Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"The King didn't actually provide anything but money for new missions."

While the King did provide money for the missions, I believe you are mistaken about what else he may have provided:

"When compared with other Jesuit missions, neither Guevavi nor San Xavier del Bac could ever have been considered rich. Yet each time a new Padre arrived to take charge he was required to sign a formal transfer of property, thereby accepting responsibility for whatever scant wealth there was. Four surviving examples of these entregas follow...." (I have provided only a small portion of what was written.)

On June 1, 1737, Father Keller signed over the "Inventory of the Properties of the Church, House and Fields of San Xavier de Bac".

At the top of the list for "Furnishing of the Church", this is written:

That which the King (whom God guard) has given for the establishment of this mission.
They are the same in number and kind as those of Guevavi, except for the altar lamp which was completely broken to pieces when the natives sacked the house.
Also of these vestments and other ecclesiastical ornaments the damaged processional canopy and censer are in the possession of Captain Anza for repair."

Source: "Mission of Sorrows" by John L. Kessell.

If you like, I can provide you with the list of "Furnishings of the Church" for Guevavi on the same date.

I am sure this is not the only mention, I have read, where the King provided material (church) goods for the missions.

Take care,

Joe

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[gollum]

Joe,

Some of the furnishings were bought with the money the King provided for each mission. I have several statements that show different amounts given for different missions. The way it worked was: The Jesuit Visitor General made a yearly list of Missions and Missionary Fathers, and presented it to the Court. Once okayed by the King, a certain amount of Pesos were provided for each Father and each Mission. The King allowed a certain amount of money for yearly upkeep. After a time, each Mission was supposed to be self sustaining through raising crops, horses, mules, sheep, mi.....uhhhhhh forget that. Each Mission was allowed to conduct commerce insofar as to provide for the upkeep of the Mission itself. No ventures for profit were allowed.

What you are misinterpreting is the result of one of those nasty Ecclesiastical Precepts the Jesuits had to live by. While I don't have Father Polzer's Book in front of me, I can quote the Precept (almost) verbatim:

"When a Mission Father transfers from one Mission to another, he will leave all the vestments and ornaments at his old Mission. All the contents of each Mission will be noted and the list provided to the Visitor General. The Visitor General is the only person authorized to allow items from one Mission to be transferred to another."

The ONLY time the Crown ever provided the actual vestments and ornaments for a Mission was when Fray Junipero Serra was granted permission to raid the Jesuit Missions in order to found the California Mission System. He actually lists what he found in the Jesuit Missions and took. That is why we know that what was described by several Jesuit Fathers as having been in the Missions and Churches before the suppression was not there when Fray Serra got there a year later.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

Some of the furnishings were bought with the money the King provided for each mission. I have several statements that show different amounts given for different missions. The way it worked was: The Jesuit Visitor General made a yearly list of Missions and Missionary Fathers, and presented it to the Court. Once okayed by the King, a certain amount of Pesos were provided for each Father and each Mission. The King allowed a certain amount of money for yearly upkeep. After a time, each Mission was supposed to be self sustaining through raising crops, horses, mules, sheep, mi.....uhhhhhh forget that. Each Mission was allowed to conduct commerce insofar as to provide for the upkeep of the Mission itself. No ventures for profit were allowed.

What you are misinterpreting is the result of one of those nasty Ecclesiastical Precepts the Jesuits had to live by. While I don't have Father Polzer's Book in front of me, I can quote the Precept (almost) verbatim:

"When a Mission Father transfers from one Mission to another, he will leave all the vestments and ornaments at his old Mission. All the contents of each Mission will be noted and the list provided to the Visitor General. The Visitor General is the only person authorized to allow items from one Mission to be transferred to another."

The ONLY time the Crown ever provided the actual vestments and ornaments for a Mission was when Fray Junipero Serra was granted permission to raid the Jesuit Missions in order to found the California Mission System. He actually lists what he found in the Jesuit Missions and took. That is why we know that what was described by several Jesuit Fathers as having been in the Missions and Churches before the suppression was not there when Fray Serra got there a year later.

Best-Mike

Mike,

It may be that I am "misinterpreting" what I am reading. Are we to assume then, that your own reading skills and understanding are infallible?

As I understand it, the Jesuit Fathers would put together orders (memorias) for needed supplies for the missions. The funds for those orders came directly from royal treasury stipends for the missions. I suppose you are correct in that the King himself did not cobble together rosaries, baptismal fonts, chalices and incense burners from spare parts he had laying around the palace, but he did supply the funds for those supplies, when they were requested.

Did the King personally approve each and every memoria? No. Those orders were filled in Mexico City at the Jesuit Colegio de San Andres. Does that mean that the church items mentioned in the entregas were actually gifts given from the Jesuit officials in the colegio?

In my limited understanding of what I read, I tend to accept the words written by the hand of Father Ygnacio Xavier Keller: "That which the King (whom God guard) has given for the establishment of this mission". I take that to mean that the inventory listed was "given" by the King.

If you wish to split hairs, that's fine, but in the final analysis the good Father credited the King with the gift of those good. As Father Keller was closer to the events and sources for the missions, I think his opinion trumps ours.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

"I also wonder whose silver that was? Was it "Church property"? I only found a single incident in which Jesuit silver and gold was involved in a pirate attack on a ship, and the Spanish successfully defended it (a Captain Peralta, in fact) so I have to suspect that some shipments did not need to be smuggled, especially if in the form of bells, candlesticks etc."

Very interesting! I would be interested in knowing two things: What was your source, if you can say, and.......Which way was the ship going, to Spain or to New Spain? The King often provided those kinds of items to new missions.

Thanks,

Joe

There are several sources, as both the pirates and Spanish recorded the incident; I did a quick search online as I thought that was where I had seen it, but only the pirate version of events is online; Dampier's recollection

http://books.google.com/books?id=jz...:dampier&pg=PA154#v=onepage&q=peralta&f=false

Exquemelin's version may be online too but I can't find it, the Peralta was Don Francisco de Peralta. It is repeated in On the Spanish Main by Masefield,

http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/1/9/3/9/19396/19396.htm

...the incident was during Morgan's raiding Panama and Morgan's men were reported to have used Jesuits as human shields to attack a Spanish fort. The gold-leaf covered Altar Oro was preserved during this attack on Panama city by the Jesuits who painted it black; they told Morgan that the original had been taken by another pirate, and managed to move this work of art into the new city which was built after Morgan burned the city. (According to Morgan's men however, it was the Spanish who burned the city rather than allow it to fall into Morgan's hands, and this is supported, it is claimed, by Spanish survivors)

The ship was loaded with the church treasure as well as the wealth of the city merchants to preserve it from the pirates, so it is not likely the ship was sailing TO the Americas; in fact as far as I am aware, shipments of gold, silver etc generally went from the New World to the Old, rather than vice versa. According to Bartholomew Sharp (pirate) the Trinity with this treasure went from Panama city to Lima, Peru, but he was recalling it 12 years later, and spelled Peralta as "Berralto" so not sure if we should credit Lima as the destination. Captain Peralta and his ship the Trinity were both later captured by Morgan's men after a terrific fight, but the treasure had been slipped away to safety.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Oro de Tayopa: The loot from Panama was carried across the isthmus to the ships in the Caribbean. There Morgan had most of it transferred to his ship for later distribution. Unfortunately he slipped anchor in the night deserting his fellow pirates and the loot has never surfaced.

He did show up in Jamaica with a huge treasure, none that could be identified as the loot from Panama, which bought him the governorship. Needless to say his men were a bit unhappy with him.

The loot is still uncounted for, but I know just about where it is. A long story, where confidence with the Indians paid off. I have posted the story once in here in TN in shipwrecks. Obviously not the precise Lat & Long, naturally.

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo* who as usual is modifying the subject with anecdotes.

 

[gollum]

Joe,

All I'm saying is that the King provided money for each mission and missionary father. With that money they bought supplies for the missions. So, of course the King provided whatever was bought because he paid for it.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I believe that's what I said, and how I understand Father Keller's written statement......The King provided.

On the other hand.......

"No ventures for profit were allowed."

Ah......Rule 22.

Definition

[The positive gain from an investment or business operation after subtracting for all expenses. opposite of loss.]
____________________________________

It may be, my friend, that you have misinterpreted the Jesuit understanding of the meaning of the word "profit". Would you agree that some of the missions operated at a loss, while others were quite profitable? In fact, profit is mentioned many times in historical Jesuit writings and documents.

You should always keep in mind the human desire to be successful. I doubt running your mission at a loss, thus draining the Jesuit means and ability to further the faith, was something that any priest aspired to. Personal profit and excessive personal comfort were probably the target of Rule 22. That's a personal opinion based on the history of the order that I have read , so I could be mistaken.

Thanks for your reply.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Here are some supporting comments for my last post:
___________________________________________

3
Native Livelihood and the Colonial Economy
It is not enough to sweep the church and keep it clean, rather it must be adorned with altars, saints, candelabra, crosses, and vestments, so that we all may know that this is the house of God.

Padre Manuel Aguirre, 1765

Serrano peoples' holistic sense of livelihood confronted alien standards of work and surplus production in the colonial order. Individual and familial labor for food, shelter, clothing, and utensils was directed away from the sustenance of households and communities to the production and storage of marketable surpluses. The frontier institution that most directly impinged on the Sonoran pueblos was the mission; its agrarian structures consolidated native villages and linked them to the wider colonial economy. Contrary to the image created in much of the Borderlands literature on the missions, they did not comprise isolated, autarkic compounds, but participated fully in regional marketing systems. Jesuit and Franciscan missionaries serving in eighteenth-century Sonora firmly believed that their commercial ties to the presidios and mines were essential to maintaining the mission economy. Notwithstanding their objectives, the flow of foodstuffs and merchandise in and out of the missions, although it financed church construction and provided gifts for Indian neophytes, in the end undermined native subsistence. The missionaries' emphasis on the production of commodities impelled serrano peasants to seek their livelihood outside the pueblos, weakening

Sonoran missionaries, both the sons of Loyola and the Franciscans who carried on their work after 1767, labored to sustain a system of agrarian communities built on the foundations established by indigenous patterns of subsistence. Their objective was to increase native productivity and administer the surplus, passing foodstuffs and cattle from well established missions to newer pueblos on the frontier. The Jesuits' regular shipment of grains, cattle, and Indian laborers from the prosperous villages of the Yaqui and Mayo valleys to the fledgling missions of Pimería Alta and Baja California during the early eighteenth century exemplified their management of a regional economy grounded in the productive capacities of individual households and communities. The Jesuits' disposal of mission surpluses obeyed a "higher purpose," which was essentially noneconomic in nature: Christian evangelization and the salvation of heathen souls. The missionaries understood their task in religious terms, and they invested a significant part of mission earnings in the construction and adornment of churches. Evolving from simple ramadas of forked posts and woven thatch, permanent churches built of adobe, stone, and fired brick symbolized both the Christian sanctuary and the structured town life which the Spaniards strove to impose on native communities.

The organization of labor within the villages reflected the missionaries' economic and political objectives. They worked through Indian officers appointed in each mission district to raise surplus harvests destined for redistribution or sale.

From Cynthia Rdding's "Wandering Peoples".
___________________________________________

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

El Tropical Tramp wrote

Good morning Oro de Tayopa: The loot from Panama was carried across the isthmus to the ships in the Caribbean. There Morgan had most of it transferred to his ship for later distribution. Unfortunately he slipped anchor in the night deserting his fellow pirates and the loot has never surfaced.

He did show up in Jamaica with a huge treasure, none that could be identified as the loot from Panama, which bought him the governorship. Needless to say his men were a bit unhappy with him.

The loot is still uncounted for, but I know just about where it is. A long story, where confidence with the Indians paid off. I have posted the story once in here in TN in shipwrecks. Obviously not the precise Lat & Long, naturally.

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo* who as usual is modifying the subject with anecdotes.

The ship & treasure referred to in this incident, were likely not a part of the massive loot captured by Morgan, the Trinity escape took place before Morgan's successful attack.

<Side note but the amounts of treasure being taken out of the Americas by the Spanish and Portuguese is so much that it is difficult to believe today; just one ship might be carrying the equivalent of $400 million in today's money, not counting the smuggled cargo which could even exceed the official manifest.>

Cactusjumper wrote

The organization of labor within the villages reflected the missionaries' economic and political objectives. They worked through Indian officers appointed in each mission district to raise surplus harvests destined for redistribution or sale.

From Cynthia Rdding's "Wandering Peoples".

They worked through Indian officers, appointed in each mission district; do you maintain that visitas were not being operated by Indian officers, appointed to this position? You have stated that Tumacacori was not being run by the Jesuits, and the evidence there of ore processing must be attributed to the Franciscans.

Profit is quite a difficult thing to define; some missions definitely ran at a loss, but even their bookkeeping methods are doubtful; for instance, the Jesuits often listed cash endowments as "debts". Jesuits around the world seem to have rather enjoyed engaging in profit making; for example,

] A Letter Missive in regard to the Conversion

and Baptism of the Grand Sagamore of new

France, who was, before the arrival of

the French, its chief and sovereign.

Sir and Brother, I did not wish the ship to depart without giving you some news of this country which I believe will be acceptable, as I know that you are a good Catholic. <snip>I should expect to have a yearly trade in Beaver and other Skins amounting to seven or eight thousand livres, with the [page 131] surplus which would remain to me after their support. am very sorry that did not know before my departure what know now; if had, should have left no stone unturned to bring with me two or three farmers, and two hogsheads of wheat, which is a mere trifle. assure you it is delightful to engage in trade over here and to make such handsome profits. If you wish to take a hand in it, let me know your intentions by the bearer, who desires to return and traffic here in pursuance of what he has seen. [6] shall say no more, except to pray God to give you, Sir and Brother, a long life and perfect health. From Port Royal, New France, this 28th of, June, 1610.

Your very affectlonate Brother and servant,

BERTRAND.
<SOURCE: Reprinted from Première Mission des Jésuites

au Canada, by Auguste Carayon, S. J. Paris: L'Écureux,

1864.
FIRST MISSION OF THE JESUITS

IN CANADA.* 26>

<The Jesuits in French Colonial Canada were forbidden from engaging in the fur trade, even to the point of not to touch it with their fingertips or gaze upon it too long, yet they found excuse to engage in the business.>

The Jesuits have a record of being quite disobedient to both royal authorities and even the Catholic church; of being less than honest about their wealth; of being somewhat deceitful in their bookkeeping; of omitting the mention of mines owned by the colleges of the Order in Mexico, and of authoring (modern) histories in which omissions are repeated and only the positive aspects are mentioned. Were this any other organization, I wonder if anyone would be so willing to grant them the benefit of the doubt and take their word on so much history?
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy

"They worked through Indian officers, appointed in each mission district; do you maintain that visitas were not being operated by Indian officers, appointed to this position? You have stated that Tumacacori was not being run by the Jesuits, and the evidence there of ore processing must be attributed to the Franciscans."

"do you maintain that visitas were not being operated by Indian officers, appointed to this position?"

No.

The rest of your statement is correct, but I do not ascribe to the story that gold or silver ore was ever being processed there. I concede that it's possible, just don't see any convincing evidence for it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy

"They worked through Indian officers, appointed in each mission district; do you maintain that visitas were not being operated by Indian officers, appointed to this position? You have stated that Tumacacori was not being run by the Jesuits, and the evidence there of ore processing must be attributed to the Franciscans."

"do you maintain that visitas were not being operated by Indian officers, appointed to this position?"

No.

The rest of your statement is correct, but I do not ascribe to the story that gold or silver ore was ever being processed there. I concede that it's possible, just don't see any convincing evidence for it.

Take care,

Joe

Umm -
Other persons point to the fact that the National Park Service, during the progress of the exploratory trenching work directed by Archeologist Paul Beaubien in 1934-5, found remains of adobe and brick structures used in copper smelting operations, in the patio area east of the church. To this can be added the fact that small pieces of slag have been found scattered widely over most of the grounds.

On September 19, 1948, Mr. C. W. Walker visited Tumacacori and showed the author a location about 100 yards southeast of the mission church, on a mound which is presumably part of the unexcavated east wall of the long-abandoned Indian town. Mr. Walker picked up a few small ore and slag specimens from the top of this mound, and showed them to the writer. He then explained that in 1918 he had shipped approximately 120 tons of slag from old slag dumps adjacent to three round adobe furnaces along this stretch of high ground. He says the slag contained about 8 per cent lead, 3 per cent copper, about 8 ounces in silver, and about 1/6 ounce of gold, per ton.

There is no doubt that mining has been done in this district, and that ore was reduced on the mission grounds.

<Mission grounds here referring to Tumacacori rather than Guevavi see NPS link above, extract>

I don't know what you would consider "convincing evidence" but that is enough for me. By process of elimination, the Jesuits are the most probable parties responsible for the ore processing, which would fit the "legends" very well. If we had Indian legends of French adventurers who came and mined there, leaving the furnaces and slag (and ORE) would you have problems accepting that as a possible truth? It is a stretch to try to deny that Jesuits were involved in mining (and what comes from mines) with several problems. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must have been unknown mystery Spaniards.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Here are some quotes from Polzer's "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions in Northwestern New Spain"

1. The position taken by Father Visitor Luis Lucas Alvarez who had ordered that ALL forms of business or profit-making were prohibited to the missions. Such a prohibition precluded the missionary from earning his own keep or assisting the pueblos.

2. Garcia's "final precepts" set down specific rules regarding income and expense and the remital of money in Mexico.............On the missions, itemized statements had to be kept on the income from cattle, sheep, horses, and so forth.


Here is a quote from the famously austere Padre Eusebio Kino SJ:

The greatness of the new missions will shine not only in the eternity of heaven, but also in the most desolate and remote regions of the world. It will live on in the splendid construction of temples, churches, buildings, and houses. It will reflect in the solemnities of the saints, in gay fiestas, and in the treats of religious banquets; it will be heard in music and the choirs of singers. IT WILL BE SEEN IN THE BOUNTIFUL SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL WEALTH OF OPULENT MISSIONS WHICH, WITH REASON, WILL BE A SOURCE OF PRIDE.

Does that sound like a man advocating poverty of the church? NOT TO ME!

3. Mission funds were paid directly by the Patronato to the orders in charge of the missions. Secular funds came from benefices specified by the Bishop.

4. In February, 1715, Don Pedro Tapis, the newly appointed Bishop of Durango, set out on a visitation of his Diocese. Writing the King from the Real of Santa Rosa de Cusiguriachic on August 26th, the trail weary Bishop recounted the differences he had witnessed during his journey of nine-hundred miles through the missions of the North. At Santa Rosa he had reached the Northernmost point on his trip, but nearly two-thirds of his visitation still lay before him. He had traveled through the "most harsh mountains that were almost impassable" BUT HE HAD SEEN MISSION PUEBLOS THAT RIVALED THE CATHEDRAL OF DURANGO. THE ENTIRE NORTHERN SECTOR OF HIS DIOCESE WAS PLAINS AND DESERTS FAR REMOVED FROM MEXICO CITY AND VERACRUZ; CONSEQUENTLY, THEY LACKED TRADE AND COMMUNICATION, WHICH ADDED TO HIS WONDERMENT............................................ rather he was amazed to find in such desolate areas that the missions were well provided........................................ The Fathers were directing the planting of wheat, corn, and vegetables; cattle raising was a major source of income. Surplus produce was offered for sale and the proceeds were used for building and furnishing churches.

"The Indians of the Jesuit Missions were well trained and the communities worked cooperatively so that the more needy missions, and even poorer Spaniards, could draw on the more opulent missions for support. The Bishop of Durango reminded the King that the common story held that the missions were too well off and not in need of Royal Support.

I LOVE THE NEXT PART:

During the same journey Tapis had visited twelve Franciscan Missions. "Everything is so much to the contrary, " he reported. Generally the churches operated by the Franciscans were very run down, poorly adorned, and lacked furnishings. The Indians of their missions were poor and went about naked with little instruction or education. The blessed sacrament was not kept in a reserve in their pueblos.

Now Joe, does it sound like the Franciscans were operating any mines? NOT TO ME!

The following are specific rules and precepts;

5. .......... At this time, the Fathers should disclose their temporal needs, e.g. clothing, Mass Wine, and medicines for the sick, etc. so that in lands so remote and poor the alms which the King our lord has designated in the Royal Treasury of Mexico can be used to fill these needs. Because we profess religious poverty, these memorias will be remitted to the procurator general of Mexico duly signed by the Superior so that all will come with the blessing of obedience.

6. The Indians should be persuaded with gentleness but never harassed with tasks and duties in order to make a profit or engage in business BECAUSE THIS IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED.

7. "Every kind of profit making, business with the laity, sales or bartering of items is prohibited. The prohibition is such that immediate superiors cannot give permission for this. The only permissible sale is of surplus for the ornamentation and furnishing of the church which is to be done under the supervision of the superior.

8. from now on, the Father Visitor stipulated during the junta the quantity which each mission can plant according to what seems sufficient to him for the maintenance of each missionary so that there will be no excesses that can occasion murmuring among the laity.

9. The Fathers who might have a mill or bakery cannot sell flour nor give it away by bartering.

10. In order to avoid every occasion of scandal and complaint in regard to profit-making and business and the rest of what is ordered in Rule 22, bargaining is strictly prohibited. As long as the Fathers have sufficient supplies for their consumption they cannot bargain for their maintenance under any pretext or title by selling what they have gotten from their harvest.

Okay, I guess that's enough contradictory statements by the Order for tonight (I just got through rules and precepts up to 1698). I'm tired of typing.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Lets go through this step by step:

I stated:

Joe,

The King didn't actually provide anything but money for new missions. In some cases as much as 3,000 pesos per year to get them started.

Best-Mike

You replied:

Mike,

"The King didn't actually provide anything but money for new missions."

While the King did provide money for the missions, I believe you are mistaken about what else he may have provided:

So, according to that post, you are stating that the King provided the missions with something other than money (which is not correct). The King only provided the money. What the Jesuits did with it was up to them.

My reply:

Joe,

All I'm saying is that the King provided money for each mission and missionary father. With that money they bought supplies for the missions. So, of course the King provided whatever was bought because he paid for it.

Then a puzzling reply from you:

Mike,

I believe that's what I said, and how I understand Father Keller's written statement......The King provided.

No, that's not what you said (I think you may be mistaken about what else the King may have provided).

I'm not playing semantics nor splitting hairs my friend. You just stated that the King provided something to the missions other than ready cash which is not correct.

Same thing as if Pedro Alvarez donated 2000 pesos and the Jesuit Father had a "rather ponderous" silver chandelier made with that money. He would rightly say that Pedro Alvarez provided the chandelier even though Pedro only donated 2000 pesos.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

OK Mike,

You are correct.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote <in reply to Gollum>

Mike,

"The King didn't actually provide anything but money for new missions."

While the King did provide money for the missions, I believe you are mistaken about what else he may have provided:

Well, would soldiers count as something provided by the King? They were Spanish regular soldiers, paid by the King though the padres were responsible for the actual handing over of the cash to the men in many cases, so this would be classed as providing military protection and "muscle" for any recalcitrants, troublemakers, "witches" etc though the number of soldiers at each mission seem almost incredibly few for the circumstances.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Well, would soldiers count as something provided by the King? They were Spanish regular soldiers, paid by the King though the padres were responsible for the actual handing over of the cash to the men in many cases, so this would be classed as providing military protection and "muscle" for any recalcitrants, troublemakers, "witches" etc though the number of soldiers at each mission seem almost incredibly few for the circumstances."

While that was generally true, it was not so in every case. The Lower California missions received no subsidy from the government. Those needed funds came from the meager "Pious Fund". In addition to using that fund to found the missions, the Jesuits had to use it to partially pay for the soldiers needed for their protection.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

"Well, would soldiers count as something provided by the King? They were Spanish regular soldiers, paid by the King though the padres were responsible for the actual handing over of the cash to the men in many cases, so this would be classed as providing military protection and "muscle" for any recalcitrants, troublemakers, "witches" etc though the number of soldiers at each mission seem almost incredibly few for the circumstances."

While that was generally true, it was not so in every case. The Lower California missions received no subsidy from the government. Those needed funds came from the meager "Pious Fund". In addition to using that fund to found the missions, the Jesuits had to use it to partially pay for the soldiers needed for their protection.

Take care,

Joe

Well I must respectfully disagree on this one; while it is true that Spain was short on funds at the beginning of the Jesuit Baja missions, the king paid a subsidy for many years even after the Baja missions really were turning a profit (even "on the books", from 1758 on).

quote
Where did the money to run the missions come from?

The missions were an official function of the Spanish Empire, and usually were funded by the state. During the 18th century, however, when the California missions were founded, the Spanish were low on funds. As a result, the money was appropriated from a large private endowment called the Pious Fund, originally established in Baja California by the Jesuits and taken over by the government when they were banished. An annual stipend of goods worth $300 to $400 was sent to each padre. The state paid for the expenses of the military men assigned to the missions and presidios. At the start, each mission received a grant of $1,000 from the Pious Fund to purchase bells, tools, seeds, vestments, and other needs. Some of the missions amassed considerable wealth through the skillful administration of crops and herds of cattle. None of this money went to the padres, however. Detailed accounts of the mission's receipts and expenditures were kept and sent as regular reports to the commanders of the nearest presidio.
<http://www.nps.gov/archive/jeff/lew...pansion/EarlyExplorers/CaliforniaMissions.htm>

As for how "meagre" that Pious Fund truly was, in the litigation after the Mexican-American war, it was judged to be worth $1,435,033 as of 1842. <see the Wiki article>

From the Catholic Encyclopedia
Anxious to secure a foothold in the territory lest a foreign power take possession, but having learned from experience that the military could not succeed, the Spanish Government, through the viceroy, invited the Society of Jesus to establish to undertake the conquest and the settlement of the country. Urged by Fathers Kino and Salvatierra the Superiors of the Society at length accepted the charge. Thereupon, the Viceroy Moctezuma, on the 5th of February, 1697, formally authorized the Society of Jesus to establish missions in California on the condition that the royal treasury not be expected to pay any expenses incurred without order of the king, and that possession of the territory be taken in the name of the King of Spain. In turn the Jesuits were to enjoy the privilege of enlisting soldiers to act as guards for the missions at the expense of the Society, and at time of war these soldiers were to be considered on the same footing with those of the regular army. The Jesuits were to have absolute authority on the peninsula in temporal as well as spiritual affairs, and were empowered to choose men suitable for the administration of justice. Father Juan Maria Salvatierra was appointed superior of the California missions. He at once began to collect funds to place the undertaking on a firm basis. It would require ten thousand dollars, he thought, to furnish a revenue of five hundred dollars a year to maintain one priest at each mission. The Rev. Juan Caballero of Querétaro donated twenty thousand dollars for two missions, and the Confraternity of Our Lady of Sorrows in the city of Mexico supplied ten thousand dollars for the founding and maintaining of a third establishment. This was the beginning of the celebrated Pius Fund of California. Other benefactors in the course of time provided necessary capital for additional missions until the fund, which was judiciously invested in Mexican real estate, with its accumulations amount to half a million dollars by the year 1767. A Jesuit, the Rev. Juan de Ugarte, was appointed to manage the fund and act as procurator for the missionaries. After collecting minor donations and goods to the value of fifteen thousand dollars, and having enlisted five trustworthy guards under the command of Captain Luis Tortolero y Torres, Father Salvatierra crossed the Gulf of California and landed at San Dionisio Bay on the 19th of October, 1697.


I am re-posting another bit here;
In a letter of December 29 1768 he remarked that the Californias which had always passed for a sterile country would be able from 1769 on to maintain themselves without costing the king a sou. Judge what a profit the Jesuits must have had he said, and yet they had drawn a subsidy from the king for many years on the pretext of the land's sterility 61 Again January 25 1769 he mentioned Galvez's work in the peninsula saying how pleased the king would be with that province because of its pearls gold and silver a wealth which the Jesuits had in great part concealed 62 <The Founding of Spanish California, Charles Edward Chapman, pp 86, online at googlie books>

Side note but Croix did not consider CA to be so rich later on, but the Jesuit missions were running a profit prior to their expulsion; and they did operate at a loss from the founding up to 1758. From the same source, we have figures on the Royal subsidy (which was on top of the Pious Fund)

When it became evident that the Jesuits could not sustain themselves without royal aid the king and his councillors came to the rescue. Philip V himself attended a session of the Council of the Indies in 1702 at which it was decided to grant a subsidy of 6000 pesos a year and two additional missionaries naturally at royal expense. Shortly afterward an additional 7000 pesos thirty soldiers and religious paraphernalia were added by the king and in later years the annual royal subsidy reached as high as 30,000 pesos thus providing for the soldiers sailors and missionaries. With this aid the Pious Fund was able to furnish the rest. It is to be noted that there was almost no financial return on the royal investment and that expensive wars in Europe were all along taxing the treasury to its uttermost
<ibid, pp 177 or read the full thing at http://books.google.com/books?id=tWsLAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

This source states the king provided religious paraphernalia to the Baja missions, which would be at odds with the only-cash subsidy argument.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Roy,

Please quote the relevant passage.

The ONLY Church Ornaments or Vestments I have ever seen directly given to the Religious is as I have stated previously to Fray Junipero Sera. He was allowed to take what he needed from the former Jesuit Missions in 1768 in order to found the California Mission System.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Roy,

Please quote the relevant passage.

The ONLY Church Ornaments or Vestments I have ever seen directly given to the Religious is as I have stated previously to Fray Junipero Sera. He was allowed to take what he needed from the former Jesuit Missions in 1768 in order to found the California Mission System.

Mike

I just gave you the statement in the previous post;
When it became evident that the Jesuits could not sustain themselves without royal aid the king and his councillors came to the rescue. Philip V himself attended a session of the Council of the Indies in 1702 at which it was decided to grant a subsidy of 6000 pesos a year and two additional missionaries naturally at royal expense. Shortly afterward an additional 7000 pesos thirty soldiers and religious paraphernalia were added by the king and in later years the annual royal subsidy reached as high as 30,000 pesos thus providing for the soldiers sailors and missionaries. With this aid the Pious Fund was able to furnish the rest. It is to be noted that there was almost no financial return on the royal investment and that expensive wars in Europe were all along taxing the treasury to its uttermost
<The Founding of Spanish California, Charles Edward Chapman pp177>

This is the only source I know of that mentions the king providing anything other than money, ships or soldiers to the missions. As this was during the Jesuit period in Baja, I presume this is well before Serra's 1768 epic undertaking. It could be meant that the king provided this paraphernalia by paying for it, rather than physically.

In looking for what ever "religious paraphernalia" that is being referred to, I did find an interesting reference;

79 Galvez to Serra Sta Ana Oct 10 1768 and Galvez decree La Paz Nov 19 1768 The decree recites the discovery of various amounts of gold dust and of gold and silver bullion accumulated by the Jesuits and not accounted for to the royal treasury as required by law. It recites further as fact the maintenance of the missions by the trabajo <labor> and sudor <sweat> de los miserables Indios at the same time that the Indians are neither fed nor clothed. Wherefore it is ordered that the gold and silver aforesaid <7650 pesos> be converted to the use of the Indians and that sinodos <salaries> of padres etc be paid from the Pious Fund MA Museo Docs Rel d las Mis de Califs Qto i
California under Spain and Mexico, 1535-1847, Irving Berdine Richman pp 405

So it appears that the Spaniards search for hidden Jesuit gold and silver was not so utterly fruitless, at least not in Baja, where the Jesuits were supposed to be in such dire financial straits. I haven't found the actual decree (yet) and may not be able to, but it is interesting that gold dust, gold and silver bullion were found in the Jesuit missions after their departure, and while the amount may not be massive it shows us that the padres did conceal gold and silver from the authorities, and that at least a bit of it was found.
Roy

 

[gollum]

Roy,

The King didn't provide the ship, sailors, or soldiers directly. He funded them.

The following passage is from Father Venegas SJ's Book "A Natural and Civil History of California:............"

It is resolved, pursuant to his majesty's orders, that the missions of California be supplied with everything necessary for the pay of twenty five soldiers, with a captain, seamen, boys, and shipwrights, for a vessel of a construction suitable to the use she is intended for, and and also a smaller for conveying provisions: and that if the allowance of thirteen thousand dollars be not sufficient to defray those expenses, the deficiency be supplied from the treasury; and that the additional charge not retard the execution, that all delay, as far as possible, is to be avoided, to prevent the total loss of all the labour taken by the jesuits, without any considerable expense to the royal revenue, for this work; the sums expended having been raised by contributions, though they amounted to above five hundred thousand dollars it being his majesty's pleasure expressed in repeated orders, that not only those missions be maintained, but as far as possible extended; likewise that all diligence be used in discovering some harbor ..................................... And, as to the appointments of the missionaries in the missions hereafter to be founded, regard will be had for the great inconveniencies and hardships attending the discharge of their of their office in the country, and the difficulty of conveying provisions, apparel, and other necessaries, especially as it is to be done by shipping, in this case differing from those whose missions lay up the country. But with regards to the salt pits, asked for the sanctuary of Loretto, (they being a regality belonging to his excellency) we leave it to his pleasure, that he may bestow this favour for a limited time, or forever."

That quote was by the Viceroy in 1703 that basically restated the King's wishes from the previous year. So, I guess it depends on whose translation you want to go by. The second bold passage that spoke of provisions was just saying that through the King's Treasury, regards will be taken as to how difficult those things were to obtain (in other words; stock up on those things). I can see how that might have been translated either way. I don't have the original, so I can't say.

According to Father Venegas SJ's Book, the King DID allow Loretto the use of his salt pits.

Best-Mike