.

 

[RWLJ]

11-10-11
Hello Mike
I want you to know that I really value your comments. I also want to help all those who read this to recognize that Juan de Dios Molino, was a name used by a man who was a fugitive from justice, he had old Spanish Documents, the Indians had showed him the mines so he knew where they were and found documents in them. He quoted the documents probably upwards of ninety percent correct, in a few places he made things clearer than what was on the original Spanish documents. The part about the Mesa being three leagues long is correct; the Antigua library that is on the map is the place he copied records from. I have a picture of the man, and I know a lot about his history. Some of the language in the document covering measurements is tricky at best; if he had known Spanish better it would probably have been more comprehendible. If you are looking for these mines within a hundred and fifty miles of either side of the Mexican border you will not find them.
The wife of this so-called Juan de Dios Molino left another map to the mines under the pretense, which wasn’t entirely a lie, that the priest asked her to give a letter or pass it on to someone else knowing the guy would open it and find the map. Even that map to the mines is very incomplete, but is more accurate in some respects than the other Molino Maps. You can find a picture of that map on page 219 of the book Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver by J. Frank Dobie. On that map the Guadalupe Mine is still the Guadalupe Mine, the Pure Conception is just the Conception Mine, the Opatas Mine two words in its name is reversed and it is the Tayopa Mine, the Placers of Paramo are the Aguas of San Ramon. I have seen maps and documents that are far more accurate than anything shown on this website.
I will give this website a few more jewels to put in the peoples crowns who want to wear it. If you want to see close up maps of the mines themselves, then look up the Spider Rock Maps of Texas. The Aspermont Spider Rock Map is the main Tayopa/Guadalupe Mines the Clyde Spider Rock Map is the mine you measure to from the Black Rock on that map you can see two round domes with shaft lines in each one of them, the one on the north is shown on the Molino Document Map, the Rotan Spider Rock Map is where the Molino Document shows the temple and the Antigua Library. These maps are very accurate descriptions of the mines themselves, but everything I have seen from those who are looking for them in Texas aren’t even close to understanding the whereabouts of the mines.
These maps obviously were drawn by those who were escaping the wrath of the Indians, probably a Jesuit Priest that well knew the history and was familiar with the mines. I believe that the Jesuit Priest was trying to leave a record of things that were far beyond what the Jesuits mined or did themselves. I believe these mines were called the Montezuma Mines long before the Montezuma that created the Aztec Calendar.
My desire is that all of you out there who have looked to solve the mysteries of the Spider Rocks, likewise all of you that have looked to solve the mysteries of the Tayopa Mines, or the altered account of them called the Molino Documents, that all of you can be blessed according to your contributions and your efforts to bring light on past mysteries, as many of you out there have contributed at least a little to a direction that made it possible for what has been discovered to come forth with even greater light due to the light that many of you have contributed. In time something needs to be done that will enhance all of you in having a better opportunity in having a better life, particularly those that respect the rights of others and the rights of the final discoverer.
Right now it wouldn’t be proper for these mines to be opened up, at least until we got a lot better government. I think we need to look forward in helping bring about a government where there are standards of law that respects the rights of the people as well as the rights of the true creators and discoverers. It would be very vain to look for these mines because they are privately owned. Unless you think you could get away with robbing Fort Knox, the greatest treasure we could ever find is to help resurrect the government in standing upright and quit tromping on the rights of the people through enslaving them through corrupt socialism dominated by corrupt false capitalists.
RWLJ

 

[cactusjumper]

RW,

Glad to see you are back. I know your post was not addressed to me, but something you wrote caught my eye:

"I believe these mines were called the Montezuma Mines long before the Montezuma that created the Aztec Calendar."

I am no expert on Mesoamerican history. On the other hand, I am quite a fan. I like to keep the history that I do know.....clean. Too much history is being made up by modern-day writers.

I believe the Aztec Calendar was derived from the Mayan and possibly the Olmec Calendars. It may have been in use as early as the eleventh century, which was long before Montezuma.

Motecuhzoma Ilhuicamina (Montezuma I), reigned from 1397 to 1469. The Aztec Calendar was in place long before his rule.

I look forward to reading more about your lost treasure theories.

Take care,

Joe

 

[RWLJ]

11-11-11
Joe
In response to your comments on the Aztec calendar. I was not referring to the original source of the information on the Aztec Calendar. I was only referring to the person that created the one that was in the Mexico City Museum, the one that was being used by the Aztecs at the time of Cortez. Its base roots go back before the Olmec. You can see roots of that Calendar in a number of Plates found in Michigan and from there if you do your homework you can trace the origin of the Michigan Plates or its roots to Utah. I can show you calendars carved in caves north of the Grand Canyon. The Aztec Calendar that was in the Museum of Mexico in the 1960s is not a calendar in the sense that it gives you the days of the week, it is more of a history book of times past and times future, it represents a place in the Southwest, the homeland of the Aztecs.
RWLJ

 

[cactusjumper]

RW,

I don't know about all of your claims but, as I recall, the Museum's calendar is said to have taken over fifty-years to create. I don't believe Montezuma is credited with creating the artifact.

If by "Southwest" you mean New Mexico, (White Sands) we would be in agreement.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

RWLJ wrote

It would be very vain to look for these mines because they are privately owned. Unless you think you could get away with robbing Fort Knox, the greatest treasure we could ever find is to help resurrect the government in standing upright and quit tromping on the rights of the people through enslaving them through corrupt socialism dominated by corrupt false capitalists.

The political forum is in another section of the boards here, and since money equates to power it would seem that to put the mines into production would go a long ways to help promote the political agenda you espouse. Your contention that the mines are privately owned should be very easy to prove, and could do no harm to reveal for if they are privately owned, it would be trespass to venture into them.

I have to respectfully disagree on your statement about the mines being privately owned on several grounds. One of the mines mentioned in the Molina document is indeed privately owned, and is largely played out (the paystreak did not run to any great depths) plus I have personally seen enough evidence and mineral indications that lead me to conclude that most of the mines are still not rediscovered with two exceptions; the first exception being the San Pedro, found by John D. Mitchell, has both main tunnels collapsed and would take a great deal of capital to ever re-open, the second exception being La Purisma Concepcion, found by two ex-soldiers after the First World War and photographed. Neither of these are on private lands, and for that matter the one which is in private ownership today is virtually surrounded by public lands which are open to all.

In conclusion I have to disagree with the contention that it would be vain to search for these lost mines at all; I would not recommend it at the time being due to the dangers arising from the ongoing smuggling operations along our border with Mexico, but if and when this near-war should be calmed down there is good reason to search for the lost mines. I plan to do so myself, so am not simply trying to push others into doing what I am not willing to do myself, just think it is not safe at the current time. My wife and I have searched for la Purisma on a number of occasions in the past in fact. That area of southern Arizona is highly mineralized, a careful search by a treasure hunter or prospector stands a very good chance of finding a long-lost Spanish, Mexican, early Anglo or Jesuit mine or to make an entirely new discovery of a valuable mineral deposit, especially of silver. A fairly recent USGS study confirms the high degree of mineralization throughout the hills along the border and a good number of known (not lost) gold and silver mines are located in the region. I do not understand your logic and reasoning RWLJ, why you seem to wish to discourage folks from searching for the famous lost mines associated with Tumacacori, when the geology is certainly promising enough and most of the lands are public lands open to mineral entry, not to mention the fact that so many excellent mines were found and worked in the American part of the area history. On the other hand you have made statements indicating that you view treasure hunters as just greedy misguided people, when in truth we are hunting treasures because we love to hunt treasures, the possibility of striking it rich is only the icing on the cake.

Perhaps if you could post some photos of the 3000 underground rooms, it might help us to start to understand what it is that you feel so concerned about protecting and preserving for future generations? Thank you in advance, no offense intended on our disagreement, we simply see things very differently and I would like to try to understand why you have taken the positions you have concerning the lost mines of Tumacacori.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Listening and drinking one of the cups of coffee oro.

Don Jose de La mancha